Anime Saimoe Tournament 2011 (Japan)

[KholdStare]

ion475 is right of course. Usually the voting population in prelims is vastly different from that of regular season.

[ppaaccoojrf]

Originally Posted by anisu

Anyway, as for Japanese saimoe quarterfinalists, if ISML strengths were used to decide matches, we'd have Mikoto, Tenshi, Laura Bodewig, Mio, Azusa, Shana, Yui (AB), Kuroneko. 2 Angel Beats, 2 K-ON, Index, Shana, IS, OreImo. The only overlapping contestant is Kuroneko.

ISML strengths: 6 shows, 6 veterans.
Actual results: 5 shows, 1 veteran.

wat. Are you talking about the same Laura who didn't win a single match?

[anisu]

wat. Are you talking about the same Laura who didn't win a single match?

Unless I'm missing someone, the only ISML regular season qualifiers in j-saimoe group C were Laura and Seraphim, who both got slaughtered equally.

edit- Oops, looks like Seraphim actually did win a couple and I was looking at an incomplete chart. In that case Seraphim would take Laura's spot.

[wontaek]

Originally Posted by anisu

Episode 10, the one before the hiatus, was the turning point for a moe contest.

I think you forget the scale of ISML and also the route through which anime is distributed to place outside of Japan. Due to multiple reasons, I still think it takes about a month for an impact episode like episode 10 of Magica Madoka to peak in its impact upon the results. Very simple reason is that most people follows only two to four series actively, and when such impact episode air, first there is at least 2 ~ 3 days of delay for active people to see it. another 2 ~ 3 days for the rumors to build, and then several more days before rest of anime fans make the effort to see the episode along with most of previous episode.

The episode 10 aired on March 11th. By then, phase I of prelim was over. Homura suffered because several girls in her phase I group overperformed, placing Homura into bad seed situation for Phase II and III. Homura lost to Sengoku Nadeko in Phase II quarterfinal on Mar 22nd. If you check the map
http://kholdstare.ryantoddrogers.com...Map_p11-31.gif ,
,most of countries which has higher percentage of active anime watchers went for Homura. At Japan it was a tie.

ISML Prelim Phase III ended on March 31st. During Phase III, Homura did do better compared to previous 2 phases, but it wasn't enough. She also ran into the powerful Kugimiya Rie alliance and Angel Beats faction. There was a small backlash against Madoka Magica not resuming by 25th as well. People were beginning to wonder if the series got terminated. All these contributed to Homura's, and to lesser degree, other Madoka girl's failure to reach the regular season. Had ISML prelim started just one week later, I think Homura and at least 1 other girl would have reached ISML 2011 regular season, as phase III would have taken place when they were relatively stronger.

In end it was mostly the Catastrophe of Earthquakes and Tsunami which is responsible for Homura not making to 2011 regular season. When there were murmurs of the series being cancelled, it dampened enthusiasm of Madoka series supporters. In slight contrast, Kore Zombie aired on March 22nd, 29th and 30th, helping to maintain the morale of its supporters as they were voting on Mar 30th.

If you can't bring yourself to blame the Tsunami and Shaft's decision for Homura's exit, then blame me. I underestimated some character's strength, leading Homura to be assigned to too strong a group for her in Phase II and III. Had Homura been in easier group at the Phase I, I think her chance for regular season would have been much greater.

[ahelo]

As much as I love Madoka Magica, the fans have turned Saimoe into a borefest. 3 out of 4 characters in the semis is totally not fun at all. Also Nodoka and Mihoko have boobs so Mami hasn't achieve any feat yet. I mean low vote totals already toned the contest down, now this.

[jorez]

Everything is clear, Madoka is going to win.

Also, is it me or are there a lot of "if my character doesn't win, then the tournament is boring blah blah blah, I don't like mainstream characters or series fandom having a great time in a japanese popularity tournament" posts in the last 8 pages?

People, it's just a tournament. I didn't even vote once.

[anisu]

If you can't bring yourself to blame the Tsunami and Shaft's decision for Homura's exit, then blame me. I underestimated some character's strength, leading Homura to be assigned to too strong a group for her in Phase II and III. Had Homura been in easier group at the Phase I, I think her chance for regular season would have been much greater.

If it's any consolation, I would've foolishly given her a "bring it on, mongrels" seeding if I were in that position.

