Medaka Box [Manga]

[LeaD36]

animal farm much?

[kenjtr]

in my religion ( islam ) when people become muslim ( accept islam as religion ) all their past sins are forgiven , but if they abused other peoples rights ( rape , steal , kill , fraud , torture etc.. ) these things can only be forgiven by the people who recived damage so unless that person doesnt forgive you youll ove him/her no matter what .

What i mean here is Medakas action of forgiving people just only concers her and no one else , people medaka forgive is just forgiven by her thats all its not like all their sins are erased . Well ill give medakas credit here cause she never said people she reformed arent guilty but she never asked them repent their mistakes to people they hurt too , from my point of wiev medaka just flushes all opinions except herself and she just doesnt give a damn abaut people .

I would support medaka if she said repent their past mistakes to people she reformed but she just accept their mistakes too and thats wrong , its like saying " even if you are serial killed who butchered 100 people i accept you the way you are and you deserve happiness too " confusion comes here cause what medaka done here steal all the hapiness from the people who suffered with forgiving guilty .

Maybe medaka just forgives what has happened to her but that doesnt seem the case , what i wonder is there are things even god wont forgive so with which title medaka forgives everyone and does she have any right for this ?

[Tenchi Hou Take]

Originally Posted by sungreentakeo

Well, the point of the example is that he doesn't get punished and he's genuinely reformed instantly. He doesn't need to be punished to really change. Any punishment would simply be retribution. He's part of the Medaka catch and release program. No jail time necessary nor penalties imposed, but Jeffrey Dahmer becomes a reformed and happy man. This is an example of how Medaka's type of justice can be unsatisfying. It's not supposed to give you a right answer; it's supposed to make you pause and think and feel. You can talk platitudes, but how would you feel about it you or your loved one were the victim. Would you be ok with the man who murdered you going unpunished? Could you look at the body of your dead mother, brother, father, or sister or someone else precious to you who has been defiled in some unforgivable way and then easily say, "Oh, it's ok. I know the man who murdered my loved one is reformed now." Is that going to be satisfying? Are you going to feel right about that? Are you going to feel that justice was done? How are you going to feel about that?

Well others have pretty much stated what I wanted to say in regards to this so let's bring it back to Medaka box. I don't think Zenkichi wanted revenge against Kumagawa and Oudo, his issue with Medaka's way was that she welcomed them with open arms with no catches, so while he didn't want to cause them further harm beyond making sure they didn't do what what they did again, he wasn't particularily happy that Medaka went beyond forgiving them for what they did.

The victims of those that have been wronged don't have to forgive the wrong do'er, just not cause the wrong do'er further harm just to make themselves feel better. It'd be nice to be the bigger person like that but their not morally wrong for doing that especially if the act is particularily heinous. I think Zenkichi's issue is that they got more than they deserved, which isn't wrong just that doing what Medaka did is called being a bigger person, the issue is she gave exactly too shits about the fact that Zenkichi didn't want to forgive them, and just plain disliked them like any normal human. And because Zenkichi followed her around his overall annoyance grew.

If there's any true faults about Medaka's crusade is that she's far too inhuman (hinted alluded and stated far too many times for anyone to have any real reason to argue against) for someone attempting to truly help humanity. You can only do that by understand humanity and you can only really do that by being human and Medaka's about as far from human as you can get outside of Aijimu. Hence why both Medaka and Zenkich are aware of the issue of a person being be too right and why there's a very good chance she'll end up losing the next election. She's sorta lost her way in all this.

[sungreentakeo]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

You throw around the word "happiness" like you could just walk into K-mart and buy it. Achieving genuine happiness is not anything simple for anybody. Even if Medaka forgives someone, it's not like everybody else will. That person, genuinely reformed, will still have to live with the prejudice and scorn of the rest of society. Their past actions are not somehow erased by Medaka's forgiveness. In the Vice President fight of the Student Council Election Battles, Gagamaru directly addresses that Medaka's (or Hinokage's, as her proxy at the time) idea of "reformation" was basically telling Minuses to accept a world of suffering. A complete world of suffering, of losses, frustrations, injustices, rejection, and genuine failure, as a result of embracing a genuine effort to integrate back into society was the equivalent Medaka's salvation. Accepting other people's hatred, in order to someday be accepted yourself. That sort of world of insurmountable difficulties is what Medaka's faith in people encourages and can ask of them.

