AnimeSuki Forums

Demongod86 · 2011-07-22, 02:35

It's back! First episode: Napoleon vs. the man himself, George Washington!

The winner:

Spoiler:

Next ep:

William the Conqueror vs. Joan of Arc! (Gotta go with William here...hardened battlefield general vs. 17-year-old waif in a suit of armor? Kidding me?)

don_Durandal · 2011-07-22, 05:30

Well it's an entertainment show made for the US public. The outcome was inevitable.
The quote "history will be rewritten" was on the mark. They made no research on actual tactics of the time period, not to mention on the protagonists themselves.

It was quite funny how they kept hammering that Napoleon had massive numbers or such, completely forgetting how in Italy he took command of a demoralized, underfed, under-equipped and outnumbered revolutionary army and still won the campaign. George Washington on the other hand lost most of his battles until he had French reinforcements.

What was great is how they underlined the importance of the rifle. As the British showed in the Peninsular Campaign, rifleman would take quite an important role over the next century. And it was the Americans that first understood that.
Whether it would have given Washington an advantage or not is dubious though. They completely failed to underline the importance of the bayonet at the time. Due to the long reload time of rifles, riflemen were very vulnerable to charges, which just happen to be amongst Napoleon's favourite tactics.

What would have given an edge to Washington is his attrition strategy. He lost his battles, but few men in the process. Napoleon on the other hand was finally brought down due to wearing out his resources (including human resources).

Oh well. Entertainment is just that, and the show is very goodl at it.

RWBladewing · 2011-07-22, 06:42

I guess I appreciate that they're at least pretending to include x-factors like strategy and leadership into the equation this time but I kinda had to laugh when they just assigned a bunch of really arbitrary numbers to different qualities on the fly. That and constantly referring to Napoleon as a maniac who frequently threw away all his own soldiers, as if who was going to win wasn't obvious already given who the show is made by and for.

Still love it though, won't be missing an episode.

Kyero Fox · 2011-07-22, 07:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Demongod86

It's back! First episode: Napoleon vs. the man himself, George Washington!

The winner:

Spoiler:

Next ep:

William the Conqueror vs. Joan of Arc! (Gotta go with William here...hardened battlefield general vs. 17-year-old waif in a suit of armor? Kidding me?)

But she has....boobs? doesnt that count?

Sheba · 2011-07-22, 08:35

I already called Washington's win in irc, just from the rifles alone. So I am not surprised.

Prediction time

William the Conqueror vs Jeanne d'Arc

Jeanne d'Arc.

The plate armor may make the difference

U.S. Army Rangers vs. North Korean Special Operation Force

Rangers.

Oh come on, man.

Genghis Khan vs. Hannibal

Gengis Khan.

Hannibal's military genius will be heavily challenged by Mongol Terror.

That, and the horse can just run around the elephant until it wear it down.

Saddam Hussein vs. Pol Pot

Saddam Hussein.

Dad will go apeshit, and his PTSD will kick in, if Pol Pot win.

Lawrence of Arabia vs. Theodore Roosevelt

Ted

Ivan the Terrible vs. Hernán Cortés

Ivan

Crazy Horse vs. Pancho Villa

Crazy Horse, judging from the show's past records with matches featuring Native Americans.

French Foreign Legion vs. Gurkha

Pfffft, the Gurkhas.

Vampires vs. Zombies

As much as I love vampires.

Zombies, because they have reserves.

Sumeragi · 2011-07-22, 08:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheba

U.S. Army Rangers vs. North Korean Special Operation Force

Rangers.

Oh come on, man.

I personal would like to contest that particular match, but then it all comes down to equipment, I guess. The only trump card of the DPRK forces would be the AN-2.

Kyero Fox · 2011-07-22, 09:40

There's a reason why william has that title

but I'm not betting against Jeanna, she is how a lot more female protags should be.

The thing that might annoy me is the gender arguments that are bound to show up, her genders got nothiin to do with anything.

Hooves · 2011-07-22, 12:46

I'm going to place my bets of Jeanne d'Arc on this one. Like Sheba said, the plate armor will probably make the most difference in that match.

Mr. Wang · 2011-07-22, 13:26

I really, really like this show. However, on Spike.com, I still happen to be one of its most vocal speakers against Deadliest Warrior's historical inaccuracies...

