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AuraTwilight · 2012-02-14, 02:04

You're kind of not looking under the surface. Beatrice is the personality representing his relationship with Yasu (which is why he treats her as real and marries her and such), BUT he does understand her true nature. However, Yasu hates herself, thinks her true self is ugly, shabby, disgusting, and incapable of love, and built Beatrice to be something to receive Battler's love.

It is enough, for her, that Battler understands her true form, but that doesn't mean she wants to be 'Yasu Ushiromiya'. Battler is respecting her wishes and trying to treat her with respect and dignity by saying "Yes, you're the witch, Beatrice, and I love you."

Prototype909 · 2012-02-14, 02:42

I see,

Then my error then was one of not understanding both perspectives in the relationship. Considering it in that way, it makes perfect sense given Yasu's furniture complex that she would consider herself so hideous that she wouldn't even want to be represented as "herself", especially given the fact that Beatrice and Shannon already existed as a method of escapism from that sort of thing anyways.

Which makes the situation not -

Yasu loves Battler, Battler loves Beatrice (Aspect of Yasu), Battler doesn't give a fuck about Yasu the person

But rather

Part of Yasu (Or Yasu herself, whatever you want to argue) loves Battler, Battler loves Beatrice (Beatrice = his relationship with Yasu), Battler understands the intent behind Beatrice as a concept/personality and rather than force Yasu to be represented by her actual self (Which she despises), he lets her continue to "exist"/be represented as Beatrice (Which she crafted as the ideal receptacle for his affection).

I'm pretty sure that sums up what you're saying albeit in way more words than you used to describe it, unless I'm just going completely off base again.

jjblue1 · 2012-02-14, 13:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prototype909

Now if Beatrice is some kind of closet for Yasu (Stores her dreams and things she can't deal with as Shannon in here, example magic and love for Battler), then why does it seem like Battler treats Beatrice as if she was actually Yasu?

Beato is a big part of Yasuda, the one that represent all the things she wanted but couldn't get (being a witch, being blonde and busty, loving Battler, having people who cared for her, having a certain freedom and control over her life, not being clumsy, being confident). However Shannon and Kanon are too part of what Yasuda is (for example a side of Yasuda had wished to be a model servant and held Geoge dear for example and might have dreamt marrying him.)

In the end in EP 6 Battler tried to fulfill each of Yasuda's wishes... at least in the meta/magic world because in real life Yasuda should have done a choice about what she wanted (think at EP 6 and at how it's said that only the winner couple survive while Kanon and Beato are erased...).[/QUOTE]

Prototype909 · 2012-02-14, 14:02

I thought the point about Kanon and Beato disappearing was in order to show that with the absence of Battler prior to 1986, Shannon would have been the soul who was completed. Thus, Battler's "disappearance" at that point serves as almost two plot points.

1) BATTLER being trapped due to his logic error removes him from the love duel
2) It takes two people to create a universe, and with Battler having left the Beatrice will always be alone (Thus, Kanon and Shannon are the only real competitors for a personality as they have their second person)

My argument is basically

Kanon existed as nothing more than an extension of Shannon, therefore his relationship was the most shallow or had the least importance tied to it. Battler's absence prior to 1986 meant that Shannon would be the "winner" as Beatrice's love for Battler existed as nothing more than a pipe dream since the person she loved would never come back in Yasu's eyes.

However, as Battler did end up coming back which "invalidated" the love duel's result. Because Kanon and Shannon always "die" over the course of the games in 1-4, while Beatrice is always left alive you could construe this to say that when Battler is present, Beatrice will always win the love duel. Though in Battler's absence, Shannon will be the victor.

jjblue1 · 2012-02-14, 14:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prototype909

I thought the point about Kanon and Beato disappearing was in order to show that with the absence of Battler prior to 1986, Shannon would have been the soul who was completed.

That's part of it. In the real world Beato, Shannon and Kanon can't have a separate life and therefore love their loved ones so in the real world Yasuda was forced to make a choice between the three of them.
Let's assume in the beginning they all had a chance.