The rest of that explanation made some interesting points.

[OverFunk]

It's clear that different people value different things in their moe tournaments.

For me, the primary value is entertainment. Series dominance gets really in the way of that. If a match is going to be that predictable, then what's the point. Also why I hate propositions of seeding.

We'll never get the awesome and diverse quarterfinals of 2010. Azusa dominated badly, but then it was only her.

Broken record, end.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by OverFunk

It's clear that different people value different things in their moe tournaments.

For me, the primary value is entertainment.

The primary value for me is also entertainment. And I find it entertaining to watch my favorite anime show of the year (thus far at least) dominate a moe competition. I also find it entertaining to see some beautifully designed magical girls dominate a moe competition.

Series dominance gets really in the way of that. If a match is going to be that predictable, then what's the point. Also why I hate propositions of seeding.

We'll never get the awesome and diverse quarterfinals of 2010. Azusa dominated badly, but then it was only her.

I prefer Series Domination over Character Domination.

Ultimately, a lot of the speculative fun comes from wondering "Who's going to win it all?"

With Series Domination there's some question to that (i.e. Who's going to win Madoka vs. Mami?)

With Character Domination, there isn't.

What's more likely: Kanade winning ISML 2011 or Madoka winning Saimoe 2011?

Kanade's victory is more likely, imo, so I find that takes a lot of the fun away from speculation (no offense to ISML's organizers, as I know they can't fully help this)

[Team Rocket Elite]

Originally Posted by wontaek

If you can't bring yourself to blame the Tsunami and Shaft's decision for Homura's exit, then blame me. I underestimated some character's strength, leading Homura to be assigned to too strong a group for her in Phase II and III. Had Homura been in easier group at the Phase I, I think her chance for regular season would have been much greater.

The blame is with the voters. The Puella Magi simply aren't that popular with the ISML votes. Not during preliminaries and I doubt it would be very different now or any time in between. Homura may have had a chance to get into the main tournament by switching with Shiina or Laura in Pool 4 or Pool 5 but she would be lucky to get more than 6 or 7 wins out of 49 matches. It would be nothing like the dominance the Puella Magi have shown in AST.

Originally Posted by OverFunk

It's clear that different people value different things in their moe tournaments.

For me, the primary value is entertainment. Series dominance gets really in the way of that. If a match is going to be that predictable, then what's the point. Also why I hate propositions of seeding.

We'll never get the awesome and diverse quarterfinals of 2010. Azusa dominated badly, but then it was only her.

Broken record, end.

Different people find different thing entertaining. I like the contest better where the strong advance and it's clear this year that the Puella Magi are the strong.

[OverFunk]

I'll bite.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

The primary value for me is also entertainment. And I find it entertaining to watch my favorite anime show of the year (thus far at least) dominate a moe competition. I also find it entertaining to see some beautifully designed magical girls dominate a moe competition.

I have finished 43 TV series in the elegible period according to MAL. Why should I be biased towards just one, where there is just a lot of possible moe girls out there. Even, I'll list some of them, without repeating series:

Nanasaki, Ferris, Alice, Hitoha, Ryouko, Kusano, Minette, Ayumi, Mio, Mikan, Kuroneko, Stocking, Ika-Musume, Nymph, Sherlock, Index, Sora, Rose, Nessa, Victorica, Anna, Charlotte, Eucliwood, (Madoka,) Nao, Merry, Menma, Lotte, Msyu, Erio, Eclair, Ohana, Aria, Ibuki, Yukko, Naru, Kotone, Kurisu.

Do none of them deserve a chance? Why shouldn't they? Because their series weren't ANIME OF THE YEAR 10/10? That's wrong. It's abhorrent.

I prefer Series Domination over Character Domination.

Ultimately, a lot of the speculative fun comes from wondering "Who's going to win it all?"

With Series Domination there's some question to that (i.e. Who's going to win Madoka vs. Mami?)

With Character Domination, there isn't.

What's more likely: Kanade winning ISML 2011 or Madoka winning Saimoe 2011?

Kanade's victory is more likely, imo, so I find that takes a lot of the fun away from speculation.

That's where you get a fundamental misunderstanding of Saimoe. Interseries matches are really predictable. Suiseiseki > Suigintou. Fate > Nanoha. Japan is really predictable in that aspect. Only real upset there is was Saimoe 2004 final, when Nadja got shafted in the final.