So somebody received no direct punishment for the sins they committed. That does not change the fact that to be reformed by Medaka means to accept becoming part of the world. And the world at large is fraught with difficulties, rejections, limitations and uncertainties. To commit to finding your own happiness in the midst of that maelstrom, to bare yourself to all the misfortune the world can throw at you, that is the definition of something which takes courage. If somebody truly managed to so easily find happiness in the midst of such a situation it would be a miracle. The knowledge of your own sin is punishment enough. To say that anybody who has genuinely stepped onto the thorny path of repentance is "getting off easy" is highly disingenuous at best.

Ok, I could show how each of the things are misdirections that get away from the essence of what I'm trying to show. Philosophical examples are actually supposed to work by certain rules that illustrate a point. You could make up rules to nullify the conscience angle and the idea other people will punish him. He doesn't have a conscience or he thinks it's more important to move on. He physically moves somewhere where he isn't known and changes his name. He's still a human being though, still savable. And the angle about the world basically being a place that has misfortune in it has nothing to do with becoming a person who has a personality that makes themselves happier. Well, there are misfortunes and fortunes and all sorts of things in the world for everyone normally. That certainly isn't punishment. And Jeffrey Dahmer isn't a minus who draws every misfortune of the world upon him, he was rather skilled at convincing other people he was normal.

Basically, whenever you think there is something that that makes Medaka look bad, you deflect.

I'm trying to illustrate why people would feel dissatisfied with Medaka's type of justice. This is the essence of that. This is the reason why someone would have mixed feelings about what Medaka does, especially with someone who's done something really bad.

That's the core of what Zenkichi was saying to himself after the end of the flask plan arc.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by sungreentakeo

Ok, I could show how each of the things are misdirections that get away from the essence of what I'm trying to show. Philosophical examples are actually supposed to work by certain rules that illustrate a point. You could make up rules to nullify the conscience angle and the idea other people will punish him. He doesn't have a conscience or he thinks it's more important to move on. He physically moves somewhere where he isn't known and changes his name. He's still a human being though, still savable. And the angle about the world basically being a place that has misfortune in it has nothing to do with becoming a person who has a personality that makes themselves happier. Well, there are misfortunes and fortunes and all sorts of things in the world for everyone normally. That certainly isn't punishment. And Jeffrey Dahmer isn't a minus who draws every misfortune of the world upon him, he was rather skilled at convincing other people he was normal.

Basically, whenever you think there is something that that makes Medaka look bad, you deflect.

I'm trying to illustrate why people would feel dissatisfied with Medaka's type of justice. This is the essence of that. This is the reason why someone would have mixed feelings about what Medaka does, especially with someone who's done something really bad.

That's the core of what Zenkichi was saying to himself after the end of the flask plan arc.

This has nothing to do with deflection or Medaka looking bad. You have any number of valid replies from other people addressing the view that it is pointless to take revenge, and even that Zenkichi's dissatisfaction with Medaka has nothing to do with "justice". Your "philosophical example" does not give anybody pause to think, does not present in any logical manner an argument that revenge and punishment are correct. In fact, rather than using logic to try to support your conclusion, all your "philosophical example" boils down to are progressively more outlandish emotional appeals where you try to conjure up more and more terrible offenses on the part of the malefactor.

In the first place you can't take a repenter's conscience out of the equation, because without a conscience it is not possible to repent in the first place. Medaka forgives the opponents she faces when she judges that they are no longer an active harm to people. A person without a conscience, i.e. empathy, i.e. the capacity to understand how their previous actions had caused harm to others, would be unable to show that they had actually repented. Somebody who does not place weight upon their past mistakes cannot be trusted not to repeat that mistake in the future. By definition, you must accept that somebody who has been reformed is someone who has a conscience.

But seriously, and let me echo what other posters have said by now, bring this discussion back to Medaka. These wild scenarios you bring up to illustrate your interpretation of Medaka's "justice" no longer have any reflection on the events in the actual story (Who the hell is Jeffrey Dahmer? :P). How is your example remotely related to the cases of Miyakanoujou or Kumagawa? Where specifically does Zenkichi's dissatisfaction come from in the case of Miyakanoujou--the sin that Zenkichi believes Miyakanoujou should be punished for? Whose pain or hatred was Zenkichi representing? Do you think the pettiness that Zenkichi felt like Miyakanoujou at least deserved a punch in the face actually constitutes any serious opposition to Medaka's "philosophy"?

