um..what's Loli??

[Kamui4356]

Originally Posted by Hayami

I just wanted to clarify it,
since keeping the truth away could be quite difficult(impossible?), so the only way could be to get rid of lolicon worldwide.
On the other side - (even) if it hurts anime in USA, does it hurt anime in general?
And just how long should we hide lolicon from US citizens?

Also you didn't answered the question about the content: do you mean only lolicon hentai,
or anything , even the anime series i mentioned in my post?

Since many japanese production companies now figure US licensing revenue into they're caculations, it would hurt anime as whole. However, one wouldn't have to completely get rid of loli in anime. After all, it's not like the people who would be opposed to such content are going to activily seek it out... As long as it's not waved in front of them, there should be no problem.

As for not answering which series are acceptible, I don't really care one way or the other, plus I kind of lost the ability to tell what a normal person would find offensive... If you insist though, tsukuyomi should be fine. I fall to see anything wrong with it. bps I haven't seen, so I can't comment. Rizelmine, UFO princess, and poemi are all probably on the border between acceptible and unacceptable.
Loli hentai would definetly be considered unacceptable to the general public, who look down on hentai as a whole. However, since hentai as a whole is looked down on, one can argue that it poses less of a problem than a series like rizelmine would. After all it could be said that such series are trying to recruit new people who otherwise wouldn't give loli a second thought. Note that I am not saying that, I'm just pointing out that it could be said by some idiot out there.

I just don't want to turn on the tv and see some idiot, overprotective, fundamentalist mother on fox news calling for a boycott of anime because her son, or daughter, was watching something that she felt was trying to make him, or her, into a pedophile. Remember, these people would already be suspicious of anime as it is a foreign source that could be corrupting "traditional american values". Not that I'm saying this is likely to happen, but one can't completely discount the possibliity, however unlikely it is.

[dreamless]

huh, you think UFO Princess is borderline while Tsukuyomi is fine, that's really a strange thing, at least for me. I'd say Tsukuyomi is much more disturbing than UFO Princess.

I guess it shows how different people see things differently, and I don't think anyone can say he knows for sure the general public's exact opinions on different shows.

Anyway it's not for us to worry. Those Japanese anime companies can take care of things themselves and find a balance for their own best interest.

[Lina Inverse]

Originally Posted by Thany

Animes aren't porn, so it isn't illegal. If you don't like it, go to Mexico or Germany, I think it's illegal there.

What makes you think such a freaky odd thing?
Ok, I could imagine that they're quite uptight in Mexico, but over here, people are certainly a lot less prude than the general American.
We have many translated hentai manga over here, more ouvert stuff like Bondage Fairies, then ecchi stuff like Vampire Master (and Urushihara's older works as well), then adult-themed manga like Futari H... sure as hell ain't forbidden over here!

[AG3]

Originally Posted by MakubeX2

Let's just put it this way.....

If the lolicons posting in this thread goes around touching young girls in real life, would they still be here posting their opinions ? Are there news on the internet about anime (loli) fans getting too obess with their hobbies ? (Yes, there's Miyazaki, but that's ancient history.)

Yes, it may disturb you that there's such a trend going on. But as long as they do not mix fantasy with reality, just leave them alone.

Miyazaki was probably fucked up long before he got into loli anime.

To rip from another post I made around here somewhere...

How are people who enjoy this kind of thing:

less messed up than those who enjoy this kind of thing:


Not extremely loli, perhaps, it shows better in the "other" type of images which I can't post here, as the rules allow blood, gore and massacre, but not full nudity/sex. Not that it bothers me, really, it's just the way things work. Anyway, as I like both loli entertainment and action ("violent") entertainment, I guess I'm doubly messed up. I'll probably kill loads of innocent people and rape little girls any day now. Or maybe not...

Reading a book about the second world war doesn't make me try to start another one like it, regardless of how much I like the book. Loli anime and games don't make me chase underage girls, no matter how much I like it. Violent movies and games don't make me go around assaulting people, no matter how much I like it. No matter what type of "dubious" entertainment we're talking about; if it makes you blatantly copy its contents in the real world without regard to common sense, you're messed up and need to seek help.