On one hand, I think that Joan of Arc is a really, really tough girl. On the attack of Les Tourelles, a British-occupied stronghold, she was wounded in the neck by an arrow. In the battle of Jargeau, she survived a blow from a stone canonball to her helmet while climbing a ladder. During the retaking of Paris, she took a wound on her leg from a crossbow... So there's no question that she was definitely in the actual conflicts, in the battles... the thing is, I think she's supposed to be more or less seen as a morale-booster, commander, and standard-bearer. I don't know about her prowess as a warrior, she was mainly known for tactics. I believe she also admitted never taking a human life herself, during her trials prior to her execution (the reliability of the records from her captors though are shaky at best).

Still, compare that, to big Duke of Normandy, William the Conqueror... who's undoubtedly killed dozens of soldiers before acquiring the throne of England. I think the answer might be clear on this one, but I'm worried for the potential sexism accusations if he wins this battle (which is sorta ironic, because Joan herself was no feminist, and still expelled women from joining the French army). Ah, double-standards...

But, even though I still gripe ,I'm still aware that this is merely an entertainment show. I don't have too many high expectations, but it's always nice once in a while to be blown away. I mean, despite my issues with Napoleon vs. Washington, I still thought it was a damn good episode, and I was entertained in the end. I think that's what matters, really.

Flinch · 2011-07-22, 13:44

She was hit with a bolt from an arbalest, not a crossbow. Pretty big difference when you compare the force behind the two, but that only adds to her reputation.

Kyero Fox · 2011-07-22, 15:10

I'm worried they might let her win for more female audience...

Flinch · 2011-07-22, 15:19

Like how they forgot to mention that Washington had to fight to rally his men throughout most of the war, while Napoleon could "make men die for pieces of ribbon". When you bring that into effect, not to mention that in the Italian Campaign, Napoleon did ride ahead of his columns to increase morale while cannonballs barely missed his head. They also forgot to include the Imperial Guard, which never retreated (Waterloo excluded). Had it been force on force, there would be no question that Washington would have lost.

ChainLegacy · 2011-07-22, 19:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flinch

Like how they forgot to mention that Washington had to fight to rally his men throughout most of the war, while Napoleon could "make men die for pieces of ribbon". When you bring that into effect, not to mention that in the Italian Campaign, Napoleon did ride ahead of his columns to increase morale while cannonballs barely missed his head. They also forgot to include the Imperial Guard, which never retreated (Waterloo excluded). Had it been force on force, there would be no question that Washington would have lost.

I agree with your last sentence, but I'm not sure we can necessarily discount Washington's charisma based on the low morale of the rebels. After all, many of his men were English ethnically... the sell on revolution in the case of the United States was incited more by intellectuals like Thomas Paine than widespread popular discontent.

I think it's actually a unique revolution in that the people breaking away weren't natives enslaved by a foreign country but immigrants themselves from the occupying nation. That inherently makes motivating a revolution harder IMO; of course mercantilism favored the homeland (ie. taxation without representation), but living conditions in England at the time weren't very good either unless you were at the top of the social ladder.

Napoleon, on the other hand, inherited a nation that had just recovered from a chaotic period and perhaps was nostalgic for some hyper-nationalism of past eras.

Either way, I could care less who they picked as the winner. I keep trying to watch the show and hope for it to improve, but it's really just a ridiculous concept to begin with. Pitting warriors one on one, and calculating based on weapon 'kills' on a computer can hardly be called a scientific estimate. I kind of wish they got rid of the winner altogether, and just showcased the weaponry as they already do and then for fun play a battle or two showing how either could win. Especially in the ancient world, they seem to forget that pitting warriors one on one is inherently different than in an actual military conflict.

Endless Soul · 2011-07-22, 19:38

I was rather amused with the Spartan vs. Ninja episode.

Sheba · 2011-07-23, 04:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Endless Soul

I was rather amused with the Spartan vs. Ninja episode.

Oh yes, the nerdrage had been glorious. At least it rehabilited the shield as a protection AND a weapon, after being deemed useless too often in fiction.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChainLegacy

Napoleon, on the other hand, inherited a nation that had just recovered from a chaotic period and perhaps was nostalgic for some hyper-nationalism of past eras.

