Claymore Chapter 119

[Elandyll]

Originally Posted by Dj0rel

And you fail to see what you refuse to see. Entire page 4 of chapter 93 clearly implies that Riful caught up to Renee. Both with panel focus and with the fact that Riful refereed to Renee as "you" instead of "she". Furthermore if Renee is alive then where is she? She clearly said that she needs to get back to the Organization to report stuff. She should have returned a long time ago considering that Dae was in the western lands at the same time and he returned.

But it will not show us anything (you'd think we 'd have a glimpse at Renee or what used to be Renee if she was around) and it can just as well be a monologue for Riful.
Where is Renee? Well, hiding, laying low after taking the Yoki suppression pill, because that would be the smart thing to do? Who knows? I think Yagi might be as lazy as to never adress this clearly ever again in fact, but we will see. Obviously, if she is still alive, she might show up at the org soon.

He's not resurrecting dead characters as you say "left and right" now either. He only resurrected three of them and they weren't exactly characters before that. It's not like he brought back Teresa or Jean or Flora. No these are brand new characters. And what exactly do you have against resurrection anyway.

It cheapens the story for me, to put things simply.
Cynthia was dying (touching scene, saying her goodbyes), and poof.
Miria was dead, as far as everyone knew, and poof.
3 former #1s return from the dead... poof

Miria's return made much more sense than Irene's.

Irene has returned?

Just like when Clare brought Jean back from awakening after seeing how it's done only once, or when Jean brought Clare back from awakening after seeing how it's done only once. In fact, now that I think about it, that whole scene makes a lot more sense. Why should Clare be the only one who uses recently learned abilities to save someone.

Because with the amount of damage endured, it is now pretty much implied that unless someone would be entirely obliterated, they can be saved, as opposed to the good old "Offensive Claymores will lose limbs, defensive claymores can regen but only so much". It's just a DBZ like explosion in scale of power and survivability imo.

We knew more about Isley (and Luciella and Riful for that matter) than we knew about Jean and Flora. We just barely knew about Undine about as much as we knew about Luciella.

We knew more about luciella? Really?
Also, what do we know about Riful? mmh?
Isley got some back story thanks to being the main antagonist (along with Riful) since Pieta and having an extra dedicated to his encounter with Pris, but in fact what did we learn about him? His past? his goals?

[Nixl]

Originally Posted by Elandyll

If you don't see it at this point, nothing I can do for you

(and being that far in denial as to say that he has -improved- in drawing environments .. wow)

P.S: why would I care about Angel Denustu in a discussion about Claymore? I simply imply that Yagi cares less about his creation (Claymore) than he used to, and may have cut back on assistants (who traditionally work on less important things like grey scales and environments).

So if someone disagrees with you it is denial Elandyll? You bring up no type of rebuttal whatsoever over the detail or the amount of items between the panels. Hell, this is your final argument Elandyll? This is the pinnacle of your argument? That I have to be in denial for you to be right in your mind and your only counter-argument is this post? To say that I am in denial? Really?


Again, what information or argument have you brought up to say otherwise? So far it is just that others have to be in denial for you to be objectively true.

Edit: It would be one thing if you gave statements as to why you think I am wrong, but you will not even do that. Instead, my argument has to be denial? Even if you bring up a fantastic counter-argument, this is the way you think and treat other people Elandyll? This is your thought-process when you debate with other people?

I was just going to leave this, but if this is who you truly are, I am shocked. It states that you are 39 years old, an adult, when has simply retreating into "you are in denial" been an acceptable debate strategy? Do you think that is what drives a debate in a subjective discussion?

[Dark Night]

Damn, I must be really easy to please since I don't have that many complaints.

Isley and Riful might have been bad guys but still their deaths touched me more than say, Undine or Flora (she was beautiful though).

Isley expressing a desire to be with his 'family' some more, or Riful crying just don't bounce off me.

Yagi even manages to put in what I would call symbolism. Isley, on the verge of death, standing with just one leg while supporting himself with his arm-sword. Then he falls.

The angle we see his fall from is practically the same as Riful's as she falls as well after Alicia cut off her leg.

As for the art, the early chapters are rather... awkward (not that I could do anything close to that), but I very much prefer what he's doing now.

About Rene: Riful actually says (subject to translation, of course), that 'whatever Rene chose to do, she had already been robbed of any chance of survival.'

She has rather an ominous smile while saying that, so Rene's chance of being alive are quite slim.