Madoka > Sayaka was such an easy call. Despite higher flow of votes for Sayaka during her previous matches.

And then, either Mami and Madoka would wreck Kyouko. And Mami only looks like she can compete with Madoka. But all those 710 votes will be split between both of them.

Tenshi has ISML. Madoka has Saimoe. End of story.

[Coldlight]

Originally Posted by jorez

Also, is it me or are there a lot of "if my character doesn't win, then the tournament is boring blah blah blah, I don't like mainstream characters or series fandom having a great time in a japanese popularity tournament" posts in the last 8 pages?

What I don't understand is the backlash against characters for a reason (series domination) that doesn't even have anything to do with the character herself or her own moe value. I'd understand if the complaints/disdain/outrage against the character were due to a legitimate reason involving the character, like Charlotte from Madoka (completely inhuman, and surely not moe) and Ohana's grandma (character-wise, she's okay, but really, appearing in a moe tournament?). Irrational, unreasonably high levels of hatred for a character doesn't count either.

I mean, I deny the existence of the mythical Saimoe 2008 not because of series domination, but because I didn't like the characters involved in the final match and the series that supposedly won it that year (no offense to LS fans, but I just don't like that show ).

[Kyuu]

Originally Posted by jorez

Everything is clear, Madoka is going to win.

Also, is it me or are there a lot of "if my character doesn't win, then the tournament is boring blah blah blah, I don't like mainstream characters or series fandom having a great time in a japanese popularity tournament" posts in the last 8 pages?

People, it's just a tournament. I didn't even vote once.

It's just one way to express butthurt.

[Eater of All]

Originally Posted by Coldlight

What I don't understand is the backlash against characters for a reason (series domination) that doesn't even have anything to do with the character herself or her own moe value. I'd understand if the complaints/disdain/outrage against the character were due to a legitimate reason involving the character, like Charlotte from Madoka (completely inhuman, and surely not moe) and Ohana's grandma (character-wise, she's okay, but really, appearing in a moe tournament?). Irrational, unreasonably high levels of hatred for a character doesn't count either.

I mean, I deny the existence of the mythical Saimoe 2008 not because of series domination, but because I didn't like the characters involved in the final match and the series that supposedly won it that year (no offense to LS fans, but I just don't like that show ).

One of the reasons is simply popularity, and I don't mean the backlash against popularity kind. When a series is popular, it tends to do well even if its characters are not as moe as their opponents. When a series dominates, people naturally attribute its domination to that popularity effect.

The real debate then, is this: will Madoka characters dominate just as much if their series was not as popular?

[ppaaccoojrf]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

The primary value for me is also entertainment. And I find it entertaining to watch my favorite anime show of the year (thus far at least) dominate a moe competition. I also find it entertaining to see some beautifully designed magical girls dominate a moe competition.




I prefer Series Domination over Character Domination.

Ultimately, a lot of the speculative fun comes from wondering "Who's going to win it all?"

With Series Domination there's some question to that (i.e. Who's going to win Madoka vs. Mami?)

With Character Domination, there isn't.

What's more likely: Kanade winning ISML 2011 or Madoka winning Saimoe 2011?

Kanade's victory is more likely, imo, so I find that takes a lot of the fun away from speculation (no offense to ISML's organizers, as I know they can't fully help this)

Read how biased your post is, at least the other guy tried to remain neutral. Yes, enjoying your favorite series stomping the competition is natural, but try taking it the other way. What if a series you don't like, don't care for, or didn't watch did the same? Yes, it might be interesting and put you on to watch said series (or warm up to it/hate it even more). But it does eliminate that feeling of unpredictability.

I for one, am happy that Erica is where she is because a)yes, I like her and b)she's the most unpredictable contender of all. I don't dislike the puellas, I in fact liked that show a lot (Top 5 of the year at least) and I like Sayaka and Kyouko a lot (their folders are even bigger than my waifu's). But that doesn't change the fact that them curbstomping all opposition does away with the competitiveness.

For a comparison with ISML, Angel Beats! was my favorite series last year, yet I don't like how Tenshi went undefeated. Hell, not even scratched.

EDIT: @coldlight: Hating on lucky star... why? ;_;?