You should mention that France was surrounded by european monarchies that wanted nothing but kill off that revolution so it didn't spread over Europe. And France wanted to be over and done with the horrors of the Revolution.

On-topic, I agree that the main draw of the show, for me, is to watch the damage done by the weapons, also surprises like the Spartan shield. I mean, who did not WTFed over the kilij and the katar? And who did not pumped his fist in the air over the knight's sword and Wallace's claymore after years of "European swords are only strong because they are about brute force and blunt trauma duuuuur" bullshit?

Demongod86 · 2011-07-27, 23:25

Episode 2 ends.

And yer winrar is!

Spoiler:

Sheba · 2011-07-28, 04:37

I called it! Hah!

Hooves · 2011-07-28, 19:41

Technology always seems to win in the end like in the battle between Sun Tzu vs Vlad the Impaler.

~~Melpomene~~ · 2011-07-28, 21:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hooves

Technology always seems to win in the end like in the battle between Sun Tzu vs Vlad the Impaler.

I desire to contest that then again it's just a program for entertainment. I think they should pit people together of the similar era.

Hooves · 2011-07-28, 21:28

If the show itself tends to be biased when it comes to USA vs (said-country) then I will believe they will be biased towards technology and the deadliness on weapons as well. It would be hard to find a historical figure in the same time-length that's memorable (unless we pit Julius Caesar against Hannibal).

2011-07-22, 02:35	Link #1
Demongod86 Gundam Boobs and Boom FTW Join Date: Dec 2005	Deadliest Warrior (season 3!) It's back! First episode: Napoleon vs. the man himself, George Washington! The winner: Spoiler: USA! USA! USA! Made me wiki the great man up one more time...realized just how PO'd he'd be if he came back to life today and saw the state the country was in but that's a discussion for another time... Next ep: William the Conqueror vs. Joan of Arc! (Gotta go with William here...hardened battlefield general vs. 17-year-old waif in a suit of armor? Kidding me?) __________________ Signature stolen by a horde of carnivorous bunnies. It is an unscientifically proven fact that they are attracted to signatures which break the signature rules.

2011-07-22, 09:40	Link #7
Kyero Fox Tastes Cloudy Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Snake Way Age: 35	There's a reason why william has that title but I'm not betting against Jeanna, she is how a lot more female protags should be. The thing that might annoy me is the gender arguments that are bound to show up, her genders got nothiin to do with anything. __________________

2011-07-22, 13:26	Link #9
Mr. Wang Scholar of Yanderes Author Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Haramihama	I really, really like this show. However, on Spike.com, I still happen to be one of its most vocal speakers against Deadliest Warrior's historical inaccuracies... On one hand, I think that Joan of Arc is a really, really tough girl. On the attack of Les Tourelles, a British-occupied stronghold, she was wounded in the neck by an arrow. In the battle of Jargeau, she survived a blow from a stone canonball to her helmet while climbing a ladder. During the retaking of Paris, she took a wound on her leg from a crossbow... So there's no question that she was definitely in the actual conflicts, in the battles... the thing is, I think she's supposed to be more or less seen as a morale-booster, commander, and standard-bearer. I don't know about her prowess as a warrior, she was mainly known for tactics. I believe she also admitted never taking a human life herself, during her trials prior to her execution (the reliability of the records from her captors though are shaky at best). Still, compare that, to big Duke of Normandy, William the Conqueror... who's undoubtedly killed dozens of soldiers before acquiring the throne of England. I think the answer might be clear on this one, but I'm worried for the potential sexism accusations if he wins this battle (which is sorta ironic, because Joan herself was no feminist, and still expelled women from joining the French army). Ah, double-standards... But, even though I still gripe ,I'm still aware that this is merely an entertainment show. I don't have too many high expectations, but it's always nice once in a while to be blown away. I mean, despite my issues with Napoleon vs. Washington, I still thought it was a damn good episode, and I was entertained in the end. I think that's what matters, really. __________________

2011-07-22, 13:44	Link #10
Flinch Onii-chan~ Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Einzbern Castle Age: 32	She was hit with a bolt from an arbalest, not a crossbow. Pretty big difference when you compare the force behind the two, but that only adds to her reputation. __________________

2011-07-22, 15:10	Link #11
Kyero Fox Tastes Cloudy Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Snake Way Age: 35	I'm worried they might let her win for more female audience... __________________

