[Manga] Naruto Chapter 564 Discussion

[AvalonCode]

I somehow see Sasuke taking out Tobi. I dont know why but, looking at the last page in ch553 tells me that Sasuke got what he wanted from Tobi (jus like what happened to Orichi) i.e. he is useless to his growth now and Sasuke just might try to k.o.s Tobi

[Hanzoman]

Originally Posted by Detective-san

Yes, exactly, I found them underwhelming, I know that neither side was damaged but Tobi's side controlled the pace of the fight while the two of them were stuck trying to escape the next volley of attacks, yes the circumstances are unfavorable but Naruto is using the fox-cloak, that should be more than enough, really.

Enough to back down Tobi, controlling six jinchuriki equipped with the sharingan, rinnegan as well as their own special techniques? You have got to be joking. Edo-Nagato alone was able to overwhelm Naruto and Bee, where ultimately, it took Itachi's intervention to win the fight. The odds in this case are so unevenly stacked, that I don't see how Naruto and Bee can win without: (a)more intervention, or (b) a horribly contrived, ass-pull plot-device. No, Naruto and Bee being on the defensive as they were should definitely be expected, at the very least.

[AuroraFlash]

Well, even the Hachibi is needed to counterweight the power of the Kyuubi, so if Naruto really gains full power, then Hachibi and Kyuubi will be more than enough to deal with all the others.

[Shining Celebi]

Originally Posted by AuroraFlash

Well, even the Hachibi is needed to counterweight the power of the Kyuubi, so if Naruto really gains full power, then Hachibi and Kyuubi will be more than enough to deal with all the others.

I was actually thinking earlier, that for whatever reason, Naruto's kyuubi mode doesn't come close to the actual power of the kyuubi. So of the kyuubi decides to really help Naruto, like the past chapters have been leading up to, it may be that Naruto becomes much more powerful in a believable way.

To me this is illustrated in the Pain fight - the kyuubi is much more effective against Pain than Naruto was against Nagato, even before it got to 8 tails. It was even able to reverse his attacks back on him, and of course easily breaking out of the moon-attack.

[AuroraFlash]

Originally Posted by Shining Celebi

I was actually thinking earlier, that for whatever reason, Naruto's kyuubi mode doesn't come close to the actual power of the kyuubi. So of the kyuubi decides to really help Naruto, like the past chapters have been leading up to, it may be that Naruto becomes much more powerful in a believable way.

To me this is illustrated in the Pain fight - the kyuubi is much more effective against Pain than Naruto was against Nagato, even before it got to 8 tails. It was even able to reverse his attacks back on him, and of course easily breaking out of the moon-attack.

That's right my friend. Even when Naruto met the real Nagato, the Kyuubi helped to repel the mind control. Nagato tried to just control Naruto and the Sage mode wouldn't have been enough to withstand but that's when that nice picture was made.

[MysticNinjaJay]

Originally Posted by AuroraFlash

First of all, Obito would not only have been around in Kakashi's early days if he was the Tobi-Madara, he, a hero who's name was carved into the memorial of Konoha, would be the one who pulled the strings of history ever since.

It was this person who helped Itachi kill the Uchiha and it was this person who was behind the attack on Konoha. They keep talking about Madara, but in fact we know that it was this person behind the mask who did it. He destroyed both Naruto's and Sasuke's families, killed both their parents and is responsible for the death of many other people, Kage as well as for example Iruka's parents.

This stands for the person itself, the masked man, but it has also something to do with the heroes becoming villains. Obito would line up with the Akatsuki who oppose and idea – the idea of heroes, ninjas, villages, even Kage.
It's a silently spoken word, but the voices are whispering about Naruto still having the potential to become a villain himself. Naruto said how he and Sasuke could live the life of the other and so on, how Itachi turned into a villain because he thought he could manage everything by himself.

You have good insight into the themes surrounding this manga.

Whoever Tobi is it's obvious that he wishes to conceal his true identity.

That's why he wears the mask.

Whoever he is he must be known to the ninja world.

He's a master manipulator. He's responsible for key events in the series including
the Kyuubi's attack on Konoha which resulted in the death of Naruto's parents and was a catalyst to Itachi slaughtering the Uchiha to prevent another war from breaking out because the Uchiha themselves were planning to take over the village.

My suspicion is that he's someone significant who is rumored to be dead but is in fact the character known as Tobi.

He used Madara's reputation to get the attention of the entire Ninja world and Madara appears to be his partner.

It's obviously not Obito. Obito is a figure of Kakashi's past who was like Naruto in that he was not a naturally talented Ninja but had a passion for righteousness who influenced Kakashi significantly leading to the wise Kakashi of the present.

Kakashi is not the main character of the story.

Naruto is.

Tobi is connected to Naruto, Sasuke and the fate of the world in the manga.

Whoever he is I'm expecting some major jaw dropping revelations when his identity is revealed.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Shining Celebi

It was even able to reverse his attacks back on him, and of course easily breaking out of the moon-attack.