[carbontaxes]

Environment art has sunk to the lowest yet. Every scene looks like it's taking place in the Mojave Desert and Ellandyl is correct on this one thing.

Character art, however, has soared. I was taken aback throughout the last 5 chapters how much improvement there has been in character art, as well as effects-upon-body art.

I think here you might have to take everything into account before making a grand verdict like "art sux now"
------
To anyone who didnt care at all about the AO's death scenes (even Luciela's) all I have to say is, where is either your empathy or cognition? Like Gooral's outlook that they are only monsters and are equivalent to squashing an insect- is just invalid to anyone who reads this series. One thing Yagi did right was make these soft villains with understandable motives, and real frailties that a reader can identify with (Isley wanting family/Riful and her lover/Luciela with similar family issues). And their deaths actually were identifiable and moving.

The only hard villain is probably Dae and obviously not because he's physically powerful yet he releases insta-kills like the Abyssal Feeders and variouis other experiments and really he doesn't give a damn and really most likely his Island-Escape-Plan is probably available anytime he wants it. No, not exactly The Terminator, more like the Illuminati/Man Behind The Curtain. That's about the best the series is offering us in terms of Hard Villain.

------------------
About Raki. Lame. Why did Yagi have to make him that badass? It's stupid. Only redeeming thing is the implied question of his humanity. Yagi is probably about to place Raki in a battle situation where he receives a mortal wound to a human, where a human would just go into shock then bleed out then die. Raki will probably do that or somehow live and if he does it's pretty much implied that he has become a hybrid. I'm just really down on how Yagi or whatever writers decided to progress Raki..
..but then again I was uninterested in the whole Clare/Raki thing to begin with specifically because it screamed "We need some kind of standard love-interest in the story so let's just go ahead and do it".

That said, the entire "is he human or is he hybrid" suspense, yeah I do genuinely wonder about that at least.

[Claymore!]

Originally Posted by carbontaxes

About Raki. Lame. Why did Yagi have to make him that badass? It's stupid. Only redeeming thing is the implied question of his humanity. Yagi is probably about to place Raki in a battle situation where he receives a mortal wound to a human, where a human would just go into shock then bleed out then die. Raki will probably do that or somehow live and if he does it's pretty much implied that he has become a hybrid. I'm just really down on how Yagi or whatever writers decided to progress Raki..
..but then again I was uninterested in the whole Clare/Raki thing to begin with specifically because it screamed "We need some kind of standard love-interest in the story so let's just go ahead and do it".

That said, the entire "is he human or is he hybrid" suspense, yeah I do genuinely wonder about that at least.

Raki haters
Why not make Raki badass? there was no reason why he couldn't become badass. And Raki is human, if he was turned into a hybrid it would ruin his character. Raki is the only human in the story who can actually fight. Now people are angry because he isn't weak anymore. People hated him when he was a little kid, and people hate him now when he is so badass. so the only explanation is... Haters gonna Hate.

[MalakTawus]

I think the confidence was only to get clare to accept her arm. And i have assumed that Irene knew that someone (Rafaella) was looking for her and that she might not have much time left. Hence her complete lack of surprise when Rafaella did show up.

" I think....", "I have assumed.....".
Don't you get it? That's just your opinion (that btw is probably right).
You can say what you want but the only truth is that there is no definitive evidence that can lead us to conclude that Irene is SURELY dead.
Probably yes.Surely no.
Only Raph's memories inside Claire can give us a final answer to this matter.

It is also 100% possible for a meteor to strike china tomorrow and kill everyone there. But its very improbable.
Rafaella was completely obedient to the Organization, why would she betray them at that point and not kill Irene.

Oh,really?
What secret source of information you have to conclude that Raph was completely obedient to the org???
That's just how you imagine her.....the problem is that it's just in your imagination since there is no element to arrive to such conclusion.
A simple reason why Raph could have decided to spare Irene is simply because she didn't feel to kill a fellow warrior.
Raph has lived more than anyone else,so it's not so strange for her to be fully aware that the Mibs are the real bad guys.The only reason she decided to return is cause she wanted to find her sister,not because she belive in the org (this si very clear by her discussion with Rubel)....and since she is fully aware that no one else beside her can hope to find Irene,she could very well decide to spare Irene.
Also,the evidences that pointed to Miria's death were A LOT more than what we have for Irene.....and last time i checked Miria is still alive.....and China was not hit by a meteor!!!How could this happen!?

[carbontaxes]

Miria's first death scene was such a poor decision. Writers' mistakes like this happen from time to time. If it's any consolation..she's completely screwed now.