Battler however leaves Rokkenjima and for all Yasuda knew he might never come back. She's left hoping he'll do, same as Beato hopes he'll get free from the closed room, but Beato is out of the competition and, at the same way, likely Yasuda felt as her chances to pair up with Battler were near zero.

She's left chosing between George or Jessica. For assorted reasons she chooses George, making Kanon the loser in the fight.

As she technically had done a choice (and EP 7 seemed to imply it was done slightly prior to Battler's return in Prime) Beato and Kanon has no chance to see their love fulfilled and has to be erased.

Somehow however Beato doesn't let go and 'fight' to get Battler back.

It's possible in Prime this means although she technically had made a choice, in truth she was still unable to let go on Battler (the mystery game)... though guessing exactly what happened in Prime is a bit too hard.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prototype909

Kanon existed as nothing more than an extension of Shannon, therefore his relationship was the most shallow or had the least importance tied to it. Battler's absence prior to 1986 meant that Shannon would be the "winner" as Beatrice's love for Battler existed as nothing more than a pipe dream since the person she loved would never come back in Yasu's eyes.

However, as Battler did end up coming back which "invalidated" the love duel's result. Because Kanon and Shannon always "die" over the course of the games in 1-4, while Beatrice is always left alive you could construe this to say that when Battler is present, Beatrice will always win the love duel. Though in Battler's absence, Shannon will be the victor.

Yes, that's another way to see it.

GreyZone · 2012-02-28, 15:59

Well i was thinking back again... and remembered the EP7 tea party... any ideas what happened to Battler? He left the guest house for the chapel and..... WHAT? "Disappeared by magic"? Or was shot by Rudolph/Eva? Or got lost and went off somewhere?

I usually am optimistic about umineko... but the only thing I can call this is "PLOT HOLE"...

Or did i miss something?

AuraTwilight · 2012-02-28, 16:13

The fact that he's unaccounted for is a plot point, not a plot hole. Specifically, that Eva doesn't know what happened to him, and his fate is unaccounted for.

GreyZone · 2012-02-28, 16:22

Hmm yes. I also think that in the book of one truth, Battler's surviving is not included and that the EP7TP can be used to make that point, however person cannot just disappear without a reason, besides "Beatrice used magic uuuh ----"! of course... or else that Eva/Rudolph killed him.

OR he just hid in a bush and watched what happened, because he was coming, when Eva was dueling Rudolph and didn't know how to react.

AuraTwilight · 2012-02-28, 16:31

He didn't disappear without reason, the narrative just doesn't cover what happened to him, just like we don't see the exact gruesome details of how Kyrie killed Maria and the servants. Just because we're not shown it doesn't mean the data doesn't exist.

GreyZone · 2012-02-28, 16:43

However there is a difference... we can be sure that every place, Rudolph and Kyrie went to where annihilated by them (Not being surprised about "Shannon's and Kanon's disappearance" is another matter).

But we know exactly that Battler was heading to Rudolph and there was a chance, that Battler would not be killed, while it is very unlikly, that they let anyone else live.

What i am trying to say is: Battler's status is a catbox in that tea party, while everyone else beside Eva is surely dead.

AuraTwilight · 2012-02-28, 17:55

You're right, and that's intentional. We don't know what happens to Battler. That's supposed to be a warning flag.

RandomAvatarFan · 2012-03-05, 11:32

Quick question, once Yasu decides to "become Beatrice" and Shannon is left alone... was that Shannon talking about reading mystery novels?

AuraTwilight · 2012-03-05, 14:35

It was Yasu, I think.

RandomAvatarFan · 2012-03-05, 19:34

Hmm... maybe it was Shannon, because later on that's what she said sparked her relationship with George.

What I don't understand is how Yasutrice "erased" his/her existence. If Yasu was indeed the child of Beatrice II and Kinzo that Genji pushed to be moved into the mansion, how was it that people "forgot"? I'll keep reading though, I feel like it's about the be revealed soon...