[kujoe]

Originally Posted by Hayami

In this case your "non-lolicon" is more than just this, but a close minded, intolerant person.
I would never ask other person such questions even if i would hate the content. Period.

Really?

That's quite odd--considering those are very ordinary and realistic questions. What's so close-minded about wanting to hear your own point of view? In this instance, not even the most close-minded person is accusing anyone of anything yet. (Well, this could also be an instance of someone judging you at first glance, but for the sake of discussion...) This is just someone asking simple and realistic questions.

And oh yes, guro and the rest, huh? What makes you say that I might think loli is more extreme than guro? No one is saying such thing. The reason why loli has garnered such an attention is because it's more prevalent. Even a non-loli, harem anime has at least one underaged-looking, female character for the sake of variety. There's also a certain world view that's also being communicated in loli scenarios--but I think that's going severely off-topic so I won't get into that.

[StoneColdCrazy]

Originally Posted by bayoab

.... Wrong country. The whole point that you were supposed to prove is that it is legal in JAPAN.

Although that'd be useful, I'm not sure it'd be that easy to do, as it'd probably involve searching through Japanese legal documents, indexed in Japanese, on Japanese websites, only found by Japanese search engines that themselves require input in Japanese.

Originally Posted by Hayami

It's also the reason why i wonder if i really want to visit Tokyo,
i don't want to kill the Tokyo of Misaki & Kamui in my mind.

Reminds me of the short story Yam Gruel, by Akutagawa Ryunosuke, who also wrote Rashomon.

Originally Posted by Hayami

who knows, may be in the future people will look back at our time
just like we look back at times, when "witches" and "heretics" were burnt at the stake.

That's exactly what they'll do because the march of time has inevitably given us hindsight and made us far more moral and rational as a race. If people alive today think what we have achieved morally is as good as we'll ever get, that we're a shining example of virtue and goodness and that none of our values or standards can be challenged, they are so horribly, horribly mistaken. I'm sure some of what we do nowadays will be considered naieve, stupid or immoral in a few hundred years time. Anyone who thinks there is no room for improvement in society is part of the problem.

(Although "History has taught us that people never learn anything from history," said Hegel.)

Originally Posted by TronDD

To me, lusting after anyone that is a real human being is wrong. It objectifies them for your own sexual desires. I don't care what their age or level of maturity is. You're one step away form raping them, which you would do if you could get away with it.

Well, ummm... Hmm. Speak for yourself.

Originally Posted by MakubeX2

Are there news on the internet about anime (loli) fans getting too obess with their hobbies?

Yes, I think the issue here is "Has it actually caused any problems anywhere?" Given that there must be thousands and thousands of people happily enjoying this concept, and yet not thousands and thousands of people going around committing related crimes or thousands and thousands of people damaged by it, then logic dictates that it's not harmful and is more likely to be another example of a scapegoat cited by parties who themselves want to shift responsibility away from other causes. "Improbable as it is, all other explanations are more improbable still," as Holmes said. And no matter how crazily improbable it is, Japan, with all it's violent sexual material, has one of the lowest rates of sex crime anywhere.

I find it odd how this joins the ranks of computer games, roleplaying games, TV, movies and rock music, all of which would apparently have us all committing crimes left right and center if we believed everything we heard. But wait! We don't believe everything we hear, so maybe we're not so totally under the sway of the media around us (and if we were anyway, there's so much media about we'd become indecisive and incompetent.)

(Incidentally, why is it so often the Christian Right that finds scapegoats and attacks such issues, when, statistically, the Christian religion has been far more damaging and violent than all of these other things put together?)

Since the only people who seem to be significantly affected by this are those who are merely offended by it and yet have the choice to ignore it, it seems more sensible for them to direct their energies elsewhere and deal with real problems that exist, outside their front doors, in the real world, not inside their heads, such as global warming, nuclear proliferation and racism, issues that have been statistically proven to cause problems or end lives (providing this doesn't, of course, somehow impede them financially). I'm slightly concerned that they draw the line between the subject and the problem, suggesting that in their heads it's most obvious connection is to a crime. Assuming that everyone else works the same way is dangerous. But then that was the thought process behind pornography anyway - when the Victorians invented the word 'pornography' in 1850 and started banning material they considered pornographic it was based on their considerations of what was arousing or erotic, a mentality that persists to this day - see this, this, this and a hundred more cases of "I think it's porn, so YOU must think it's porn!"*