[sungreentakeo]

Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take

Well others have pretty much stated what I wanted to say in regards to this so let's bring it back to Medaka box. I don't think Zenkichi wanted revenge against Kumagawa and Oudo, his issue with Medaka's way was that she welcomed them with open arms with no catches, so while he didn't want to cause them further harm beyond making sure they didn't do what what they did again, he wasn't particularily happy that Medaka went beyond forgiving them for what they did.

To make it easier to discuss, from Chapter 55-12:

Originally Posted by FromMedakaBoxAfterFlaskArc

Zenkichi: Although she did like she said in destroying the facility, she showed mercy to the big dog of this dungeon. Where on Earth do you find that?

Zenkichi: Then there's Akune-Senpai and Kikaijima who are doing just like me, in fact they're become friends with our former enemies, naze-senpai, koga-senpai, and yukuhashi-senpai. And I bet they all wanted Medaka-chan to sock him (Oudo I'm assuming) once or twice.

Zenkichi: I think Medaka-chan is quite amazing for being able to hold back on that. But if you were to ask "Are you satisfied with that?" I don't think I could truthfully answer you.

Zenkichi: That's why we... Don't let me speak for anyone else, I... feel very mixed about leaving the way we are right now.

Zenkichi: I think someone forgiving someone else, isn't as magnificent thing as it's made out to be.

Zenkichi: Although i must say... If Medaka-chan had used force to correct everything, we wouldn't be able to have everyone walk away like this in a friendly manner.

Zenkichi: A few minutes ago, we were on the verge of a life or death battle, but now it looks like we're regular high school kids on the way home from a trip.

So there are a couple of points here.

1. He thinks they would have liked Oudo to have gotten hit around somewhat.
2. He didn't seem that enamored with the idea of forgiving.
3. He seems a little unnerved that all the enemies and allies are returning so normally from a life or death fight.

I take number one and two to mean that Zenkichi thought that Oudo should have received some sort of retribution for being the big bad; something that made Oudo look like he was defeated. Something that was typical and fitting to the conventional idea of what should be done. He leaves in defeat alone or something, instead of being accepted just like that.

I take number three to mean that he didn't think it ended in a satisfying way. He would have liked everything to end more like you would think a victory would normally end. Where the 'bad guys' go home in defeat and the 'good guys' go home in victory, instead of everyone leaving together in peace.

Something like going home victoriously with your friends only, feeling that you'd accomplished something together instead of (him) standing uncomfortably and annoyed in an elevator with the guy who had tried to kill one of his friends minutes ago.

The victims of those that have been wronged don't have to forgive the wrong do'er, just not cause the wrong do'er further harm just to make themselves feel better. It'd be nice to be the bigger person like that but their not morally wrong for doing that especially if the act is particularily heinous. I think Zenkichi's issue is that they got more than they deserved, which isn't wrong just that doing what Medaka did is called being a bigger person, the issue is she gave exactly too shits about the fact that Zenkichi didn't want to forgive them, and just plain disliked them like any normal human. And because Zenkichi followed her around his overall annoyance grew.

I agree with what you're saying. Zenkichi's concerns would be people getting what you'd normally think they deserve. I would describe it as Medaka being more concerned with being 'right' or what you're calling being the bigger person while Zenkichi is more concerned with being 'fair' which is a conventional way that people think. Basically being fair could be just as positive as it could being negative, but the context here is mostly negative. I think though that type of thinking is something that is driven more by the feelings, which is why I like explaining it in terms of how someone would feel about a situation. It's usually not something that you have to think about. When you do step back from the situation and think about it, you begin to think that the more important thing to do is the 'right' action or the 'correct' action to bring along the best result.

It's a better solution to go home in peace with your enemies than to send them home in defeat. It just doesn't feel right.

If you think of it in terms of the victim not having to forgive the aggressor, let's say they get emotional about it and then the decision they end up making is based on how the victim feels after getting hurt, which is not forgiving. But if you step back from the situation and ask what is the better solution, then usually the better solution is to forgive. When you do forgive people you often end up feeling dissatisfied even if you know it was for the best.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by sungreentakeo

So there are a couple of points here.

