2011-10-21, 16:27 | Link #25201 |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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Well... Maybe we're supposed to doubt that development. Turning the conditional around, if Battler is not pulled out of the ocean several years later, he doesn't become Hachijou Tohya. That would make Ikuko the sole author of the stories, right? And the ending of EP8 becomes the miraculous ending she promised fictional-Ange to make her happy.
Because Ikuko and Tohya are recluses, nobody can deny that it's what actually happened. That's also an interesting conclusion, in its own way... EDIT: However, I think it's pretty much a moot point because たら is being used in a past context. When you do that, it isn't interpreted as a conditional statement anymore, but as "when X happened, there was a surprising result Y". For example: 家に帰ったら、誰もいなかった。 - When I went home, there was no one there. (unexpectedly)
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Last edited by LyricalAura; 2011-10-21 at 17:19. |
2011-10-21, 17:19 | Link #25202 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
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So, the sentence translates as: "Several years later, by the time he had been retrieved from the sea, he had lost his memories and became Hachijō Tōya."
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2011-10-21, 17:26 | Link #25203 | |
All Evils of the World
Join Date: Feb 2008
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2011-10-21, 17:37 | Link #25204 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
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I understand that, the problem comes from things like I described earlier. Yasu decides what rules are in play and how its interpreted. The problem is that, sometimes, when you think that you understand a rule, there are exceptions that should have been counted. But for whatever reason they aren't. This gives us the sensation that Yasu is cheating to maintain the illusions.
Anyways, what Used and Lyrical have mention is interesting. This does make it look like Battler really wasn't alive at the time and that everything in the epilogue is false. Now why would Ikuko decide to give Ange that ending? Why would she feel that sense of obligation to her? |
2011-10-21, 18:00 | Link #25205 | ||
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Still I'd say it's rather: "Several years later, by the time he had been retrieved from the sea, he had lost his memories and become Hachijō Tōya." not only because it's なった but also because it's all a matter of things in the past. Quote:
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2011-10-21, 19:13 | Link #25206 | |||
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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2011-10-21, 20:39 | Link #25207 | |
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THE author on Rokkenjima fiction having a source in the hospital where the sole survivor of the tragedy is spending her final days is not even that farfetched...and considering she and her fellow Witch Hunters have spent some money on even weirder personal belongings it's not strange for her to buy it through shaddy sources. The only thing you could argue about is that maybe a room so closely guarded as Eva's would probably not have been cleaned without some of the securities having a close eye on what everybody is doing. Considering the Sumadera's were planning to overthrow the Ushiromiya corporation, Okonogi wouldn't have let some hospital staff just rumage the room...Eva could have stored anything in there. |
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2011-10-21, 21:55 | Link #25208 | |
The True Culprit
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There is nothing you can do about this unless you redefine the term "death" when you don't do so for any other people, like Hideyoshi or Kyrie or whoever. It's fucking bullshit and it makes Ryukishi to be a dishonest cock who's not playing fairly.
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2011-10-21, 22:03 | Link #25209 | |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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Come to think of it, "Sakutaro cannot be revived" is pretty much equivalent, and that was said in red.
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2011-10-21, 22:46 | Link #25210 |
The True Culprit
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The Sakutaro Maria was talking about was ripped physically in half, and he was replaced with a replica. This isn't equivalent in any way to someone playing dead, then getting up. Maybe if Shannon and Kanon were lifesize remote control mannequins it'd be in any way comparable, but they're not.
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2011-10-21, 23:44 | Link #25211 | |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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Presumably you're still okay with them both being dead if the stuffed animal is destroyed. But what if Maria has another rule, "a lion dies if his scarf is unraveled"? If only the blue scarf is burned up in a fire, would it be okay for Maria to say "Sakutaro Blue is dead and Sakutaro Red is alive" with red truth, and then carry on playing with Sakutaro Red? What I'm trying to get at here is that the vessel doesn't intrinsically matter. The important thing is, what are the rules governing the game board that the piece exists on? That idea was already well-established by the end of EP4.
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2011-10-21, 23:52 | Link #25212 |
The True Culprit
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Alright, fine.
But Sakutarou was never alive in the first place. He's fucking imaginary. Shannon and Kanon are an actual flesh and blood person. If he wanted to erase them from the board while leaving Yasu open to do things, he should've used dodgy wording, like "Shannon is no longer on the board" or "Kanon no longer exists" or "Shannon has been destroyed." But don't fucking give the same word two fucking meanings without giving us any indication of how to differentiate between them until later. That's not fair in any sense, and it's inherently dishonest.