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by ppaaccoojrf

Read how biased your post is,

Explaining what I personally find entertaining is of course going to be "biased".

My point is that some of us like what's going on in Saimoe 2011 for "natural" reasons, as you correctly point out.

Wouldn't it be more productive to allow us to enjoy those results, here on the Saimoe 2011 thread, rather than fill the thread up with endless negativity?

at least the other guy tried to remain neutral.

I disagree. He's presenting a philosophy on how one should approach moe contests. I appreciate and respect that philosophy, but I don't have to share it.

I personally don't think it's invalid to factor series favoritism into who you want to see win in moe contests. To me, it's not downright "abhorrent".

It's no different, really, than wanting to see players from your favorite sports team do well in individual player awards, and such things are common place amongst pro sports fans.

Yes, enjoying your favorite series stomping the competition is natural, but try taking it the other way. What if a series you don't like, don't care for, or didn't watch did the same?

Then I wouldn't like it, of course. Or I would feel "meh" about it. But once the dust settles, I'd let the people pleased by the results enjoy them.

If Kanade wins ISML 2011, then good for her fans. I'll find it boring, but good for her fans.

I for one, am happy that Erica is where she is because a)yes, I like her and b)she's the most unpredictable contender of all. I don't dislike the puellas, I in fact liked that show a lot (Top 5 of the year at least) and I like Sayaka and Kyouko a lot (their folders are even bigger than my waifu's). But that doesn't change the fact that them curbstomping all opposition does away with the competitiveness.

Kyouko didn't curbstomp Kuroneko. That was an extremely close match.

Sayaka looked to be losing against Haqua before she finally pulled it out. Sure, the vote totals told a different story due to fake votes being thrown out, but following the Sayaka/Haqua match was intense for me.

Hachiko briefly called Ika as the winner over Mami. That was a close match, with an intense finish.

I haven't seen curbstomps here in the Final 8. I've seen close, exciting matches, with quirky events (all the fakery in Madoka vs. Sayaka), and a nice upset (Erica over Lotte).

And to me, that makes the series domination much less problematic.

Also, I myself am glad that Erica is in the semifinals, for the same "B" reason that you are, as I wrote here.

For a comparison with ISML, Angel Beats! was my favorite series last year, yet I don't like how Tenshi went undefeated. Hell, not even scratched.

Yeah, and at least some PMMM girls are getting "scratched".


Edit:

Originally Posted by Eater of All

One of the reasons is simply popularity, and I don't mean the backlash against popularity kind.

Moe contests are partly popularity contests to begin with. You're more likely to find a character "moe" if you already like her (him).

When a series is popular, it tends to do well even if its characters are not as moe as their opponents.

I have yet to see anybody provide exact quantifiable measurements for moe. Without such measures, how moe a character is in comparison to another character is largely, if not entirely, subjective.

When a series dominates, people naturally attribute its domination to that popularity effect.

Sure. But then, given how modern anime tends to be character-driven, I would say that if an anime series is popular it's probably due (at least in part) to its characters being popular as well (in other words, popular characters help to create a popular show, not necessarily the other way around). There are exceptions, but they are rare, in my experience. At least within Japan, Madoka Magica does not appear to be an exception.

[Coldlight]

Originally Posted by Eater of All

One of the reasons is simply popularity, and I don't mean the backlash against popularity kind. When a series is popular, it tends to do well even if its characters are not as moe as their opponents. When a series dominates, people naturally attribute its domination to that popularity effect.

That's the inherent problem here, because moe is a very subjective concept (i.e. your moe is not my moe). To some people, those popular characters can be just as much, if not more moe than those others say are more moe, regardless of actual popularity.

You still have to remember that some series become very popular because there are many people who agree on how good it is and that its characters are moe. I'm not saying all obscure shows are bad, but there are some shows that remain obscure because the show and or its characters are also agreed upon to be bad. Those shows often suffer from the poor quality of the show itself despite having moe characters, and so they perform badly as a result.

The real debate then, is this: will Madoka characters dominate just as much if their series was not as popular?

This is why in practice, Saimoe has become a popularity contest of sorts. I understand your concern here about the playing field not being level for the other contenders. If you ask me that question, I say not as much, but given that it's widely agreed upon to be a good show with moe characters, there will still be a devoted, if smaller following around to support it.