1. He thinks they would have liked Oudo to have gotten hit around somewhat.
2. He didn't seem that enamored with the idea of forgiving.
3. He seems a little unnerved that all the enemies and allies are returning so normally from a life or death fight.

Since you've brought it up, this interpretation is wrong in the first place.

Zenkichi: Although I must say... If Medaka-chan had used force to correct everything, we wouldn't be able to have everyone walk away like this in a friendly manner.

In this line, Zenkichi is saying that it's a good thing that Medaka didn't use force, because as a result everyone was able to walk away in a friendly manner. Zenkichi talks about how even himself, Akune, and Kikaijima have become friends with (various members of) their former enemies. If Medaka had flat out pulverized Miyakanojou, leaving together with a relaxed atmosphere like that would not have been possible. It's not like Miyakanojou being the "big bad" would've erased the bonds between him and the rest of the abnormals. In particular the relationship of Yuzuhashi, the "former enemy" whom Kikaijima befriended, with Miyakanoujou would have made such a resolution impossible.

The only point you have right is that Zenkichi thought that Miyakanojou should've been knocked around a bit. The rest of it is Zenkichi coming around to the fact that there were some benefits to Medaka forgiving him.

[kenjtr]

I think zenkichi is a realist while medaka thinks like a six year old ( cause childs love you unconditionaly ) , why do you think medaka fight miyakanojou ? ; yes medakas real objective was to stop flask plan but in the end she didnt do anything and left things as they are , zenkichi was unsatisfied cause it was a fruitless fight and real objective stop the flask plan was forgotten by everyone .

But real issue abaut zenkichi is none of these lets just look at all these arcs ;
1- normals become zenkichis friends because they freak out from medaka
2- then defeated specials become zenkichis friend
3- then abnormals become zenkichis friend
4- then minuses become zenkichis friend
5- last attemp was to make not equals zenkichis friends but that failed also zenkichis friendship with kumagawa also become a little weak
6- medaka beat zenkichi and everyone become his friends except naked apron alliance .

Dont get me wrong but to me it seems like medaka wants to make everyone zenkichis fiend so dont get me wrong but when zenkichi become president with 100 percent wote wont that be like medaka solved zenkichis puzzle with no mistake ( like in their childhood ) . No matter how i look if zenkichi wins with 100 percent thats medakas win cause she showed him the way to make friends with everyone .

Can we call this medakas weird love for zenkichi or without knowing medaka played shiranuis hand ? To me it also looks like shiranui planned things to be like this from the beginning but i just cant understand her objective !

[sungreentakeo]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

This has nothing to do with deflection or Medaka looking bad. You have any number of valid replies from other people addressing the view that it is pointless to take revenge, and even that Zenkichi's dissatisfaction with Medaka has nothing to do with "justice".

When I said, "Would you have felt justice was done?" I was talking about justice in the emotional sense.. There are plenty of situations where someone would call eye for an eye revenge justice. I'm not saying I think that's the best justice. It's a 'primitive' justice. It's the wired social reactions we have in us. You feel wronged, so you feel you have to do something about it. Once you've gotten some sort of validation, then you have had justice for yourself or whomever was wronged and you stop feeling that need to do something.

The definition of justice that you're talking about is a utilitarian ethic where the reformed serial killer might cure cancer and although all those people are dead, you can't bring them back so that doesn't really matter. Therefore, the best thing to do is maximize the value you can produce in the situation.

But when you go back to the emotional side, it seems unfair. Look at all these people suffering! Your heart reaches out to them. You feel for the victims and you put them above the reformed serial killer because you emphasize with the victim's plight. Not only that, the serial killer hurt the victims in the first place. Hurting the reformed serial killer may not make the world a better place, but it would satisfy the feelings of the people who were harmed irrevocably by him.

My example wasn't meant to say that the right decision is kill or punish the reformed serial killer. It was to create a situation where doing the action best for the future leaves you feeling dissatisfied. The answer is not in the answer. The answer is what the question shows you; that doing the 'right' thing can be emotionally disturbing or even heartless.

