(L) Kamisama Dolls

[Kusa-San]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

they're doomed to fail - they're inevitably drawn back into the cycle of violence and paranoia that surrounds the village.

I'm sorry but you don't know that at all. It's what you think but you don't have real proof of what you're saying.

Futhermore, the kakashi are not evil or good, it's how you sue them that make them evil or good.

[Guardian Enzo]

Yes, they're not evil or good. It's the system that uses them that's evil. Is there any practical difference?

As for "know", well, of course not - it's an opinion based on the evidence in the series so far. But my view is that the series has attempted to convey the impression that for all that there are good people there, the place as a whole is effectively cursed. It's also attempted to portray Aki in shades of gray and not black and white, because he's a product of everything that's wrong with Karakami and the culture that exists there.

[EroKing]

I agree, it's not just Aki and Kyouhei that seem to be chained to the village for one reason or the other. Perhaps in Aki's and Kyouhei's case it has something to do with the evil looking kakashi (Amaterasu) back in episode 5. Also, not many people in that village seemed crazy (most of them very quite friendly) so what they should be trying to take away the powers of the ones in control.

I have no clue as to how they are going to handle this series further with just 4 episodes remaining. If for some reason they can't do a 24-26 episode series, instead of going for the standard 12-13 episodes they should try something like 16 or 18 episodes just so that they can flesh out the characters better and not rush things.

Anime is my biggest source of entertainment and many times it has been sad watching plot being rushed and too many details taken out from the original source.
Ah screw that, I just wanna see more of Hibino's big ones bouncing all over the place

[hoarfrost]

Originally Posted by Kusa-San

I'm sorry but you don't know that at all. It's what you think but you don't have real proof of what you're saying.

Futhermore, the kakashi are not evil or good, it's how you sue them that make them evil or good.

It's corroborated by what we've seen so far. The Hyuga's or at least their elder are the cause of most of the villages problems and don't give the impression that they will deescalate. They frequently give control of Kakashi to incompetent and belligerent controllers and now there's the implication that they set this whole chain of events into motion for the purpose of expanding their power. I can't see Aki and Kyohei ever escaping the influence of he village without at least eliminating the Hyuga seki and assassinating their head.

The whole village doesn't need to go but the system should be purged. There's been no benefit to it and a lot of grief. When have we seen the Kakashi do something beneficial that could not be accomplished through other means? Sure, you can do good with a Kakashi but you can do the same thing with technology or human ingenuity and avoid the problem that the Kakashi system has brought. The potential for abuse seems to outweigh the benefits.

I see this as a meta commentary on whether we need something like gods or traditions which give no material benefit yet have complications inherent to their existence. Koushiro outright states himself that the mere existence of "gods" among humans has brought trouble.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Forsaken_Infinity

It's not about being "right" in the moral sense but being "right" in the pragmatic sense.

It's sometimes possible to be right in both senses. I think that such a possibility exists in this anime.

I don't really see a way Aki and co. could ever get away from what they have been through (the harrowing experience will always haunt them) but they could at least lead a somewhat "normal" life and at least make an attempt at finding love and healing their hearts (I doubt it'd achieve much success) but they can't even do that so long as there is that village trying to "collect" them or otherwise meddling with their lives.

The problem isn't the village, as in the geographical location, the physical structures that constitute it, and all the people in it.

The problem is the sociocultural system in that village, and those who abuse it.

You can destroy a system (and remove from power the people abusing it) without doing any physical damage to people, places, or things (well, aside from the people in power, if they resist).

Aki's attitude would be like someone saying that Libya should have a nuclear bomb dropped on it because its government is horribly oppressive of many of its people. It's a very extreme and excessively violent view that Aki is taking.

So wiping it off the map is a valid - dare I say the only - thing they could do.

No, it's not.

Originally Posted by Kusa-San

We already know that not everyone is like that in the village. The main problem is mostly the elder and some influential people. "Wiping it of the map" is not what I call a "good solution". It's just the easiest one for people who don't care about other. Futhermore, if Aki killed all of them, he would spend the rest of his life in jail : what a great achievement for him (to be fair, it should already be the case )

I totally agree with you, and have honestly been pretty taken aback at some of the arguments I'm seeing on this thread.