I believe what you're trying to say is that popularity is a major factor for series domination, and that I agree with you on that, but it isn't the only factor necessary for a series to become as dominant as Madoka has become.

My point is, Madoka's domination isn't all completely about popularity, it's a mix of popularity, moe and a dash of some other external factors (e.g. luck of the draw, anti-voting, assassinations). Look at Bakemonogatari and Angel Beats! from last year, those are arguably very popular shows and yet their strongest characters fell in surprise upsets to relatively dark horse characters from less popular shows.

[zato_1one]

I don't accept any arguments why Homura was unable to enter the regular season of ISML. How the heck can you not prefer time commando girl who uses desert eagle, machine gun and bomb as her weapon contrary to the flashy magic wand? Yeah and she also calls herself magical girl!?! If the voters in ISML prelim couldn't perceive how awesome she was at that time then I'd say screw it! Seriously, she should have been easily qualified to regular season without the need of episode 10 (albeit may not doing as well as here... Oh shit! She was eliminated in round 1 here. So, I should say screw this too! LOL). Damn it! Even US Military loves her.

You gotta admit it, ISML voters don't like Ume-sensei design. ( | ___ |X) Yuno is not happy here. Even if she could pass to regular season of ISML. She would be only a fodder and would be treated like a joker anyway (just like what happened to Saki). If that would ever happen to her then I'd say that it would be best for her not to participate in it in the first place. I won't jump into argument about ISML anymore. But I agree with everyone here who doesn't like it. If you want to see Kanade vs Mikoto final then go watch ISML. It's not as if it is less predictable than this.

Back to the topic.

At last, the first contestant who can break over 700 votes. And that person is no other than the greatest Mami who is believe to be the strongest PMMM. Looking at her opponent, Ika's score can't even beat Kyouko who is believed to be the weakest PMMM...

Well, I think that the word weakest PMMM or strongest PMMM doesn't matter at all for other series. Their strength is differentiated by general voters which only matters when they face each other. At this point, it's certain that the votes for PMMM are from the same base group of fans. They are all devote to every PMMM with no inner-conflict. It means you will face the full force (or almost) of Tiro Finale even if your opponent is not Mami.

This is the target world line. PMMM warriors have changed the history. They are truly the force to be afraid of. Even Nanoha respects them. LOL

Talking about PMMM strength, I'd say that Madoka may not look that strong. But she has "Immune from Other PMMM" as her passive ability and "Collect Grief Seed from Other PMMM" as her active ability. So, she will win over other PMMM for sure. By the way, I still don't rule out Erica yet. Although, she is weaker than Kuroneko and Ika but she is now the last stand of resistance. Expect her to gain a huge support in next match. We will see if it's enough or not.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by Coldlight

Look at Bakemonogatari and Angel Beats! from last year, those are arguably very popular shows and yet their strongest characters fell in surprise upsets to relatively dark horse characters from less popular shows.

My waifu SenjougaharaTore-sama is too hot for this kind of tournament. I think that Bakemonogatari is one of those series which is not a Saimoe material. Just like Marcross Frontier or Code Geass, they are very popular show but their characters didn't do well in Saimoe. I'd say that their appeal is different from other characters in the tournament. They feel more mature. IMO

[Aya Reiko]

Originally Posted by jorez

Everything is clear, Madoka is going to win.

Also, is it me or are there a lot of "if my character doesn't win, then the tournament is boring blah blah blah, I don't like mainstream characters or series fandom having a great time in a japanese popularity tournament" posts in the last 8 pages?

People, it's just a tournament. I didn't even vote once.

I think it's been going on for longer than that. Or it feels like it. Regardless it's getting really, really tiresome.

I think the mods really need to start putting their feet down. And all this ISML ef'ery needs to come to and immediate and abrupt halt. If you want to talk about that one, take it to that thread.

tl;dr version: GET. BACK. ON. TOPIC. OR ELSE.

[RJ TAYLER]

With the GRAND FINAL now approaching us it has occurred to me that in some places the television coverage turns to the past in the run up to the big day itself, with 'marathons' of past finals being played overnight. With this in mind what would you programme during this time (a single episode from the winner/runner-up from 2002-2010 being the quickest and easiest)?

I will most likely spend another day gathering my thoughts on the semifinalists and of the three remaining matches for 2011, plus a look towards 2012.