Your "philosophical example" does not give anybody pause to think, does not present in any logical manner an argument that revenge and punishment are correct. In fact, rather than using logic to try to support your conclusion, all your "philosophical example" boils down to are progressively more outlandish emotional appeals where you try to conjure up more and more terrible offenses on the part of the malefactor.

I'm not proving that revenge or punishment are correct. I intentionally stated in one of my earlier posts that I wasn't taking a side. And they aren't outlandish emotional appeals; they're the point. The contrast is between the practicality and emotions. The contrast between empathy and the best decision.

In the first place you can't take a repenter's conscience out of the equation, because without a conscience it is not possible to repent in the first place. Medaka forgives the opponents she faces when she judges that they are no longer an active harm to people. A person without a conscience, i.e. empathy, i.e. the capacity to understand how their previous actions had caused harm to others, would be unable to show that they had actually repented. Somebody who does not place weight upon their past mistakes cannot be trusted not to repeat that mistake in the future. By definition, you must accept that somebody who has been reformed is someone who has a conscience.

A conscience drives you to repent, if you don't have a conscience you don't have to repent. You're putting the cart before the horse. They don't have to suffer because they don't have a conscience. You don't have to repent or have a conscience in order to be happy. You can just let go of something.

You also don't need a conscience or empathy to not be harmful to people. If Medaka accepts all humans, she has to accept psychopaths too. They can't ever have a conscience (I hope I haven't mixed this up with sociopath). Just because someone doesn't have emotions or feelings for other people and doesn't think the same way they do doesn't mean that they have to be harmful to other people. It doesn't even mean that can't be helpful to other people. It just means they won't be bothered by the things they have done and they'll have to actually spent more time thinking about what's right or wrong instead of feeling it.

But seriously, and let me echo what other posters have said by now, bring this discussion back to Medaka. These wild scenarios you bring up to illustrate your interpretation of Medaka's "justice" no longer have any reflection on the events in the actual story (Who the hell is Jeffrey Dahmer? :P).

He was a famous serial killer.

How is your example remotely related to the cases of Miyakanoujou or Kumagawa?

Because what happened after the flask plan was right, but not 'fair'. In Miyakanoujou's case, he didn't leave in shame and get punished for being the big bad. He left in peaceful joint friendship with everyone who had come up there. That was the best solution, but if you think about it you would feel dissatisfied if your life had been on the line in that situation. The emotional undercurrent of the situation would have wanted there to be some sort of punishment for the bad guy. He hurt people and therefore he got his 'medicine'. Something that seems emotionally fitting, like when the villain that's been built up to be hated gets his just desserts instead of travelling home peacefully with the heroes.

As for Kumagawa, here's a good example that doesn't have anything to do with 'punishment'. Kumagawa got the vice president seat. When that happened, everyone was surprised and was concerned about how Zenkichi would feel about that. After all, they all felt that wasn't fair to him. Considering Medaka's goals though, Kumagawa was a far better candidate for that position than Zenkichi. That was the right thing to do; but it lacks emotional satisfaction.

Where specifically does Zenkichi's dissatisfaction come from in the case of Miyakanoujou--the sin that Zenkichi believes Miyakanoujou should be punished for? Whose pain or hatred was Zenkichi representing? Do you think the pettiness that Zenkichi felt like Miyakanoujou at least deserved a punch in the face actually constitutes any serious opposition to Medaka's "philosophy"?

I'm not saying that Medaka's philosophy is wrong. I'm picking apart why it's 'too right'. My example wasn't even really an opposition to Medaka's philosophy. If you want to make everyone in the world happy, you can't even hold a grudge against the bad guys. This is the right thing to do, but it's emotionally unsatisfying for the villains to not receive their just desserts. If you could reform everyone, it would make sense to simply forgive people no matter what horrible things no matter they've done in the past, even if they've done horrible things that are irrevocable. But there are scenarios where being too right becomes disturbing. Like when you emphasize with the victims of a crime that can't be fixed or healed, and the criminal is forgiven for any reason. The empathy for the victims has nothing to do with what's right in the sense of being correct. It can even go against doing the correct thing.

[sungreentakeo]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

In this line, Zenkichi is saying that it's a good thing that Medaka didn't use force,
because as a result everyone was able to walk away in a friendly manner.