[Claymore!]

Originally Posted by MalakTawus

Also,the evidence that pointed to Miria's death were A LOT more than what we have for Irene.....and last time i checked Miria is still alive.....and China was not hit by a meteor!!!How could this happen!?

You know what i meant by it right?
I was taking about improbability and possibility.

That's just how you imagine her.....the problem is that it's just in your imagination since there is no element to arrive to such conclusion.

And there is also no element to arrive to such a conclusion that Rafaella would disobey the organization, that is just how you imagine her.

[Nixl]

Claymore! Correct me if I am wrong, but I think that is the very point Malak is arriving at. This manga leaves large details of story vague or up for imagination. Therefore, making claims that one knows to a degree of 100% certainty of what happened is ridiculous in itself.

oh wait, nevermind, I am just in denial.

[creb]

Originally Posted by Claymore!

well don't forget that IRENE HAD NO ARMS!
How would she survive alone with no arms? what would happen if she tripped and fell down, How would she get up?
Irene was an offensive type warrior so she can't regenerate very well.
What i assumed is that when Irene gave Clare her arm she somehow new that another warrior was near. I also don't think that Rafaella would disobey the Organization. She had orders to kill Irene.
I do believe that Renee is not dead, we never saw her die and it was not implied that she was killed like it was with Irene.

I wish we could embed flash videos in our posts.

Anyways, enough arguing and let us take a moment to memorialize Claymore's #2 Elf, Irene:


Larger size: http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs16/f/20...by_Biruchi.swf

[Shiek927]

*groan, why is it so freaking hard for people to just respect other people's opinions and not attack them for it?

I'm not naming any names, but this whole "debate" is one gigantic subjective opinion war - their's no foundation; if beauty is in the eye of the beholder, we're essentially arguing that what one person sees is beauty, is better then what another person's sees, which is impossible.

Their has been no neutrality at all; It "sort-of" started that way this morning, but when it got to people saying they aren't affected by certain things just because they don't like such things, etc, then their isn't any basis anymore -- it's just my opinion vs your own.

For crying out loud, Teresa vs Priscilla has a bigger foundation then this, even if it just eventually degenerates into opinion -- this debate doesn't even try for it.

Really; I'd rather have a Teresa vs Priscilla debate then more of this "I think/don't think the story is darker anymore/I like/don't like the new art/This didn't/did affect me/I think this way and you're a dummy if you don't agree with me".

Originally Posted by carbontaxes

Miria's first death scene was such a poor decision. Writers' mistakes like this happen from time to time. If it's any consolation..she's completely screwed now.

Who said it was a mistake? Maybe it was planned from the beginning to bring her back -- maybe it was all an experiment to just see how people would feel about Miria dying (in which case, people exploded).

People complained when she died, and people complained when she was brought back -- it really doesn't matter; calling it a mistake feels wrong when people are impossible to please in the first place.

[MalakTawus]

@Claymore!

You know what i meant by it right?
I was taking about improbability and possibility.

And you get it that i was joking, right?
Anyway i understood what you said and i gave you a clear example where the evidence were even stronger for Miria's death....but in the end she survived.

And there is also no element to arrive to such a conclusion that Rafaella would disobey the organization.

Listen,you are wrong for a very simple reason: YOU are the one that is saying "that scenario is not possible......" basing your conclusion on the UNCONFIRMED hypothesis that Raph is completely obedient to the org.
I'm simply showing you that there is a good chance that Raph was not obedient AT ALL (and this hypothesis is just as valid as yours....tbh this one is even more probable if we consider that Raph seems to be intelligent and that lived more than anyone else....) so it's absolutely possible that she didn't kill Irene.

@Nixl

Claymore! Correct me if I am wrong, but I think that is the very point Malak is arriving at. This manga leaves large details of story vague or up for imagination. Therefore, making claims that one knows to a degree of 100% certainty of what happened is ridiculous in itself.

oh wait, nevermind, I am just in denial.

YESSS!!! Exactly what i'm saying.
It seems that since we both are in denial we understand each other pretty well today,LOL.

@Shiek

I'm not naming any names, but this whole "debate" is one gigantic subjective opinion war - their's no foundation; if beauty is in the eye of the beholder, we're essentially arguing that what one person sees is beauty, is better then what another person's sees, which is impossible.

To be honest the real theme of the discussion wasn't so subjective since we were talking if the manga was still a "dark manga" even in the second part.......
.....and tbh saying that "that scenario is not dark 'cause i don't care for those characters" is not a valid argument no matter what.
I try to explain myself better giving an example: Isley's death is OBJECTIVELY a dark scene.....if you care or not for Isley's character is a totally different matter.Confusing this two aspects is what lead the discussion to ambiguity.