The kyuubi never broke out of the Chibaku Tensei, it was captured. But Tobi or Madara would capture it in a much easier way, they would use their genjutsu and summoning as Tobi did when he attacked Konoha. The demons are just tools in this manga, they are useless if the ninja using them is not good enough, that's why akatsuki members captured almost all demons and killed all their hosts. Even KillerBee doesn't have a chance on this level, despite he is the perfect host, because being in 100% control just means he can use the full power of the demon but the ninja qualities of this level are stronger than the chakra and raw power quantity of a demon. So Naruto needs a fundamentally different way of powerup than any other demon hosts have (including Bee, the perfect host), in other words Naruto needs plot MAGIC. And he got that, we see when he finally gained control over they kyuubi he does not look like any of the hosts, he has the signs of being the sage of the 6 paths all over him, plus the kyuubi feels the presence of the sage of 6 paths. But we see that his transformation is not complete, there are many hints that Naruto's transformation is not complete but when it happens it will be a major powerup. Among them is the strange patterns on Naruto, they seem to be something unfinished. We also know that he didn't gain 100% control over the kyuubi yet. Naruto also has sage mode, which is known to boost the power of a person, and thus allow to complete a jutsu like rasenshuriken, so maybe it's meant to also allow completing the full transformation when combined with kyuubi mode.

The reason behind this plot magic was not yet given by Kishimoto, but i guess he will eventually create some back story for this, where every detail connects to the whole picture.

My theory is that the frogs were given the secret of sage mode by the sage of 6 paths. Because no other summon animal knows anything that they can teach their summoner. And the sage gave it to the frogs because they are usually the summon animals of altruistic type of people like Jiraiya and Naruto, those who have higher chance to be good. The very old frog was made so senile by Kishimoto so that he does not remember who gave him the secret of the sage mode, that allows the author to reveal it later
As for Naruto, i think he should have the bloodline of the sage, which means the sage was an Uzumaki. I can't think of any other reason why would Naruto's body react in such way that the kyuubi senses the sage of the 6 paths. Another possibility would be that because he used sage mode at the time when he tamed the kyuubi, it was the sage mode+kyuubi mode that made the kyuubi feel the sage's chakra, but in that case why there is no difference in how Naruto looks like when he uses only kyuubi mode. The latter possibility would take away the chance of the combination powerup, also it would make Nagato being an Uzumaki meaningles, so i believe in the first possibility.

[iBeast]

I actually don't even care who Tobi is anymore... masks are for clowns.

With all of this chaos going on now, this would be the perfect time for Sasuke to attack the Konoha elders... nobody is there to defend them. Kishi needs to keep up.

[MysticNinjaJay]

Originally Posted by iBeast

I actually don't even care who Tobi is anymore... masks are for clowns.

With all of this chaos going on now, this would be the perfect time for Sasuke to attack the Konoha elders... nobody is there to defend them. Kishi needs to keep up.

Don't forget that Sasuke's mind has become so twisted that the Konoha elders are not his main target anymore. He wants to kill all Leaf Villagers for benefiting from the destruction of his clan. Tobi has planted the idea in his mind that the Uchiha clan were the eternal victims of a village that feared their power.

Sasuke has forgiven his brother understanding his sacrifice but his hatred was redirected not just at Danzou and the people directly responsible but the rest of the village who were not aware of the Uchiha massacre plot yet enjoyed peace at the expense of Sasuke's pain.

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by MysticNinjaJay

You have good insight into the themes surrounding this manga.

Whoever Tobi is it's obvious that he wishes to conceal his true identity.

That's why he wears the mask.

Whoever he is he must be known to the ninja world.

He's a master manipulator. He's responsible for key events in the series including
the Kyuubi's attack on Konoha which resulted in the death of Naruto's parents and was a catalyst to Itachi slaughtering the Uchiha to prevent another war from breaking out because the Uchiha themselves were planning to take over the village.

My suspicion is that he's someone significant who is rumored to be dead but is in fact the character known as Tobi.

He used Madara's reputation to get the attention of the entire Ninja world and Madara appears to be his partner.

It's obviously not Obito. Obito is a figure of Kakashi's past who was like Naruto in that he was not a naturally talented Ninja but had a passion for righteousness who influenced Kakashi significantly leading to the wise Kakashi of the present.

Kakashi is not the main character of the story.

Naruto is.

Tobi is connected to Naruto, Sasuke and the fate of the world in the manga.

Whoever he is I'm expecting some major jaw dropping revelations when his identity is revealed.

Careful. Those sound a lot like the assumptions people made about Pein's identity way back when.

Because Pain's face was constantly kept hidden and he went out his way not show himself to the outside world, we figured he must be someone famous and immediately recognizable to the ninja world and probably believed to be long dead. Because he was leader of Akatsuki, and at the time, thought likely to be the main villain, many also assumed he was someone tied directly to Naruto's past.