Spoiler for Madoka Magica comparisons:

Coming from people who condemned Kyubey from Madoka Magica for the exact same sort of "the ends justify the means" approach that Aki is thinking of implementing here.

To Kyubey, Earth is but a tiny village compared to the universe at large...

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

This is more of a symbolic solution than a practical one, I admit.

It's a bad solution, period.

But I really do think the series, at the very least, is taking a nuanced view on this.

Unlike Aki's frankly black-and-white view on things. Yes, he's a gray character on the whole, but he's personally taken a very stark black-and-white view on things. For him, the ends justify the means.

Even Koushirou's comments to Kyouhei later in the episode indicate that he knows how rotten Karakami is, and everything attached to it.

Not everything attached to it is rotten. Utao is not rotten. Hibino is not rotten. Koushirou is not rotten. And the dolls are not intrinsically rotten either.

Bottom line - I don't think Karakami is "fixable" -

Sure it is. Any place and its system can be fixed.

Some real world nations that at points in their history were fearsome fascist places - every bit as bad as, if not worse than, this village - have since been "fixed".

it's a place of evil and has been for centuries, though obviously some good people live there.

No, it's not a place of evil. Were those trees evil? The ones that support a fascinating spiritual/psychic network of sorts? Not at all, imo.

When good people like Kyouhei try to leave it, and good people like Koushirou try and fix it from within, they're doomed to fail -

How do we know that Koushirou has tried to fix it from within? We know that he's stood up for Kirio, effectively so may I add. We don't know if he's been trying to change the entire system of the village.

they're inevitably drawn back into the cycle of violence and paranoia that surrounds the village. The only way to free the good people associated with Karakami in the end is to get rid of the Kekkashi system and the village that was built around it.

I very strongly disagree. A sociocultural environment can be reformed, rehabilitated, and fixed. So can a political system.

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

Yes, they're not evil or good. It's the system that uses them that's evil. Is there any practical difference?

Of course there's a practical difference. You can discard a system without having to destroy all of the useful tools it misused. Tools that Utao clearly showed can be used to save lives, not just destroy.

As for "know", well, of course not - it's an opinion based on the evidence in the series so far.

It's an opinion completely at odds with much of what you wrote about Kyubey over on Madoka Magica's subforum back when Madoka Magica was airing.

But my view is that the series has attempted to convey the impression that for all that there are good people there, the place as a whole is effectively cursed.

A curse can be lifted. You don't need to kill a person to lift the curse that's on him.

It's also attempted to portray Aki in shades of gray and not black and white, because he's a product of everything that's wrong with Karakami and the culture that exists there.

You can change a culture without destroying physical structures and people's lives.

Originally Posted by TheEroKing

I agree, it's not just Aki and Kyouhei that seem to be chained to the village for one reason or the other. Perhaps in Aki's and Kyouhei's case it has something to do with the evil looking kakashi (Amaterasu) back in episode 5. Also, not many people in that village seemed crazy (most of them very quite friendly) so what they should be trying to take away the powers of the ones in control.

Bingo. That's way better than Aki's idea.

[Dean_the_Young]

Originally Posted by Forsaken_Infinity

It's not about being "right" in the moral sense but being "right" in the pragmatic sense. I don't really see a way Aki and co. could ever get away from what they have been through (the harrowing experience will always haunt them) but they could at least lead a somewhat "normal" life and at least make an attempt at finding love and healing their hearts (I doubt it'd achieve much success) but they can't even do that so long as there is that village trying to "collect" them or otherwise meddling with their lives. So wiping it off the map is a valid - dare I say the only - thing they could do. I don't agree with it but I wouldn't condemn them if they did exactly that either. So long as they are sincere about it.

If Aki didn't make a spirited attempt to butcher and keep involved with the village even after he fled, he'd probably be a lot less hassled by them. If he spent less time trying to provoke Kyohei and more time going anywhere else to build a life, there isn't much yet to suggest that the village could track him down. They can't even do it when he's in a known city.

That aside, 'sincerity' doesn't pardon the sociopathy of collective punishment and destruction of a hierarchical society.