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2011-10-22, 02:07 | Link #25213 | |
All Evils of the World
Join Date: Feb 2008
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The idea of Yasu actually running around in a bunch of different costumes is really silly to me, so I'd rather not think that is what is actually going on. Especially since none of the "games" we have seen really happened anyway. A battle with a witch is not supposed to be fair or honest. |
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2011-10-22, 02:53 | Link #25214 | |||
The True Culprit
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This is explicitly a problem where there is no evidence given until you apply data given during the solution. It's like fucking Heavy Rain, a game notoriously criticized for having a twist that makes no sense within the context of the narrative, and doesn't improve any repeated viewings of the game, and even LIES to you about what a character is thinking and doing even if you're watching them...not to be clever, but to protect a twist, and not resolve the plot holes this twist creates afterward. This is the same deal. He created a rule, he broke that rule, he has no justification for that rule aside from "because I said so." The rule of the Red Truth was created so we could trust the words coming out of Beatrice's mouth, and not have to question the validity of what she's saying. However, she LIED with the red truth, undermined the validity of her own rule, and destroyed our ability to trust her at face value because apparently any word can mean any other fucking word. If I said I'm a woman despite being a man, what do we do about the fact that I said this red truth? Oh, well, you see, I'm a woman because that's what people always assume I am on the internet. This crayon is blue. What? It's Yellow? Sorry, I'm fucking colorblind, yellow and blue are the same color to me. Red Truth valid. My mom is dead. What? You just talked to her? Well I hate that bitch and I cut her out of my life, she's dead to be in a figurative sense. STILL VALID. HERP A DERPITY DOO.
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2011-10-22, 03:05 | Link #25215 | ||
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
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For things to work the way Ryukishi wanted them to work, he had to intentionally omit the necessary information and hide it while advancing the red text as a methodology that was actually not the true methodology for finding truth in his story. It turns out we should've been taking Jessica and Maria absolutely literally. Naturally, one would attempt to reconcile this hinted information with the red, but again, that's not what one actually should have done. In matter of fact, we should've simply ignored the red because it was (effectively) meaningless. Quote:
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2011-10-22, 04:20 | Link #25216 |
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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It's not Beatrice's definition of "dead" that should be examined in these cases, but the definitions of "Shannon" and "Kanon". There was always a lot of care in defining whether Shannon and Kanon were human or not. What does it mean for "furniture" to be dead? If I said my couch is dead, you wouldn't call me a liar, would you? However Beatrice was also fully aware that saying Kanon is dead would be misleading to Battler, so that part of her was trolling.
As we saw in episode 6, Beatrice herself is kind of two separate entities. Their respective roles in comprising Beatrice are illustrated by the candy magic trick scene where Moetrice used Golden Truth to legitimatize Beatroll's slight of hand. Moetrice innocently believes in magic, and Beatroll actually performs magic tricks. These two seemingly incompatible personality traits somehow fit together to make Beatrice; and this is how she can both believe in magic (like Kanon), yet at the same time be aware of how magic doesn't objectively exist. |
2011-10-22, 04:34 | Link #25217 | |
The True Culprit
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Beatrice lied with the Red. Sorry.
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2011-10-22, 10:18 | Link #25219 | |
All Evils of the World
Join Date: Feb 2008
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You learn very early on that Red Truth is subjective fact and is open to interpretation and vague wordplay. If you didn't learn that early on then that is your fault because I know that I did. He never lied about how the game worked. If you weren't expecting there to be moments where we were misled into missing the truth because of what we were told with the Red Truth then what did you think the entire point of a Witch using the Red Truth was? Just to be fair? And we were giving plenty of hints that the "death" of Shannon and Kanon were not as simple as they were. Specifically, once you realize the events we are seeing are more metaphorical than psychically happening, it should be relatively easy to put it together. Did you think Zombie Kanon was a red herring? I mean, people were figuring out this stuff pretty much around Episode 5, weren't they? Obviously it wasn't impossible. |
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2011-10-22, 10:59 | Link #25220 | |||
The True Culprit
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But when the hell does she ever say she got it from Kinzo, anyway? Quote:
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Now don't get me wrong. I'm one of the few people who likes and accepts Shkanon. My problem isn't with them. It's the fact that they're used to break the game and destroy our ability to trust a single damn thing. Goddamn how can you not see the problem here? The Red Truth was treated as different from white text but it's exactly the same; the same word tricks are used in both.
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