Personally, I don't go about assuming everyone else is thinking the same things as I am, but I'm quite aware that in a culture that's constantly talking about sex crime, paedophilia and pornography then obviously those things are going to be hanging around in the minds of the weak and fearful. In the links I listed above, how many photo developers were told by their bosses to "Look out for inappropriate material"? What do they consider inappropriate and worth calling the police over? It's up to them, but once they see something and think "Hmm, maybe that's not right" and call the police, showing the police a photo and saying "Maybe this is child porn, but what do I know? I'm not some evil paedophile" and causes the police officer to then also think "Hmm, well, I guess maybe someone somewhere could get off on that, I'm not sure but with all this talk of child porn about I want to be careful and the issues certainly in my head all the time and being rammed home every day and is surely not causing me to look at everything ever and wonder if maybe it could be somehow connected to or considered as child porn...

...After all, won't anybody think of the children?! (No, not like that) and so maybe we should lock these people away? I'm sure I've not at all been influenced by the media's massive preoccupation with child porn causing me to always have it in the back of my mind and affect my perception of everything ever."

...Which takes me all the way back to rock music and videogames and so on... exactly who are we saying are the people taking bad influence from the media and what are they supposedly being made to think and do?

(And anyway, on the subject of thinking not being the same as doing: What the hell?)

SCC

*I'm not sure if "I think she looks 15, so you must think she looks 15!" is also a manifest mindset but the age guessing game is a whole different affair and just as futile.

[Thany]

Originally Posted by Lina Inverse

What makes you think such a freaky odd thing?

Actually I was talking about loli hentai : well at least, that's what mantidor said about Mexico. Maybe he was just saying that because he was a "proud" anti lolicon.

Not extremely loli, perhaps, it shows better in the "other" type of images which I can't post here, as the rules allow blood, gore and massacre, but not full nudity/sex. Not that it bothers me, really, it's just the way things work. Anyway, as I like both loli entertainment and action ("violent") entertainment, I guess I'm doubly messed up. I'll probably kill loads of innocent people and rape little girls any day now. Or maybe not...

I don't think there is any need for explicit content if you point out it comes from a H-game :P

Spoiler:

[AG3]

Originally Posted by Thany

I don't think there is any need for explicit content if you point out it comes from a H-game :P

Spoiler:

I was just saying that the girl in the photo might not look "loli" enough, but that it shows better in the "other" pictures. Of course, your example illustrated my point better than my own picture. I don't have too many Japanese ero-games, unfortunately. I tend to stick to those with somewhat less storytelling, as my knowledge of the Japanese language is lightyears away from even being called "sucks" (it's virtually non-existant). By the way; nice picture I wouldn't mind playing that game, if I could only understand squat -_-;

[Thany]

Originally Posted by AG3

I was just saying that the girl in the photo might not look "loli" enough, but that it shows better in the "other" pictures. Of course, your example illustrated my point better than my own picture. I don't have too many Japanese ero-games, unfortunately. I tend to stick to those with somewhat less storytelling, as my knowledge of the Japanese language is lightyears away from even being called "sucks" (it's virtually non-existant). By the way; nice picture I wouldn't mind playing that game, if I could only understand squat -_-;

Usually, then the best idea to enjoy those sort of games is to get fandiscs which are usually containing mini games that are easily understandable and quite interesting

Spoiler:

[HoboGod]

I believe pedophile is sick and horrible. i believe the people who make certain loli and who enjoy it are fucked up and should hide their sick obsession from society's eye.

But it isn't my place to force my views upon others unless my views have been chalenged. What upsets me is that less than 20% of everyone who has seen this topic so far would permit something like this. Is it just because this pedophile is in the anime form or would pedophile in other art forms also be permited by 80% of this community? How about music that explicitly sings about raping children? Or subtle photography of children that don't know their being sexual? Is there a difference between that and certain loli?

[NoSanninWa]

Originally Posted by Thany

Usually, then the best idea to enjoy those sort of games is to get fandiscs which are usually containing mini games that are easily understandable and quite interesting

Spoiler:

What's going on in that picture? It looks like buying and selling young slave girls.