This chapter is really neat. Different, but fun. The "heart" that was spoken about so much throughout the story is revealed. "Without love, it cannot be seen" which was repeated endlessly, and the theme of EP6... well it's like "here's the love in it's true form." The setup of the game is interesting too. All the characters only within the chapel (which is also the place where it was speculated Kinzo would have married Beatrice if he could...) and the piece from "the larger catbox" - Lion....this game feels something more than a different perspective... it's like you're looking at the chessboard flipped around staring at it from the very top.

AuraTwilight · 2012-03-05, 22:31

Quote:

Hmm... maybe it was Shannon, because later on that's what she said sparked her relationship with George.

Bear in mind that they're the same person, so they have the same memories.

Quote:

What I don't understand is how Yasutrice "erased" his/her existence. If Yasu was indeed the child of Beatrice II and Kinzo that Genji pushed to be moved into the mansion, how was it that people "forgot"? I'll keep reading though, I feel like it's about the be revealed soon...

She didn't. Most likely, Yasu's full legal name is Sayo Yasuda. 'Yasu' is the mean nickname she was given, and Shannon is her servant name.

And Shannon is the perfect, ideal servant, and her 'best' friend. Basically, she just decided to fully be Shannon.

RandomAvatarFan · 2012-03-06, 21:49

I wasn't quite sure what was happening, but once Kanon was born and Beatrice took "her love" it began to make more sense.

It's funny, because I disregarded "Pony Theory" thinking that there wasn't anyone in the cast Yandere enough. I mean I thought about it, but then I'm like "is that really enough?" But I'm beginning to understand more about the epitaph and the ceremony. Man it's so cool that all the puzzle pieces Ryukishi had set out for us are now being solved. I mean, I wasn't able to come up with a final answer, like Yasu and Gaap's bet, but I did have fun trying to work things out. And there's still more to work out!

alarmadadna hadi · 2012-03-07, 11:13

Quote:

I wasn't quite sure what was happening, but once Kanon was born and Beatrice took "her love" it began to make more sense.

That seed of love might be as close we ever get to the real yasu, given that she could only pass it around and not destroy it implies its rooted more deeply in her psyche.

RandomAvatarFan · 2012-03-08, 19:32

The tea party surely did play with me, but I should have suspected that Bern wouldn't have let the chapter end the way it did, but seriously: "This is the Truth-"...I'm not sure if that red can be trusted at face value. It does however make a nice mush of the question arcs. The parents going out to the chapel like they did in EP2, Eva making her way to Kuwadorian to survive like in EP3, and calling the children out to the tests like in EP4. Still... hearing things like "Ange is nothing more than a tool to keep Rudolf at my side."

As for Will and Clair's battle, there actually is a lot in what Clair says. "Earth to Earth. Illusions to Illusions." It's not direct, but a lot of it is fairly easy to see past. Some things I'm not sure of... maybe if I take a page out of Featherine's book and reread the stories before going onto Twilight...

unsuspectingvisitor · 2012-03-18, 02:45

I just reread ep7 tea party and i found something interesting. I found a possibility that this tea party and the story about Battler escaping with Beatrice on a boat in Ep8 was somehow connected.

But i am not entirely sure about this so I'll ask you guys this question first.

Are those two stories really connected ? Was his story a continuation of what happened after the killing in "that tea party"?

GreyZone · 2012-03-18, 04:10

Unless Kyrie missed "Beatrice" in the gold room when she shot her.... no

2012-02-14, 02:04	Link #3621
AuraTwilight The True Culprit Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: The Golden Land	You're kind of not looking under the surface. Beatrice is the personality representing his relationship with Yasu (which is why he treats her as real and marries her and such), BUT he does understand her true nature. However, Yasu hates herself, thinks her true self is ugly, shabby, disgusting, and incapable of love, and built Beatrice to be something to receive Battler's love. It is enough, for her, that Battler understands her true form, but that doesn't mean she wants to be 'Yasu Ushiromiya'. Battler is respecting her wishes and trying to treat her with respect and dignity by saying "Yes, you're the witch, Beatrice, and I love you." __________________ When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531

