Fate/Zero - Episode 5 Discussion / Poll

[sento]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Thanks for the info. I think I might try to get my hands on the light novel then. Knowing more about the masters (significant moments that the anime left out) might enhance my appreciation for them.

Well, anime is almost carbon-copy of the novel and what is left-out is the same as other novel adaptations go (like Game of Thrones TV show) and some stuff that can be adressed later, so don't think that you will get suddenly something really that different, as everything was adapted properly (aside for leaving some scenes to confirmed BD directors cut).

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

I keep finding it ironic that I, the hardcore moe fan, lean strongly towards the "characters are fine" camp. Of course some of them are abhorrent bastards...

Likewise here. If UFOtable Fate/zero managed so far to successfully convey something that Deen Fate Stay/Night could not convey through (mostly because of the more awkward harem-y scenes), it is "gravitas". Every UFOtable's efforts seems to be made into making sure that we get that it is a serious war, with serious people, with serious motives, while Waver providing the last bits of juvenile "I want to prove the world something" for those who miss the likes of Shirou. As if to carry through the notes of the author, "Think this is a Grail War which mucks around with "women and children"? Haha no."

[larethian]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Thanks for the info. I think I might try to get my hands on the light novel then. Knowing more about the masters (significant moments that the anime left out) might enhance my appreciation for them.

I think the anime is closely adapted to the novel that there's no real need to read the novel, unless you really need to know everything little detail or missing monologue, which are not many compared to many other LN adaptations. The readers can actually fill you in. Like Sento said, it's pretty much a carbon copy (95%, I'd say) up till now.

[DragoZERO]

I forgot to mention that I loved Gil's arrogance. When Berserker cut the lamp post I knew he was going to get pissed off.

Originally Posted by larethian

I think the anime is closely adapted to the novel that there's no real need to read the novel, unless you really need to know everything little detail or missing monologue, which are not many compared to many other LN adaptations. The readers can actually fill you in. Like Sento said, it's pretty much a carbon copy (95%, I'd say) up till now.

Even if it is an accurate adaptation, I still think it's worth reading it. We don't hear what goes through the character's minds and I'm sure there are other elements that are explained a little more in the novel. You can't beat the original 99% of the time.

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by Sheba

Every UFOtable's efforts seems to be made into making sure that we get that it is a serious war, with serious people, with serious motives....

I'll give the show this, it's definitely proven to be the "serious business" show of the season in more ways than one.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Sheba

Likewise here. If UFOtable Fate/zero managed so far to successfully convey something that Deen Fate Stay/Night could not convey through (mostly because of the more awkward harem-y scenes), it is "gravitas".

I honestly didn't feel that Fate Stay/Night lacked "gravitas". Fate/Stay Night was sometimes uneven, in its pacing and characterization, but at no point did I find it hard to take the Holy Grail war in it seriously.

This notion that you can only take a war seriously if everybody in it is a brooding serious "professional" guy seems rather strange to me. I mean, in real life war you can have idealists, you can have cheerful guys (or gals) that make the most out of a bad situation (I've personally spoken to some WWII vets with personalities like this).

[HandofFate]

is it a requirement for there to be a Berserker? I mean, the old man told him to cast the Mad Enhancement onto Kariya's servant, but what if he didn't. Which servant would it be, would the last servant to be called in get Mad Enchance'd automatically?

It seems to be more of a condition than an actual class.

Also, it seems the Berserkers should have just been left alone.

A NP that makes other NP yours? That sounds like something a thinking brain would make great use of.

12+ lives, and master fighter? that would be nice..oh wait u can just swing a giant rock around now.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Only heroes who have undergone some level of madness can be summoned as a Berserker.

Therefore whoever this "berserker" is is someone who became quite literally mad in his lifetime. Berserker itself is one of the most powerful classes as it trades sanity for a boost in all stat levels which is why Kariya summoned one since he was lacking as a Magus.

Saber can only be summoned as a Saber class as that's the only one she can fulfill.