[dreamless]

Originally Posted by NoSanninWa

What's going on in that picture? It looks like buying and selling young slave girls.

It's some simplified mahjong game, with the pieces having girls' images on it instead of circles, bars, kanji characters etc. etc. it says a "basical win" +90, a "pre-announce of winning" +100, so the winner get +190 points, while loser -190 points. looks interesting... though I prefer some real mahjong games... like... umm... Elf All Star or Jenkitan

[Hayami]

Originally Posted by kujoe

Really?

That's quite odd--considering those are very ordinary and realistic questions. What's so close-minded about wanting to hear your own point of view? In this instance, not even the most close-minded person is accusing anyone of anything yet. (Well, this could also be an instance of someone judging you at first glance, but for the sake of discussion...) This is just someone asking simple and realistic questions.

And oh yes, guro and the rest, huh? What makes you say that I might think loli is more extreme than guro? No one is saying such thing. The reason why loli has garnered such an attention is because it's more prevalent. Even a non-loli, harem anime has at least one underaged-looking, female character for the sake of variety. There's also a certain world view that's also being communicated in loli scenarios--but I think that's going severely off-topic so I won't get into that.

Ask questions, huh? I is an indrirect judgment,
as if i would ask a CS player : "Du you like to kill people?"
Or would ask someone who just posted a Yaoi torrent: "Are you gay?"
Or ask someone who likes furry or bestiality (anime!) : are you aroused by animals?
These are extremely tactless questions of a closeminded person.
( and i would never ask something like that )

Also it's just normal to make *a little* background research before asking question,
especially about something that appears odd to you.
If this appears disgusting to you, there is even more reasons to do research
before you ask the question ( if you really need to ask it ).
If a person would so a little research ( just use google,
or "Search" button if you are in big forum like animesuki ),
he/she would find out pretty fast that many loli fans regard such questions as quite offensive.

Actually you even don't need to use search, just use a little bit of common sense.
I mean, i would never ask a person who ( as i know ) loves, say, a band X,
"Why do you hear their music, it's so <insert your negative judgment here>"
Even if you don't add your negative judgment, if it is clear that you dislike it at all,
and you ask so that it is clear that you don't like it, i don't see what good will come from this question.
Again, i consider it tactless.

If you don't consider guro more harmful or unethical than loli,
in this case my example should make even more sense for you
( that i would not ask a guro fan why he likes it ).

[kujoe]

Originally Posted by Hayami

Ask questions, huh? I is an indrirect judgment,
as if i would ask a CS player : "Du you like to kill people?"
Or would ask someone who just posted a Yaoi torrent: "Are you gay?"
Or ask someone who likes furry or bestiality (anime!) : are you aroused by animals?
These are extremely tactless questions of a closeminded person.
( and i would never ask something like that )

Questions of a close-minded person? Strange, it didn't seem that way last time I checked. Ok. How about this then: "Why do you like it?" Does that sound better? It's a perfectly reasonable and realistic question from a person who has encountered loli for the first time.

And I'm afraid you're taking it too far. CS is a game. People play games, and most of the time, they have no problem admitting that games can be violent because they are. And tell me, are you seriously going to ask such a question? A more fitting question to that would be just the same: "Doesn't it bother you? All that violence and you feel numb to its effects?"

You've used the word "gay" and the phrase "kill people" which to me is closer to a direct accusation. To match your analogy, I would've said something close to "Are you a pedophile?" We all know where that will lead to, right?

Originally Posted by Hayami

Also it's just normal to make *a little* background research before asking question,
especially about something that appears odd to you.

So now you expect the "normal" person ("normal," as in having no anime-related interests at all) to do some research when he or she can directly hear it from your mouth? Somehow, that sounds more impolite to me, or perhaps you just have a thing against being asked such a question. It's just a simple scenario.

Originally Posted by Hayami

he/she would find out pretty fast that many loli fans regard such questions as quite offensive.

Interesting. Why it so offensive? I have yet to come across a loli fan who got pissed with me for discussing their love for all things loli with them. (Ok. Maybe you're the first...and it's quite strange, since our original points of contention are the differing views we have regarding the relationship between real life and the imaginary world. Minus the moments of miscommunication, of course.)