Yeah, he's noticing and even agreeing that what she did was the correct thing to do. I already thought that Zenkichi knew that what Medaka did was the correct action. Maybe I'm taking that for granted in my explanations.

Zenkichi talks about how even himself, Akune, and Kikaijima have become friends with (various members of) their former enemies. If Medaka had flat out pulverized Miyakanojou, leaving together with a relaxed atmosphere like that would not have been possible.

You're picking out the places where he explains that where Zenkichi thinks what Medaka did was for the best. And that's true. It just wasn't what I was interested in. After all, this is simple. He mentions that she's right all the time. The interesting cases are where you figure out what's different from usual.

It's not like Miyakanojou being the "big bad" would've erased the bonds between him and the rest of the abnormals. In particular the relationship of Yuzuhashi, the "former enemy" whom Kikaijima befriended, with Miyakanoujou would have made such a resolution impossible.

That's also true.

The only point you have right is that Zenkichi thought that Miyakanojou should've been knocked around a bit. The rest of it is Zenkichi coming around to the fact that there were some benefits to Medaka forgiving him.

It's deeper than that. It didn't feel to him that they just won a high tension battle. It didn't feel right to him to be in the same elevator with the guy that fought Medaka a couple of minutes ago. He doesn't feel it was fair or natural for all of that animosity to be dropped so easily and quickly. You know when you have an argument and you get some time and space away from the person you were arguing with so you can both settle down? There was no breather here. Medaka forgave everything, put it out of her mind and stopped being concerned about those events the moment everything was done. But everything that happened was still meaningful to Zenkichi. It was probably still bothering everyone but Medaka. You'll also notice that it didn't occur to Medaka that everyone else would feel that way and do something about that.

They walked up to the top floor of the castle and took on the big bad or the evil head wizard or whatever cliche ultimate source of villainy you choose, and then the fight ended when last boss in charge of all the trouble said, "I'm sorry. Forgive me." Normally the last boss gets his butt kicked because he's the person responsible for the whole mess. You could even say he deserved to get his butt kicked more than anybody else since he's the leader of all the bad guys.

Then everyone, friends and enemies just a moment ago, left together like they were coming home from a field trip instead of violently fighting each other just 10 minutes ago. Normally you'd need a little time and space before things would go back to normal. If you think about it, it's easy to see how unusual and odd the situation is.

Yeah, Zenkichi is coming to terms with Medaka's correct solution. But he's also explaining why and what bothers him in the first place..

[kenjtr]

i think in the end zenkichi is a men of justice but medaka is an idealist and thats where they conflict , zenkichi likes results of medakas archivements but at the same time he knows thats unfair .

Also zenkichi is person who obeys the rules of society while medaka brokes them and also zenkichi mentioned before shiranui changes the rules , i think if same thing happened with medaka happened with shiranui he would say he love her too .

Lets also not forget unlike justice love doesnt have to win , which means for me ; zenkichi puts justice and fairness over love even when he was loosing akune in judo match he didnt cheated , i still wonder why did medaka cheered zenkchi there . she could have just zenkichi go and go with akune why did she insisted on zenkichi .

[MD84]

Zenkichi isn't an idealist, in the sense that ideals don't matter to him as much as people. He doesn't have some lofty goal to make everybody happy -- he just wants to "defeat" Medaka by getting her to fall for him and winning over the school. Which doesn't mean he won't help people -- he's still willing to help others achieve happiness because he's a friendly guy. He's no hero of justice or anything, and there's really nothing wrong with that.

I'm still waiting for all of this to go horribly wrong thanks to Ajimu. She's the closest thing the series has to an actually evil person ever since Kumagawa and Class Minus 13 had the psychosis (mostly) beaten out of them by Medaka and company. Akune was right to be wary of this new turn of events.

[Soji]

I think the big difference between Medaka and Zen it can be summarized this way.....Medaka wants to make everybody happy that they want it or no.Zen wantsonly make to happy who wishes it for(like he said to his mother during the fight against Mukea and Kumagawa).besides unlike Medaka Zen can understand people and be their friend.

[Tenchi Hou Take]

Originally Posted by sungreentakeo

Yeah, he's noticing and even agreeing that what she did was the correct thing to do. I already thought that Zenkichi knew that what Medaka did was the correct action. Maybe I'm taking that for granted in my explanations.