I think Rider could be a lancer (since he used spears when he was riding) or saber class as he's also competent with a sword.

Gilgamesh could be a saber since he uses swords or even lancer but since he prefers throwing things around that makes him an archer class.

[PhoenixFlare]

Originally Posted by HandofFate

is it a requirement for there to be a Berserker? I mean, the old man told him to cast the Mad Enhancement onto Kariya's servant, but what if he didn't. Which servant would it be, would the last servant to be called in get Mad Enchance'd automatically?

It seems to be more of a condition than an actual class.

Also, it seems the Berserkers should have just been left alone.

A NP that makes other NP yours? That sounds like something a thinking brain would make great use of.

12+ lives, and master fighter? that would be nice..oh wait u can just swing a giant rock around now.

As far as I know, the requirement to get a Berserker is that the Heroic Spirit needs to have at least gone berserk during his or her lifetime. Mad Enhancement does not need to be added, but it does provide a powerful boost to the Spirit. If you know your own standing (power level) as a magus, you don't have to cast Mad Enhancement on your spirit since you'll be getting quite a powerful spirit anyway (i.e., Heracles). But, a powerful spirit becoming even more powerful at the expense of sanity isn't always a bad trade-off, provided you're be able to handle your Servant from rampaging randomly.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

Only heroes who have undergone some level of madness can be summoned as a Berserker.

Therefore whoever this "berserker" is is someone who became quite literally mad in his lifetime. Berserker itself is one of the most powerful classes as it trades sanity for a boost in all stat levels which is why Kariya summoned one since he was lacking as a Magus.

Saber can only be summoned as a Saber class as that's the only one she can fulfill.

I think Rider could be a lancer (since he used spears when he was riding) or saber class as he's also competent with a sword.

Gilgamesh could be a saber since he uses swords or even lancer but since he prefers throwing things around that makes him an archer class.

saber could go under Rider, lancer and Archer as well. As a knight she would have had to know how to rider a horse, used a lance and archery skills.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Yeah I was wondering about that but according to the wiki site she's limited only to Saber class. Even Lancer could've been summoned as a Berserker.

[TwilightsCall]

I feel kind of silly for saying this two weeks in a row, but did anyone notice the change to the OP...again? In the same exact spot? XD

Here's an example of the difference for those who want to cheat and just know, but I encourage you to go back and watch it again and see if you can spot it yourself!

Spoiler for Picture Links and what changed:

Ep 4 OP: http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/g...all/Ep4OP2.jpg
Ep 5 OP: http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/g...Call/Ep5OP.jpg

The assassins (except for one of them it seems) come in fully opaque in the Ep4 OP, but in Ep 5 they are invisible and slowly fading in as they get knocked away.

With all the changes they are making to this one part, I'm starting to think there are more changes I just havn't noticed yet @_@

[kuroishinigami]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

saber could go under Rider, lancer and Archer as well. As a knight she would have had to know how to rider a horse, used a lance and archery skills.

It's been stated by word of gods(nasu) that saber could only be saber. Probably due to how closely related the legend of king arthur to caliburn and excalibur(both are swords), even if he(or she) is most likely proficient in horce riding and lance skill(and prbably in archery too).

[Randomzx]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

Well she was there briefly, but I could not agree more. For me it's about the chemistry right now and I just don't really buy that Irisviel and Kiritsgu have it no matter how much she's trying to convince Saber that he's some great guy. It's kind of a matter of telling, but not showing. The word out there has always been that he's some sort of great man that would eventually teach his son solid values about how to live his life, but literally every single thing he does on screen betrays that notion. I'd like to see that change a bit as well.

Well the Anime can't really convey Kiritsugu's reason for acting this way, because its mostly in his mind in the LN. Lets just say he's focusing on returning to his professional mindset as implied in Episode 3. And even in FSN, its discussed that even Shirou doesn't really know what he really went through.