Originally Posted by Hayami

Actually you even don't need to use search, just use a little bit of common sense.
I mean, i would never ask a person who ( as i know ) loves, say, a band X,
"Why do you hear their music, it's so <insert your negative judgment here>"
Even if you don't add your negative judgment, if it is clear that you dislike it at all,
and you ask so that it is clear that you don't like it, i don't see what good will come from this question.

True. Some bad language can stem from such a question sometimes. However, I would at least like to think that there are some people out there who can let go of the trigger button just for that one moment and discuss things openly.

I mean seriously... It's as if you yourself are already prejudging these "close-minded" people to be such assholes that they have to ask you a question in order to offend you. If that's part of your overall experience, well, I can understand.

Originally Posted by Hayami

If you don't consider guro more harmful or unethical than loli,
in this case my example should make even more sense for you
( that i would not ask a guro fan why he likes it ).

Actually--as ridiculous as it may sound--I would ask that question to a guro fan, primarily because I think it would be interesting to seriously study the common themes involved in it.

[Hayami]

Originally Posted by kujoe

Questions of a close-minded person? Strange, it didn't seem that way last time I checked.

OK, i correct myself then: the one asing such questions is intolerant&closeminded OR tactless.
The last one is not better imo, i can't stand tactless people.
Just how can't you understand that it's basicly the same
to ask "are you p.?" or ask questions which lead to the same.
I mean, if it would bother a loli fan, could he be one in the first place?
So isn't this question senseless? It's rather an opinion,
and there is judgment hidden in it, because why would you ask him?
It's like telling "just how can you like it?" - sorry, if this is not judgment, i don't know what judgment is!

As for being the only one who hate such questions -
i think you are wrong and many of loli fans do have "a thing" against such talk.

Accusing me in being impolite? In my opinion you are the impolite one asking such questions.
But guess this discussion leads nowhere...

[AG3]

Originally Posted by HoboGod

I believe pedophile is sick and horrible

So do I.

Originally Posted by HoboGod

i believe the people who make certain loli and who enjoy it are fucked up and should hide their sick obsession from society's eye.

You said "certain" loli. Any particular type you're referring to?

I think there's a point in exactly what a person's reaction to loli entertainment is. Indeed, for ALL entertainment and recreation. I'll clarify:

You are watching ero-anime of the "stronger" type. Let's say, for topic relevance, that some of the characters are typical loli type. Now, if you are watching it simply to be aroused (and it does just that), then fine. It's not really a problem. If you watch this because you are aroused by the prospect of treating real-life minors that way, you... might have a slight problem. Maybe more than just slight.

It's the same for action entertainment. If you watch "Rambo", then feel like taking the biggest hunting knife you can get and walk around the city looking for trouble, you might want to consider getting some help.

Or let's take a documentary (those are good, right?), or a movie based on real historical events. Let's take one depicting how jews were annihilated in extermination camps by Nazis. If you watch this in order to learn about some of the most fucked up people the human race has seen, one of the most messed up ideologies to slither across the earth, then it's basically a good thing. After all, as the saying goes, those who forget/ignore history are doomed to repeat it. If you're watching it because you think that's the way jews should be treated, then I hope, for the sake of humanity, that you're currently inflicted with incurable and extremely painful cancer that will give you 2 weeks more to live, tops.


I think the motive and reaction to entertainment (any recreation) is more important than the media and its contents. Humans are able to enjoy fiction, even if they don't agree with the contents morality and such, should it be put in real-life situations. This goes for violent movies, an accepted form of entertainment. So why not for sex?

Is it simply because the characters depicted looks underage? It might look like a duck and quack like a duck, except that the looks are simply drawings made by people, and the quacking is a paid voice actress who, by some un-godly ritual, can sport a voice of a far higher pitch than any mino... duck, I've ever met.

It's kinda weird how people can stomach enjoying people killed in entertainment, but not minor-looking characters involved in sex, no matter how consensual.

Also, people don't seem to object much to books with such contents. It's just when pictures appear that it's wrong. Why? The motivation behind its consumption?

Rant, rant, rant, rant, rant, rant.... I hate it when I start getting in rant mode. So much text, so little substance...