[Guardian Enzo]

I'm not going to respond to that line by line for the sake of brevity, but I think a comparison to Kyuubey and Madoka Magica is misplaced here, as I really don't see the situations as analogous at all. Everyone involved with Karakami has their eyes open, and they know exactly what they're dealing with.

I also think the fact that the Kekkashi can be used for non-evil purposes doesn't mean they should be allowed to exist. The temptation they provide is simply too great, and as long as they're around they're going to eventually destroy lives and cause much more harm than good. The mere fact that something is capable of being selectively used for good doesn't mean it's a good thing.

I really think you're misunderstanding the use of symbolism here. As I said, it's wrong for Aki to want to destroy the town with everyone in it (if indeed that's his intention). But in his pain-driven extremism, he's hitting on a valid argument - that the very nature of the place is fundamentally unnatural and wrong. It's a question of whether you think what's wrong with it is a pimple or cancer. If you think it can be cured with a little astringent and Clearasil, that's an option. If you think it can only be cured by removing the source of the disease, you have to gut the heart of what makes the place what it is. Whether that can be done without destroying the village itself I don't know (and destroying the village isn't synonymous with killing its inhabitants), but I don't think this a matter of a good tree being spoiled by a few bad apples. This is a pretty fundamental disagreement about that, obviously, but I think that's what it boils down to. Pulling out the straw man and saying the only alternative to your argument is genocide really doesn't help, because that's not remotely what I'm suggesting and I don't believe it's what the series is hinting at either.

[Dean_the_Young]

Since the Kekkashi are compared to a battle tank, what the Kekkashi system needs to be reformed isn't the murder of the village (which would be criminal to the extreme) or even the destruction of the Kekkashi (which would undermine the basis of the village), but rather the exposure of the village to the outside world.

If the Kekkashi are no longer unique or exceptional, the unique and exceptional context of the village will be done away with. It's no longer the pre-modern era: the governments have more tanks (and faster planes) and could break the Village if it fought, and would break the system in order to take advantage of it. The non-Seki may not be able to overturn the Seki or the ruling families, but the government of Japan sure could (and sure would).

Aki's solution isn't simply murderous, it's actually harder since he's going to have to fight everyone to do it. If you want to break the system, just get rid of the Kakkashi (undermine it) or reveal the village to the world (expose it).

Either would break the system without deliberate loss of life (which I think it's clear Aki intends).

[Guardian Enzo]

I certainly agree that a solution without loss of life (except the old Hyuga bastard who used Kirio as a torture victim) is preferable - though I'm not 100% convinced that isn't what Aki wants, too. And exposure to the world might just be the best possible scenario for doing it. But even that would effectively end the village as it currently exists, as their way of life - their raison d'etre - would be gone.

[FlareKnight]

Well the Aki hunting team gets larger . They almost can't have a fight against Aki since it'd be too one-sided.

Fun to watch Utao and Kirio since they really have a strained connection. At least they shouldn't start a huge fight any time soon.

I'm actually pretty unmoved with any Kuuko and Aki developments. She can do whatever and think he'd really care less. Can't compare to Sensei and Nono . Kuuko loses to the dog. Just think Kuuko is hardly the type to bring Aki out of his negativity and loss. Though considering they brought Moyako along might as well see what kind of meeting might occur with her and Aki. Considering he hasn't been able to head back this is probably the best chance for Kakashi maintenance he's going to get.

While Moyako was giving Utao some praise it does seem to confirm that Kyohei was the one who opened the left hand and used that attack. After all Utao wasn't really even thinking about it and we already saw something similar with Aki.

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

Since the Kekkashi are compared to a battle tank, what the Kekkashi system needs to be reformed isn't the murder of the village (which would be criminal to the extreme) or even the destruction of the Kekkashi (which would undermine the basis of the village), but rather the exposure of the village to the outside world.

If the Kekkashi are no longer unique or exceptional, the unique and exceptional context of the village will be done away with. It's no longer the pre-modern era: the governments have more tanks (and faster planes) and could break the Village if it fought, and would break the system in order to take advantage of it. The non-Seki may not be able to overturn the Seki or the ruling families, but the government of Japan sure could (and sure would).