You're picking out the places where he explains that where Zenkichi thinks what Medaka did was for the best. And that's true. It just wasn't what I was interested in. After all, this is simple. He mentions that she's right all the time. The interesting cases are where you figure out what's different from usual.


That's also true.



It's deeper than that. It didn't feel to him that they just won a high tension battle. It didn't feel right to him to be in the same elevator with the guy that fought Medaka a couple of minutes ago. He doesn't feel it was fair or natural for all of that animosity to be dropped so easily and quickly. You know when you have an argument and you get some time and space away from the person you were arguing with so you can both settle down? There was no breather here. Medaka forgave everything, put it out of her mind and stopped being concerned about those events the moment everything was done. But everything that happened was still meaningful to Zenkichi. It was probably still bothering everyone but Medaka. You'll also notice that it didn't occur to Medaka that everyone else would feel that way and do something about that.

They walked up to the top floor of the castle and took on the big bad or the evil head wizard or whatever cliche ultimate source of villainy you choose, and then the fight ended when last boss in charge of all the trouble said, "I'm sorry. Forgive me." Normally the last boss gets his butt kicked because he's the person responsible for the whole mess. You could even say he deserved to get his butt kicked more than anybody else since he's the leader of all the bad guys.

Then everyone, friends and enemies just a moment ago, left together like they were coming home from a field trip instead of violently fighting each other just 10 minutes ago. Normally you'd need a little time and space before things would go back to normal. If you think about it, it's easy to see how unusual and odd the situation is.

Yeah, Zenkichi is coming to terms with Medaka's correct solution. But he's also explaining why and what bothers him in the first place..

Yup hence why I said Zenkichi's issue is that he doesn't forgive people as quickly as Medaka does, but the problem is Medaka doesn't give too shits about that opinion meaning unless Medaka starts respecting him/ giving a damn about his opinion his uneasiness will always remain.

Which is pretty much why Zenkichi feels to the need to perform a coup d'etat since unless he's on an equal/higher level than Medaka in regard to to respect within the relationship it really won't work. Neither are really wrong in their beliefs it's just simply like Aijimu stated, Zenkichi was simply never meant to be her subordinate or at least one of his curren position.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by sungreentakeo

When I said, "Would you have felt justice was done?" I was talking about justice in the emotional sense.. There are plenty of situations where someone would call eye for an eye revenge justice. I'm not saying I think that's the best justice. It's a 'primitive' justice. It's the wired social reactions we have in us. You feel wronged, so you feel you have to do something about it. Once you've gotten some sort of validation, then you have had justice for yourself or whomever was wronged and you stop feeling that need to do something.

There is no such thing as real emotional satisfaction from revenge. If a killer is genuinely reformed, such that his remorse and desire to make amends can clearly be seen by the victims, there is no way even the victims could obtain any genuine happiness by punishing him out of sheer vindictiveness.

The definition of justice that you're talking about is a utilitarian ethic where the reformed serial killer might cure cancer and although all those people are dead, you can't bring them back so that doesn't really matter. Therefore, the best thing to do is maximize the value you can produce in the situation.

The reason I consider Medaka correct has nothing to do with utilitarianism. It's that hatred in the first place is a useless emotion that harms the subject as much as the object of the hatred. The desire to inflict pain onto others is a terrible emotion that in itself limits a person's ability to achieve happiness. Humans having empathy, being consumed by the need to bring harm to others is equivalent to being consumed by the need to bring harm to oneself.

But when you go back to the emotional side, it seems unfair. Look at all these people suffering! Your heart reaches out to them. You feel for the victims and you put them above the reformed serial killer because you emphasize with the victim's plight. Not only that, the serial killer hurt the victims in the first place. Hurting the reformed serial killer may not make the world a better place, but it would satisfy the feelings of the people who were harmed irrevocably by him.

There is nothing unfair about Medaka's justice in the emotional sense. If there are victims who are suffering, Medaka's justice is among the very first that would reach out to them. If people feel their happiness has been irrevocably taken away from them, bringing them hope and helping them move on in life would be one of Medaka's core missions by extension of her dream to "help everybody". Medaka's mission is to make everybody happy; it is blatantly obvious that that should include the victims.