2012-02-28, 16:13	Link #3627
AuraTwilight The True Culprit Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: The Golden Land	The fact that he's unaccounted for is a plot point, not a plot hole. Specifically, that Eva doesn't know what happened to him, and his fate is unaccounted for. __________________ When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531

2012-02-28, 16:31	Link #3629
AuraTwilight The True Culprit Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: The Golden Land	He didn't disappear without reason, the narrative just doesn't cover what happened to him, just like we don't see the exact gruesome details of how Kyrie killed Maria and the servants. Just because we're not shown it doesn't mean the data doesn't exist. __________________ When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531

2012-02-28, 17:55	Link #3631
AuraTwilight The True Culprit Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: The Golden Land	You're right, and that's intentional. We don't know what happens to Battler. That's supposed to be a warning flag. __________________ When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531

2012-03-05, 11:32	Link #3632
RandomAvatarFan Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2011	Quick question, once Yasu decides to "become Beatrice" and Shannon is left alone... was that Shannon talking about reading mystery novels? __________________ Without love this picture cannot be seen.

2012-02-14, 02:42	Link #3622
Prototype909 Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2012	I see, Then my error then was one of not understanding both perspectives in the relationship. Considering it in that way, it makes perfect sense given Yasu's furniture complex that she would consider herself so hideous that she wouldn't even want to be represented as "herself", especially given the fact that Beatrice and Shannon already existed as a method of escapism from that sort of thing anyways. Which makes the situation not - Yasu loves Battler, Battler loves Beatrice (Aspect of Yasu), Battler doesn't give a fuck about Yasu the person But rather Part of Yasu (Or Yasu herself, whatever you want to argue) loves Battler, Battler loves Beatrice (Beatrice = his relationship with Yasu), Battler understands the intent behind Beatrice as a concept/personality and rather than force Yasu to be represented by her actual self (Which she despises), he lets her continue to "exist"/be represented as Beatrice (Which she crafted as the ideal receptacle for his affection). I'm pretty sure that sums up what you're saying albeit in way more words than you used to describe it, unless I'm just going completely off base again.

2012-02-14, 14:02	Link #3624
Prototype909 Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2012	I thought the point about Kanon and Beato disappearing was in order to show that with the absence of Battler prior to 1986, Shannon would have been the soul who was completed. Thus, Battler's "disappearance" at that point serves as almost two plot points. 1) BATTLER being trapped due to his logic error removes him from the love duel 2) It takes two people to create a universe, and with Battler having left the Beatrice will always be alone (Thus, Kanon and Shannon are the only real competitors for a personality as they have their second person) My argument is basically Kanon existed as nothing more than an extension of Shannon, therefore his relationship was the most shallow or had the least importance tied to it. Battler's absence prior to 1986 meant that Shannon would be the "winner" as Beatrice's love for Battler existed as nothing more than a pipe dream since the person she loved would never come back in Yasu's eyes. However, as Battler did end up coming back which "invalidated" the love duel's result. Because Kanon and Shannon always "die" over the course of the games in 1-4, while Beatrice is always left alive you could construe this to say that when Battler is present, Beatrice will always win the love duel. Though in Battler's absence, Shannon will be the victor.

2012-02-28, 15:59	Link #3626
GreyZone "Senior" "Member" Join Date: Jan 2012	Well i was thinking back again... and remembered the EP7 tea party... any ideas what happened to Battler? He left the guest house for the chapel and..... WHAT? "Disappeared by magic"? Or was shot by Rudolph/Eva? Or got lost and went off somewhere? I usually am optimistic about umineko... but the only thing I can call this is "PLOT HOLE"... Or did i miss something?