Aki's solution isn't simply murderous, it's actually harder since he's going to have to fight everyone to do it. If you want to break the system, just get rid of the Kakkashi (undermine it) or reveal the village to the world (expose it).

Either would break the system without deliberate loss of life (which I think it's clear Aki intends).

Not sure it'd be that simple. Sure if you put an entire army against the Kakashi they'd probably win, but in that case no reason for the village to fight normally. Ignoring as well the potentially monstrous Kakashi that isn't in use. Pretty easy to have someone walk around who can instantly summon an insanely dangerous weapon and just assassinate all the leaders of Japan. Maybe the village would still go down, but they'd do a lot of damage before that happens. Hard to say how things would turn out even if it was more peaceful. Just instead of an intensely isolated village could just have Seki being used as their thugs or maybe just intense control of a variety of small areas.

Also can't forget that this is anime and interesting mechs just find a way to trump modern tech anyways .

Plus getting the exposure is the key. Easy enough to get a random video, but exposing the situation in that village will be tough. After all anyone snooping around would presumably be killed.

Of course not saying we should definitely go with Aki's plan. Not everyone in the village is evil, plenty are, but not every person. Though can certainly get how his mind reached the point of thinking that to be the only valid solution. Take down the village with the very weapons they tried to control. Do kind of like the symoblic approach though. Just flatten that village and make everyone scatter to the winds. If everyone there is forced into the regular world that should help kill off some of the problems.

Exposure is probably best though still tough.

[Sinestra]

So far this series has been a huge surprise im watching episode 9 tonight. But so far KsD has managed to work in so many different things in such a short amount time and ti doesn't even feel rushed. I mean the brocon was obvious from the start but to not only work in more disturbing issues such gang rape and an illicit student/teacher affair (even though Aki never went to school) shows this series has a lot more to offer than at first glance. What i like is that we see two sides of the same coin in AKi and Kyohei to me this is the most interesting part of the series other than what the dolls truly are.

We can see that Kyohei has a deep anger but he does well to control it until pushed to his breaking point. The question is where is his breaking to the point where he cant recover with just words. Although i admire his self control i am pretty irritated with his less than manly approach to most things from his parent, Aki to his love life. I could forgive a high schooler but Kyohei is an adult he needs to be more sure of himself.

Im also interested in that very dark yet powerful looking doll in the depths of the Hyuga manor. As the old abusive bastard stated Kirio has not been able to communicate with it and from the looks of Utao it doesnt look like she would do any better. Could Aki or Kyohei be the key to unlocking this sleeping powerhouse. For some reason i feel that when Kyohei finally just goes ape he will be the one to communicate with it.

excellent series and as small as of note this is i must say i love how every Kakkashi's song is different depending on the Seki. Its makes each Kakkashi even unique.

I fucking hate this damn village this place will never let anyone go who was born there. Screw the village id rather see it burnt to the ground or turned into a fucking crater. However in the spirit of non-violence i would say getting rid of the Kakkashi would send the system in place crashing to the ground. No more would there be a hierarchy based of Seki and just regular old joe. I hate systems like whats in place in KsD.

[mangatron]

Ah, all this distraction and I could still hit a reichmark at a thousand meters. -WWII Sniper

With the discussion about the village (it's not my fault is it?), and the justification of it's removal, or "restructuring", I'm surprised no one hit the mark with it in the simplest solution to the problem of the Village: cut off the head, and the rest withers.

Now I don't literally mean to physically off someone's head, it's obvious the darker side of this Village is Old Man Hyuga, as we've seen already in ep 06 that Old Man Kuga didn't even raise a muscle or voice against Utao, further suggesting he's not all power hungry and abusive in the old, traditional Kekashi ways.

I've pointed it out weeks ago, but Kuga-ojiisan's conversation with Utao was really important, as it was a stern, yet non-violent scolding of a Seki who failed their mission, and yet old man Hyuga violently oppressed his Seki for failing the same mission (capture Aki). Remember that the Kekashi have been doing good things around the village, and helping out, I would wager that Kuga-jiisan is an old relic of that past, whilst old man Hyuga is definitely the warmonger of the two.