[carbontaxes]

I'm just saying it was an objective mistake. I'm making an objective statement about that. I do understand your existential anguish about the bickering in the broader sense and such...but yeah that whole first Miria thing never even needed to happen and it was a serious writing mistake.

[Shiek927]

Originally Posted by carbontaxes

I'm just saying it was an objective mistake. I'm making an objective statement about that. I do understand your existential anguish about the bickering in the broader sense and such...but yeah that whole first Miria thing never even needed to happen and it was a serious writing mistake.

....I can't tell if you read my post and still feel that way, or just ignored me completely.

Whatever; a week away from the next chapter so -- how about some 120 predictions, hmm?

[carbontaxes]

I understood you completely and am simply completely snubbing you. seriously though I never meant to make her "1st death" as such an indictment on this series, because you see I understand that any series not flawless and have already let that go. I guess you saw her 1st death as a natural progression with nothing wrong.

Either way, I am actually looking forward, and I like what I see. Hell... if I was 110% anti-zombie but now am actually enjoying the zombies, you can certainly forgive my view as Miria's 1st death as a wrong decision. I mean lol it doesn't even mean anything anymore.

[MalakTawus]

Carbontaxes, the "God of writing"!!!

Bow you mortals!!! He is the One that decides objectively if a writing is right or wrong!!!
Shiek!!! Don't you dare oppose his judgment,you infidel!!!

[Claymore!]

Originally Posted by Nixl

Claymore! Correct me if I am wrong, but I think that is the very point Malak is arriving at. This manga leaves large details of story vague or up for imagination. Therefore, making claims that one knows to a degree of 100% certainty of what happened is ridiculous in itself.

oh wait, nevermind, I am just in denial.

yeah sure whatever,

I actually forget everything that i previously have said
My memory and attention span is pretty shitty.

And i was saying that it is very possible for Renee to still be alive but other people kept on saying that she was dead. So i was arguing how she was still alive and then a bunch of other stuff happened and i got off of my topic.

[MalakTawus]

And i was saying that it is very possible for Renee to still be alive but other people kept on saying that she was dead.

I hope that with "other people" you are not talking about me,if not you clearly misunderstood what i was saying....

[Nixl]

Carbontax, I think the issue is, at least for the last 2 pages, how does one deem an opinion subjective or objective in manga with intentionally vague details and an incredibly diverse fanbase. Take any issue, some will hate it and some will love it. Personally, just like you I hate what Yagi did with Miria up until the tease of her following Claire's example and potentially partially awakening her limbs. However, I do not think I can call my opinion objective for the reason that it is not universally accepted and/or without bias.

To be objective it must be free of bias, but as the last few pages have shown each reader is with a bias. And to call something a mistake with certainty often warrants knowing most if not all the outcomes. We, the posters, have been waging this same debate for a couple months just on different topics. Believe me, I was also on the edge of calling it a mistake myself, but I think it is a question of just how qualified is each poster to make such claims.

It begs the question of how far can one take their beliefs without trampling over others. It is also about civility in a debate, one can spout that everyone with a different opinion is in denial, but what does that do to the standards of the discussion? It often goes downhill.

[Shiek927]

Originally Posted by carbontaxes

I understood you completely and am simply completely snubbing you. seriously though I never meant to make her "1st death" as such an indictment on this series, because you see I understand that any series not flawless and have already let that go. I guess you saw her 1st death as a natural progression with nothing wrong.

Either way, I am actually looking forward, and I like what I see. Hell... if I was 110% anti-zombie but now am actually enjoying the zombies, you can certainly forgive my view as Miria's 1st death as a wrong decision. I mean lol it doesn't even mean anything anymore.

You understood me completely; that's good -- I'm trying to be fair here and take a neutral approach; hence why I said it's a possibility that Yagi may have planned it all. You just repeated the same thing over which is why I couldn't tell if you even read what I said, or you did and still think that way; apparently, it's the latter.

Roflmao, no, I'm not taking your view as an indictment - calm down (and you're completely "snubbing" me? What's with the attitude?); and you don't know what my feelings are on her death because I never said them and don't plan too, not just for the sake of this little discussion.

Well, whatever -- as you said, it all doesn't matter at this point anyway; she's alive and kicking.

Well, I'm off -- great post just now Nixl, I advise you drop things where they are as well.