Well he didn't end up fitting much of those ideas. He wasn't really part of Naruto's past, but Jiraiya's. He wasn't someone the readers had been introduced to before and his identity wasn't widely known in the rest of the world... it was his doujustu, the Rinnegan, that was legendary.

Whoever or whatever Tobi is, I don't think the possibilities are limited to characters that are directly tied to Naruto or who are already known to be famous within the ninja world. I mean, if Tobi were already someone highly feared/respected, there should be no reason he had to take Madara's identity to gain notoriety. And really, the histories of everyone in Naruto are so inter-connected Tobi could be from just about anyone's past and it could be tied back to Naruto's past somehow.

Originally Posted by iBeast

With all of this chaos going on now, this would be the perfect time for Sasuke to attack the Konoha elders... nobody is there to defend them. Kishi needs to keep up.

Yeah, but he probably won't since he's vowed that Naruto will be the first person from the Leaf he kills.

[Vindi89]

Originally Posted by AuroraFlash

Well, those beasts do not have a personality. This is what has been shown with the 3-Tails. They are chakra and only through the host interaction they gain some kind of consciousness.
Didn't they even say that it has something to do with the evil and pain inside the host? Tailed beasts are kind of mindless bags full of chakra...

The Kyuubi was shown talking outside of a host during its attack on Minato and Kushina. Also, atleast from the 8 and 9 tails, we know they do have a personality and I doubt their personality emerged just because they're in a host. The kyuubi had a clear dislike for Madara which was independent of anything he could have gain from residing within Naruto.

[Frenchie]

Originally Posted by Vindi89

The Kyuubi was shown talking outside of a host during its attack on Minato and Kushina.

You do realise that the Kyuubi resided in Kushina, back then, right?

[Vindi89]

Originally Posted by Frenchie

You do realise that the Kyuubi resided in Kushina, back then, right?

Yes, that's why I specifically said outside of a host.

[MysticNinjaJay]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

Careful. Those sound a lot like the assumptions people made about Pein's identity way back when.

Because Pain's face was constantly kept hidden and he went out his way not show himself to the outside world, we figured he must be someone famous and immediately recognizable to the ninja world and probably believed to be long dead. Because he was leader of Akatsuki, and at the time, thought likely to be the main villain, many also assumed he was someone tied directly to Naruto's past.

Well he didn't end up fitting much of those ideas. He wasn't really part of Naruto's past, but Jiraiya's. He wasn't someone the readers had been introduced to before and his identity wasn't widely known in the rest of the world... it was his doujustu, the Rinnegan, that was legendary.

Whoever or whatever Tobi is, I don't think the possibilities are limited to characters that are directly tied to Naruto or who are already known to be famous within the ninja world. I mean, if Tobi were already someone highly feared/respected, there should be no reason he had to take Madara's identity to gain notoriety. And really, the histories of everyone in Naruto are so inter-connected Tobi could be from just about anyone's past and it could be tied back to Naruto's past somehow.

Good points.

Whoever Tobi is though his identity is significantly.

I don't think he's some random Ninja X. He's probably a Ninja we have or haven't heard of yet that has interesting reasons for doing what he is doing. Some people have suggested that he is Madara's brother who we thought died after he gave up his eyes.

Is Tobi an Uchiha?

That's not guaranteed considering the fact that eyes and other techniques can be stolen.

Thinking back on earlier chapters two interesting details stand out to me:

1. Tobi revealed his face to Kisame and Kisame recognized him immediately

2. Tobi stated that the Rinnegan he retrieved from Nagato belonged to him originally

So Tobi is probably a direct descendant of the Sage of Six Paths.

Since he's clearly not Madara I wonder how he got the Rinnegan.

He doesn't have the eternal Mangekyo Sharingan and his body has limitations that keep him from fighting a proper battle.

Whoever he is he has to be significant to rationalize all of this secrecy.

[yakumo-chan]

Tobi is someone all the readers know, there's no point of hiding his face even without the mask.

why did the Author hides his face in front of Kisame?
It will be stupid if TObi is someone we dont know... I mean for all this years... come on its gotta be someone we know

[james0246]

^He doesn't have to be someone we know, he just has to look like someone we know. .

That being said, please move all "Who is Tobi?" discussions to the official thread.

[ChronoReverse]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

The kyuubi never broke out of the Chibaku Tensei, it was captured.

Eh? 8 tails was already breaking out. Even Nagato was going "I can't believe it".

Nagato was about to try to oppose 9-tails more but we don't know if it would have worked because of other circumstances. We do know that moments later, Naruto was outside in Sage Mode while Nagato coughed up blood while Chibaku Tensei collapsed.

Finally Nagato himself mentioned "I wanted to test the fox's power but never thought it'd be stronger than Chibaku Tensei".

Chapter 493 page 13.

[james0246]

Chapter 565 thread has been opened. Please move all relevant discussions to the new thread.