One solution to the problem of this village, is of course removing that old man Hyuga from power (as his amount of Seki+Kekashi rather outweigh's the Kuga's), and let this village grow with the times, let these dolls help the modern world, or if it deems necessary, just let them remain a secret, lock them away, and free it's villagers and Seki of the binds of having gods in their midst. Locking away Kekashi seems to have done well for Ameterasu, right?

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

I'm actually pretty unmoved with any Kuuko and Aki developments. She can do whatever and think he'd really care less. Can't compare to Sensei and Nono .

What? Absurdity at its finest! Give in to the glory that is megane-maid Kuuko, at this moment Aki's only hope for a roof over his head, she is the solace of this socially withdrawn cookie cutter But seriously,

Though considering they brought Moyako along might as well see what kind of meeting might occur with her and Aki. Considering he hasn't been able to head back this is probably the best chance for Kakashi maintenance he's going to get.

That's what I want to see. It's apparent Kuuko is going to that village, or at least in her attempt to, how fun it would be to run into Moyako, and a cat fight should ensue The best part should be, since Kuuko's dad pretty much has the same idea of investigating the village, if he runs into Kuuko with Aki beside her, he'd probably point a finger and get it broken off

But, in all seriousness, I have compared Kuuko to Sensei before, and episode 09 adds to it a little more. The banter between Kuuko and Aki during the maid scene was a really important conversation, as we can see Kuuko puts up with taking care of him, something he didn't ask for, but does nothing otherwise. Remember how Sensei inserted herself into Aki's life, she had him take care of a doggy, and she kept interacting with him, despite all his distaste for it, yet it's something he doesn't "correct".

[Reckoner]

If a peaceful solution exists, I'm all for it. Otherwise destruction may be the only route.

However, we still don't know enough about everything to make an educated decision on the matter of what's the best course of action.

[mangatron]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

However, we still don't know enough about everything to make an educated decision on the matter of what's the best course of action.

Here's a speculative scenario. Let's say Old Man Hyuga wants to control something in his basement, and he decides to let out a rather strong prisoner of his to test the waters. Said prisoner was well aware of what it takes to control that basement thing, but what old man Hyuga wasn't counting on was the prisoner wanting out of the whole thing. Sounds likely.

That makes me ask myself, why didn't Kyohei just ask Aki "who let you out" or "was it that easy to break out?" But I have a feeling Aki isn't the chatty type.

I'd be laughing if Mahiru was the element to turn this whole around, ruining old man Hyuga's plans, considering she might have contradicted herself there I hope she's not a pawn in the whole "get close to Kyohei so they can bring him back to the village" plan

[Guardian Enzo]

Incidentally, I think Kukko is in way, way over her head with Aki. She's a Daddy's girl playing at conspiracy theories because it's fun and it pisses him off. If Aki went postal on her, she'd pee herself and crawl under the bed.

[mangatron]

Like father like daughter

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

If Aki went postal on her, she'd pee herself and crawl under the bed.

He did try to go postal on her. But she pulled a tazer on him *runs*

The fact that he crawled back into her apartment means he wants more of where that came from

[zzhk]

Originally Posted by mangatron

Here's a speculative scenario. Let's say Old Man Hyuga wants to control something in his basement, and he decides to let out a rather strong prisoner of his to test the waters. Said prisoner was well aware of what it takes to control that basement thing, but what old man Hyuga wasn't counting on was the prisoner wanting out of the whole thing. Sounds likely.

That makes me ask myself, why didn't Kyohei just ask Aki "who let you out" or "was it that easy to break out?" But I have a feeling Aki isn't the chatty type.

I'd be laughing if Mahiru was the element to turn this whole around, ruining old man Hyuga's plans, considering she might have contradicted herself there I hope she's not a pawn in the whole "get close to Kyohei so they can bring him back to the village" plan

Consider the fact that even though Aki has gone rogue with a Kuga kakashi, the Hyuga are spending far more manpower to capture Aki (Koushiro + Kirio, whereas the Kuga just sent Utao).