2011-07-22, 05:30	Link #2
don_Durandal Zetsubou gunsou Join Date: May 2009 Location: Switzerland Age: 43	Well it's an entertainment show made for the US public. The outcome was inevitable. The quote "history will be rewritten" was on the mark. They made no research on actual tactics of the time period, not to mention on the protagonists themselves. It was quite funny how they kept hammering that Napoleon had massive numbers or such, completely forgetting how in Italy he took command of a demoralized, underfed, under-equipped and outnumbered revolutionary army and still won the campaign. George Washington on the other hand lost most of his battles until he had French reinforcements. What was great is how they underlined the importance of the rifle. As the British showed in the Peninsular Campaign, rifleman would take quite an important role over the next century. And it was the Americans that first understood that. Whether it would have given Washington an advantage or not is dubious though. They completely failed to underline the importance of the bayonet at the time. Due to the long reload time of rifles, riflemen were very vulnerable to charges, which just happen to be amongst Napoleon's favourite tactics. What would have given an edge to Washington is his attrition strategy. He lost his battles, but few men in the process. Napoleon on the other hand was finally brought down due to wearing out his resources (including human resources). Oh well. Entertainment is just that, and the show is very goodl at it.

2011-07-22, 06:42	Link #3
RWBladewing Salt Levels Critical Join Date: Oct 2007	I guess I appreciate that they're at least pretending to include x-factors like strategy and leadership into the equation this time but I kinda had to laugh when they just assigned a bunch of really arbitrary numbers to different qualities on the fly. That and constantly referring to Napoleon as a maniac who frequently threw away all his own soldiers, as if who was going to win wasn't obvious already given who the show is made by and for. Still love it though, won't be missing an episode.

2011-07-22, 08:35	Link #5
Sheba RUN, YOU FOOLS! Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Formerly Iwakawa base and Chaldea. Now Teyvat, the Astral Express & the Outpost Age: 44	I already called Washington's win in irc, just from the rifles alone. So I am not surprised. Prediction time William the Conqueror vs Jeanne d'Arc Jeanne d'Arc. The plate armor may make the difference U.S. Army Rangers vs. North Korean Special Operation Force Rangers. Oh come on, man. Genghis Khan vs. Hannibal Gengis Khan. Hannibal's military genius will be heavily challenged by Mongol Terror. That, and the horse can just run around the elephant until it wear it down. Saddam Hussein vs. Pol Pot Saddam Hussein. Dad will go apeshit, and his PTSD will kick in, if Pol Pot win. Lawrence of Arabia vs. Theodore Roosevelt Ted Ivan the Terrible vs. Hernán Cortés Ivan Crazy Horse vs. Pancho Villa Crazy Horse, judging from the show's past records with matches featuring Native Americans. French Foreign Legion vs. Gurkha Pfffft, the Gurkhas. Vampires vs. Zombies As much as I love vampires. Zombies, because they have reserves.

2011-07-22, 15:19	Link #12
Flinch Onii-chan~ Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Einzbern Castle Age: 32	Like how they forgot to mention that Washington had to fight to rally his men throughout most of the war, while Napoleon could "make men die for pieces of ribbon". When you bring that into effect, not to mention that in the Italian Campaign, Napoleon did ride ahead of his columns to increase morale while cannonballs barely missed his head. They also forgot to include the Imperial Guard, which never retreated (Waterloo excluded). Had it been force on force, there would be no question that Washington would have lost. __________________

2011-07-22, 19:38	Link #14
Endless Soul Megane girl fan Join Date: May 2011 Location: Diagonally parked in a parallel universe. Age: 55	I was rather amused with the Spartan vs. Ninja episode. __________________ Signature by ganbaru

2011-07-27, 23:25	Link #16
Demongod86 Gundam Boobs and Boom FTW Join Date: Dec 2005	Episode 2 ends. And yer winrar is! Spoiler: Itsy bitsy pixy Joan ^-^. Technology saves the day. The actress playing Joan was godawful cute too __________________ Signature stolen by a horde of carnivorous bunnies. It is an unscientifically proven fact that they are attracted to signatures which break the signature rules.

2011-07-28, 04:37	Link #17
Sheba RUN, YOU FOOLS! Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Formerly Iwakawa base and Chaldea. Now Teyvat, the Astral Express & the Outpost Age: 44	I called it! Hah!