[Thany]

I definitly think we should at first show people what is a loli characters by providing pictures (non H), so they can be sure about what we are talking about! (I'm sure a lot of people are interested in that too)

Spoiler:

Also, I'm not sure if it has been already said, but loli characters are not always given the age of 18, sometimes they just don't give any age at all (that's the case for most F&C loli characters).

[Hayami]

( deleted )

[mantidor]

oh my god... it revived! why oh God why!?

I have to say Im pretty happy since I came to an agreement and understanding with boneyjellyfish and TronDD which was really unexpected and surprising, but I have to coment on some points I've read:

Originally Posted by hayami

It's a fact, that there are not more acts of crime against children in Japan, than in average countries
where lolicon is either less accepted or illegal ( or on the edge of legality ).

lol, you arent serious, right? Its a well known fact that Japan is the number one producer of child pornography in the world. Even if it isnt, which I doubt, is still one of the main producers of this kind of material. I read somewhere that Japan started to act legally against it just because international pressure, otherwise they wouldnt do anything, they are very tolerant towards it. Ever heard of enjo-kosai?, I remember kj1980 saying to us how although its illegal police doesnt do anything since its a very widespread practice. You should get your facts straight.

Originally Posted by hayami

[...] But this all is NO EXCUSE for attacking anyone, who likes lolicon!

And is also no excuse to attack anyone who dislikes it, if you do it you are being a hypocrite. Something I found rather amusing about your position.

Originally Posted by Hayami

OK, i correct myself then: the one asing such questions is intolerant&closeminded OR tactless.

[...]

Accusing me in being impolite? In my opinion you are the impolite one asking such questions.
But guess this discussion leads nowhere...

Kujoe point out something very valid, someone doesnt know a thing about loli, he/she watches it and asks you those very valid questions imo, is really your response that he/she is a close minded individual? I think you are the one closed minded, you feel that any comment about loli that it isnt "loli rocks" its some sort of personal attack to you and your brethern. I love yaoi with passion, but someone asking me if Im gay its a very, very valid question, I wouldnt get so upset about it as you do.

Originally Posted by Hayami

Would you mind to follow your own suggestion and not giving me such advices in the thread?
Damn, do we really need this argument among these who try to defend freedom?

defend freedom?... oh well anyway I find amusing you saying how we, the people who dont like loli, are closed minded and uptight when you are one of the most uptight individuals Ive ever met in a forum. The previous quote and the one before that speak for themselves.

Originally Posted by Thany

Actually I was talking about loli hentai : well at least, that's what mantidor said about Mexico. Maybe he was just saying that because he was a "proud" anti lolicon.

Im from Colombia. Yes, drawings of underaged boys or girls in sexual situations are illegal. Is that really that terrible?, for what I can see in this thread, you became lolicons because you stumbled upon loli material, you werent specifically searching for it, because if you were, you are definetaly a pedophile... actually this would be a good point of discussion. My point is that theres no harm of "freedom of speech" if loli material gets banned, since the only people specifically looking for it would be pedophiles.

Originally Posted by Thany

Don't you have anything else to do than just plain trolling this topic? :P

Dont you have anything better to do than stop being such a hypocrite? People are entitled to their position and way of thinking, just because you disagree doesnt give you the right to quote someone like that, its very rude and impolite (although I wont go crying to a mod to get it edited ). Some people find lolikon really disgusting, their opinion is just as valid as yours. why you demand tolerance and respect when you dont tolerate and respect others? Ive been bashed here and there for my likes of yaoi, I even got negative rep, but I dont act they way you do, I can perfectly understand if people are disgusted by homosexual themes, I dont jump on them calling closed minded pricks or anything like that.

[mantidor]

Originally Posted by Thany

Welcome in my ignore list.
If you can't understand the difference between fiction and reality, it's not my fault.
I'm really sick of people like you, the fact it is illegal in your country doesn't mean there is a good reason behind it.
Personally I don't care if it's legal or not in your country anyway, it's not like I'm ever going to live there anyway (I don't speak Spanish).

Just more proof you are being hypocrite, you are perfectly entitled to quote someone the way you did, but Im a troll because I pointed out that fact whatever, I was expecting you to at least try to refute my ideas.