Now, recall the opening scene in Episode 1:
"The memories in your heart...
A dark whirlpool of hatred and obsession...
I'll devour... all of it!"
Cut to giant kakashi and young Kyouhei, Aki and Mahiru running for their lives.

I leave as an exercise for the reader as to who/what is doing the devouring and who has lots of hatred in their heart.

Blasphemy! Mahiru is no pawn.
Does she really look like the type to take orders from anyone?

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

Incidentally, I think Kukko is in way, way over her head with Aki. She's a Daddy's girl playing at conspiracy theories because it's fun and it pisses him off. If Aki went postal on her, she'd pee herself and crawl under the bed.

Eh, I doubt it. Kuuko is possibly even more crazy than Aki. As mangatron pointed out, he did almost go postal on her before, and it ended up with her tazing him. Even now that she knows how dangerous he can be, she's still not afraid of him one bit. In fact, she wants to see more of his dangerous side.

[Xaturas]

Originally Posted by zzhk

Consider the fact that even though Aki has gone rogue with a Kuga kakashi, the Hyuga are spending far more manpower to capture Aki (Koushiro + Kirio, whereas the Kuga just sent Utao).

Now, recall the opening scene in Episode 1:
"The memories in your heart...
A dark whirlpool of hatred and obsession...
I'll devour... all of it!"
Cut to giant kakashi and young Kyouhei, Aki and Mahiru running for their lives.

I leave as an exercise for the reader as to who/what is doing the devouring and who has lots of hatred in their heart.

Blasphemy! Mahiru is no pawn.
Does she really look like the type to take orders from anyone?

If we consider that its the doglike god talking, that he wants to devour something. Then we see hyuuga having some nice similiar/same god in basement, regenerating itself (why does it need to, unless it was destroyed ...)
Then we see Aki being *magically released*, or escaping, and hyuuga spending almost all of their manpower if not all to get him. It all gets into 1 picture.
1.God
2.Hatred
3.Aki
4.???
5.Profit.
Problem is Aki isn't an easy target or so it seems.

[Dean_the_Young]

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

Not sure it'd be that simple. Sure if you put an entire army against the Kakashi they'd probably win, but in that case no reason for the village to fight normally. Ignoring as well the potentially monstrous Kakashi that isn't in use. Pretty easy to have someone walk around who can instantly summon an insanely dangerous weapon and just assassinate all the leaders of Japan. Maybe the village would still go down, but they'd do a lot of damage before that happens. Hard to say how things would turn out even if it was more peaceful. Just instead of an intensely isolated village could just have Seki being used as their thugs or maybe just intense control of a variety of small areas.

The thing about the Kakashi, though, is that they aren't insanely dangerous. They're sanely dangerous... and they're sanely dangerous like a tank. And if they're equivalent to tank, by the words of a person who has good reason to know their capabilities, what does that mean? Well, for their 'better than tank' advantages they'll have 'worse than tank' disadvantages... otherwise they wouldn't be equivalent. A Kakashi isn't worth an army in battle, it's worth a tank. Do you know how many ways short of a tank there are to take down a tank? And tanks don't fly via unblockable remote control.

We aren't talking military-destroying giant robots here. We're talking special wooden dolls that can be taken down by a lot of types of hand-carried weapons... such as those carried by the bodyguards of very important people. Let's not exaggerate danger to massacres.

Plus getting the exposure is the key. Easy enough to get a random video, but exposing the situation in that village will be tough. After all anyone snooping around would presumably be killed.

Spy satelites, overflight, observation from the forest, and, well, testimony from people who lived there. Like Aki, who has one of those things.

Of course not saying we should definitely go with Aki's plan. Not everyone in the village is evil, plenty are, but not every person. Though can certainly get how his mind reached the point of thinking that to be the only valid solution. Take down the village with the very weapons they tried to control. Do kind of like the symoblic approach though. Just flatten that village and make everyone scatter to the winds. If everyone there is forced into the regular world that should help kill off some of the problems.

Exposure is probably best though still tough.

Aki talking to a certain investigator and telling his story is a lot easier than Aki trying to take on all the other dolls at once at a place where, if he's defeated, nothing will change.