The entire basis of your emotional appeals up to now has been "look, the offender is happy, but the victims are not". That's bullshit. Medaka's "justice" is the desire to make everybody happy. That means: yes, the offenders are happy, but the victims are happy too.

[DeotoxSlayer]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

There is no such thing as real emotional satisfaction from revenge. If a killer is genuinely reformed, such that his remorse and desire to make amends can clearly be seen by the victims, there is no way even the victims could obtain any genuine happiness by punishing him out of sheer vindictiveness.

I generally just read this thread, because I don't care for the idea of getting into circular debates, but could you please stop assuming shit like this? The fact that you can just outright state that like it's a hard fact just shows that you have no experiences with matters like that, and the assumptions your making are really annoying. You can't just say that people should feel a certain way because your opinion on the matter is the best, or the most correct that's bigotry. A show of genuine remorse does not change what's already happened, and for a person to say that everything's alright just because they feel sorry, and that the victims should recognize that fact is just idiotic.

[MD84]

People in the Medaka Box universe don't seem to be a very vindictive bunch. If Zenkichi can forgive Kumagawa blinding him, and if Kumagawa can forgive Zenkichi trying to kill him (both in the same fight), anything goes I guess.

In a more realistic setting, nearly the entire cast would be suspended or sent to juvie at least for everything they've done. I'm not talking about forgiveness or revenge, just legality. But Medaka Box has never been the least bit realistic.

The whole thing just seems to parody the typical Shounen heroes' willingness to forgive former enemies after they beat the crap out of them.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by DeotoxSlayer

I generally just read this thread, because I don't care for the idea of getting into circular debates, but could you please stop assuming shit like this? The fact that you can just outright state that like it's a hard fact just shows that you have no experiences with matters like that, and the assumptions your making are really annoying. You can't just say that people should feel a certain way because your opinion on the matter is the best, or the most correct that's bigotry. A show of genuine remorse does not change what's already happened, and for a person to say that everything's alright just because they feel sorry, and that the victims should recognize that fact is just idiotic.

I'm not saying the victims "should" recognize anything. I'm saying if, by chance, the victim of a murderer or rapist or cannibal or whatever were given the chance to directly take revenge for the loss they have suffered, against an offender who is genuinely sorry, genuinely reformed, and willing to do whatever it takes to make amends for their actions--if that victim went through with it, there's no way they could be happy. A victim has the right to want revenge. That's natural, that's the immediate emotional reaction. But when it comes right down to it, if they go, face to face, with the reformed person whom they wish to take all of their pain out on, and realize that that person is just a human just like them, it will be impossible for them to gain any satisfaction out of it.

The basis for concepts and emotions like "revenge" is "them vs. us", "good guys vs. bad guys", the evil "filth" against the "innocent". For such feelings to work, one has to wilfully blind themselves from the fact that yes, the other party is human. If you come face to face with someone who is genuinely vulnerable, lost, weakened by the weight of their sin and awaiting your judgement, you cannot maintain that facade any longer. Humans wish there were really such a thing as "good" and "evil" in this world, because then they could just fall into their base instincts and antagonism and actually be justified. But upon closer inspection, any individual with a remote sense of basic empathy will be forced to realize that that is simply impossible.

[DawnEmperor]

^ Shouldn't the person dictate their own sense of happiness? Maybe it's just my belief, but happiness all the time isn't necessarily the best either. It's that common endpoint that people dictate as a goal, but to say other emotions are useless shuts out a lot of other experiences. There are so many emotions and nuances to life.

And why shouldn't we empathize with non-human organisms?

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by DawnEmperor

^ Shouldn't the person dictate their own sense of happiness? Maybe it's just my belief, but happiness all the time isn't necessarily the best either. It's that common endpoint that people dictate as a goal, but to say other emotions are useless shuts out a lot of other experiences. There are so many emotions and nuances to life.

And why shouldn't we empathize with non-human organisms?

Hatred happens to humans anyway, whether it's useless or not. It's a natural reaction, so acknowledging it's uselessness doesn't preclude people ever experiencing it. You could say that the process of learning to overcome hatred itself is one of the grand steps in each person's path towards human growth and maturity. I deflect any 'omg stop being bigoted and forcing your opinion of what's right' shitstorms towards a general overview of the teachings of Buddhism, lol.

And yeah, of course it's also perfectly reasonable to empathize with non-human organisms.