2012-02-28, 16:22	Link #3628
GreyZone "Senior" "Member" Join Date: Jan 2012	Hmm yes. I also think that in the book of one truth, Battler's surviving is not included and that the EP7TP can be used to make that point, however person cannot just disappear without a reason, besides "Beatrice used magic uuuh ----"! of course... or else that Eva/Rudolph killed him. OR he just hid in a bush and watched what happened, because he was coming, when Eva was dueling Rudolph and didn't know how to react.

2012-02-28, 16:43	Link #3630
GreyZone "Senior" "Member" Join Date: Jan 2012	However there is a difference... we can be sure that every place, Rudolph and Kyrie went to where annihilated by them (Not being surprised about "Shannon's and Kanon's disappearance" is another matter). But we know exactly that Battler was heading to Rudolph and there was a chance, that Battler would not be killed, while it is very unlikly, that they let anyone else live. What i am trying to say is: Battler's status is a catbox in that tea party, while everyone else beside Eva is surely dead.

2012-03-05, 14:35	Link #3633
AuraTwilight The True Culprit Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: The Golden Land	It was Yasu, I think. __________________ When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531

2012-03-05, 19:34	Link #3634
RandomAvatarFan Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2011	Hmm... maybe it was Shannon, because later on that's what she said sparked her relationship with George. What I don't understand is how Yasutrice "erased" his/her existence. If Yasu was indeed the child of Beatrice II and Kinzo that Genji pushed to be moved into the mansion, how was it that people "forgot"? I'll keep reading though, I feel like it's about the be revealed soon... This chapter is really neat. Different, but fun. The "heart" that was spoken about so much throughout the story is revealed. "Without love, it cannot be seen" which was repeated endlessly, and the theme of EP6... well it's like "here's the love in it's true form." The setup of the game is interesting too. All the characters only within the chapel (which is also the place where it was speculated Kinzo would have married Beatrice if he could...) and the piece from "the larger catbox" - Lion....this game feels something more than a different perspective... it's like you're looking at the chessboard flipped around staring at it from the very top. __________________ Without love this picture cannot be seen.

2012-03-06, 21:49	Link #3636
RandomAvatarFan Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2011	I wasn't quite sure what was happening, but once Kanon was born and Beatrice took "her love" it began to make more sense. It's funny, because I disregarded "Pony Theory" thinking that there wasn't anyone in the cast Yandere enough. I mean I thought about it, but then I'm like "is that really enough?" But I'm beginning to understand more about the epitaph and the ceremony. Man it's so cool that all the puzzle pieces Ryukishi had set out for us are now being solved. I mean, I wasn't able to come up with a final answer, like Yasu and Gaap's bet, but I did have fun trying to work things out. And there's still more to work out! __________________ Without love this picture cannot be seen.

2012-03-08, 19:32	Link #3638
RandomAvatarFan Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2011	The tea party surely did play with me, but I should have suspected that Bern wouldn't have let the chapter end the way it did, but seriously: "This is the Truth-"...I'm not sure if that red can be trusted at face value. It does however make a nice mush of the question arcs. The parents going out to the chapel like they did in EP2, Eva making her way to Kuwadorian to survive like in EP3, and calling the children out to the tests like in EP4. Still... hearing things like "Ange is nothing more than a tool to keep Rudolf at my side." As for Will and Clair's battle, there actually is a lot in what Clair says. "Earth to Earth. Illusions to Illusions." It's not direct, but a lot of it is fairly easy to see past. Some things I'm not sure of... maybe if I take a page out of Featherine's book and reread the stories before going onto Twilight... __________________ Without love this picture cannot be seen.

2012-03-18, 02:45	Link #3639
unsuspectingvisitor Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2010	I just reread ep7 tea party and i found something interesting. I found a possibility that this tea party and the story about Battler escaping with Beatrice on a boat in Ep8 was somehow connected. But i am not entirely sure about this so I'll ask you guys this question first. Are those two stories really connected ? Was his story a continuation of what happened after the killing in "that tea party"?

2012-03-18, 04:10	Link #3640
GreyZone "Senior" "Member" Join Date: Jan 2012	Unless Kyrie missed "Beatrice" in the gold room when she shot her.... no