It did strike me as odd though that Kiritsgu would resort to something like a snipers rifle to cover Saber and Irisviel rather than magic though, and it also seems kind of strange that you'd think he'd be trying to protect Irisviel and yet seems to be perfectly willing to let her play the decoy for him and put herself in harms way to keep his sorry ass hidden from the playing field a bit. Not exactly loving family man material either and for someone fearing that he'll bring about her eventual death he sure seems to be doing everything in his power to realize that fear. Maybe there's some sort of twist here that's coming that'll make his character work a little better for me, but that's something we'll have to see. The way this is being paced though it really looks like I'm going to be waiting a while on that though.

Again this is given a lengthy explanation multiple times in the Light Novel, and never spoken. The anime would have a hard time expressing the strategy and why this is preferred. Seriously, you are likely going to missing a huge load of details.

So yea, you are probably not going to fully understand why Kiritsugu is such a successful Magus killer and why he behaves like that.

[Forsaken_Infinity]

Originally Posted by kuroishinigami

It's been stated by word of gods(nasu) that saber could only be saber. Probably due to how closely related the legend of king arthur to caliburn and excalibur(both are swords), even if he(or she) is most likely proficient in horce riding and lance skill(and prbably in archery too).

Yep. Saber could only have been Saber. And Caster could have only been Caster. The rest of them could have been swapped around for any role other than Caster.

As to the guys saying that the anime adapted 95 % of what's in LN etc., the bits they left out are short moments that are critical to appreciating the Masters. You can't deny that removing intimate moments between Kiritsugu and Irisviel, removing the extensive monologue that Kirei sometimes has with himself, not showing Kariya wriggle in pain and slowly go insane etc. makes the masters become that much less interesting.

Some anime only viewers are already even thinking of Kariya as a cold-hearted bastard lol...

Or that there is no chemistry between Kiritsugu and Irisviel. If they had so much as shown those brief intimate hugs and tears from Kiritsugu as he held Irisviel etc., I doubt the viewers would get that impression.

[Reckoner]

You can't completely replicate the detail of a novel in a visual medium. It's simply impossible. If that's what you're expecting, you're holding it to an impossible standard.

People can feel however they want about the cast, but if there's one thing they are not, that is underdeveloped. All of them have been given lots of detail thus far, and it's only going to get better as we go along.

Sure, we could use some more insight into Kotomine right now, and a little more into Kiritsugu, but considering we're only 5 episodes in, there's still plenty of time to give more. If these characters are still in the same state around episode 10 or so, then I'll start really believing it then that they're leaving out too much detail (People are complaining so much already about all the talking, and then people precede to complain that we aren't getting enough insight to the characters is a little mind boggling imo).

[Haak]

Originally Posted by kitten320

Saber's disguise sucks... everyone can tell that she is a woman... just how did she manage to survive as a guy in her world?

I think the canon explanation is that Merlin created an illusion around her for everyone else...

...

...and gave her a penis...

[lightsenshi]

Originally Posted by Haak

I think the canon explanation is that Merlin created an illusion around her for everyone else...

...

...and gave her a penis...

Couldn't come up with anything better? Wow.

[jeroz]

to be fair, her chest size is not that bi--

*cut down by Excalibur*

[Kallen4life]

and massive LMAO @ the whole discussion about GoB. You guys clearly have no idea just how ridiculously hax GoB is. Gilgamesh uses it mostly like that because he's Gilgamesh, if Emiya had it, he would've already won the war...

do enlighten us

Let us not forget that Nasu himself has stated that Gil is one of the top 6 most powerful servants in his verse.

servants ? (because he is supposed to be top1 strongest servant, which also makes sense under Nasu-rules, since the older you are, the stronger you are .. and Gil is the oldest/first heroic spirit) Or did you mean beings in the whole Nasuverse ? I read Nasu said that's he in the top 3 after ORT and Zelretch, although that's likely an exaggeration, but top6 could be

I think the canon explanation is that Merlin created an illusion around her for everyone else...

...

...and gave her a penis...

man, they sure knew how to party back then