AnimeSuki Forums

wao · 2004-12-26, 21:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by USCPharmacist

Anyone know if Sayako is also

Spoiler:

in the manga? I still say the bio concerto saved her hehehe j/k

USE SPOILER TAGS IDIOT!!

The manga is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay different rom the anime so it's no point checking.

Takemi_Ikazuchi · 2004-12-26, 21:35

This series had some of the most interesting concepts and visual metaphors ever, but in the end they fell in love with their own premise.

Too bad. If anything the Gainax tradition lives on.. for the better or worse.

redbaron255 · 2004-12-27, 00:00

Here's my take on the ending and the Sayoko question.

Spoiler:

Sayoko is most definetely not dead, IMO. I found several things I think back this up. First off, the physical markers: the MoO never speaks in the series, not even to Solo, but Sayoko is talking in the last scene, plus Sayoko doesn't have the creepy red glow of death. Then, Bocca says it would be better to be like Kurofune, fighting on alone. Yet, Kurofone could see the Melody of Oblivion, correct? So why would he note the difference if he was alone, and Sayoko was merely a ghost/MoO? And if Sayoko was merely a memory of Bocca's, she wouldn't know new things like that he had let a monster escape.

One thing I keep wondering. Sayoko says that Bocca let a monster escape, but we never see the flute-boy after Bocca's shot. Perhaps the Monster that Bocca let escape was Solo/Monster King? If Solo were wounded but not killed, then Bocca would still be free to be a Melos Senshi and continue his life with Sayoko.

I think in the end after hsi encounter with Solo, if he did indeed let Solo live, Bocca changed his goals from destroying the monsters to helping new Melos Senshis to find out about their talents and learn about the Monsters.

Of course, this mostly has to do with my reading into what the Monsters and Melos Warriors stand for. If the Monsters truly are the "dark" side of humanity - opression, rigidity of society, lack of concern for life and individuality - in essence, the evil in us, it would be impossible to destroy them without destroying mankind. Without evil, there can be no appreciation of good. The best way to fight against the influence of the Monsters (the evil, the oppressive) would then be to teach people that there is another way, that we don't have to surrender mindlessly to our darker sides to live in "society"...that it's not wrong to become a Melos Warrior and fight the Monsters. Naturally, the metaphors and symbols go far beyond that, and weave layers that even I can't follow and will probably need one or two more viewings to even begin to explain, but that seems to me to be a logical explanation for the ending. Of course, in a show that was as IL-logical as this one often was, I could be way off.

I finished this series a few days ago and I still can't get the ending out of my head or stop trying to puzzle out the meanings. Sign of a good series.

babbito2k · 2004-12-27, 01:06

It's easy to turn the "GAINAX tradition" around and indict the viewers who avidly consume a series which shows some ambition and then retch and mewl if said series doesn't present a tidy ending. After all, that's why plenty of shows out there make almost no demands and no impression on the viewer.

Takemi_Ikazuchi · 2004-12-27, 01:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by babbito2k

It's easy to turn the "GAINAX tradition" around and indict the viewers who avidly consume a series which shows some ambition and then retch and mewl if said series doesn't present a tidy ending. After all, that's why plenty of shows out there make almost no demands and no impression on the viewer.

You might want to rephrase that.

Frankly, the ending was relatively solid enough given the premise. That's the least of my complaints. I was mostly referring to space arc episodes. They present a classic example of an artist falling in love with their own work.

babbito2k · 2004-12-27, 01:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Takemi_Ikazuchi

You might want to rephrase that.

In order to fit the explanations you now give for your previous cryptic comments? It really doesn't matter. GAINAX has had its share of viewers turning on them over the way they ended some very good series. And you still don't explain what exactly you object to about the space arc, so I can't follow you there.

Takemi_Ikazuchi · 2004-12-27, 02:30

Ahh.. you should have mentioned that. Very well then..

Sometimes strange things unfold in MoO, but when they do they usually contain a certain artistic value in them. I felt that Gainax abandoned that principle in the last arc. The style simply felt plain to me. Let's start with a few complains:

The cow girls. MoO always had it's share sexual metaphores, but they always managed to keep it subtle and dare I say.. classy? I can't find any value in with the cowgirl scene.

The sudden appearance of the last renegade Aiba machine and the lack of explanation regarding his motives. I'm sorry, but the "he's a disgruntled child with a dangerous toy" premise is a thinly veiled plot device to me.

Dragon Child accidentally stumbling across the sound module. This event is the king of all things coincidental in MoO

The off screen penultimate battle. I've watched enough Gainax shows to know that this is in fact a disguised time and budget saving technique.

All in all, the space arc felt like a half hearted attempt to tie up all the unecessary plot lines to me, but Gainax definitely loved it with all their soul.

Mashimaro · 2004-12-27, 03:07

Hmm I lost track..Solo was suppose to be the "sacrificed" child for the monster at the maze part?
And uh.. what happened to the red head female monster?

Srin Tuar · 2004-12-27, 08:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Takemi_Ikazuchi

The off screen penultimate battle. I've watched enough Gainax shows to know that this is in fact a disguised time and budget saving technique.

All in all, the space arc felt like a half hearted attempt to tie up all the unecessary plot lines to me, but Gainax definitely loved it with all their soul.

To me the las tarc says:
"out of budget, out of inspirations, must finish series"

I think without a single creative voice overseeing an entire series this kind of self-destruct can happen. It reeks of plot-by-commitee.

wao · 2004-12-27, 08:50

But it's not that common to have one person doing the script for the whole series is it?

Lost Souls · 2004-12-27, 09:27

My take on the ending

Solo isnt dead, iif you watch it closely you clearly see it hits him in the shoulder. So im guessing he's still alive and kicking somewhere.

Sayako, i had to rewatch this a few times, but i dont think she's dead. As was said earlier she doesnt have the errie glow that the MoO has, and like what she had when he was imagining her next to him when he was fighting in space.

Everyone else isnt dead, they're on that spaceship thats out of phase with time, so while they're still alive they're stuck there. hmmmm interesting parties going to be going on there me thinks :P

This is definatly the weirdest anime ive seen this year. Maybe we'll get a season 2

dumbo63 · 2004-12-27, 09:51

Where were they fighting? On Earth in the future or past? Or curren time? And what happened to the bad guys with that fat chick that always said viva? I didn't really understand it since i skipped a few eps.

Forbin · 2004-12-27, 12:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lost Souls

My take on the ending

Solo isnt dead, iif you watch it closely you clearly see it hits him in the shoulder. So im guessing he's still alive and kicking somewhere.

Sayako, i had to rewatch this a few times, but i dont think she's dead. As was said earlier she doesnt have the errie glow that the MoO has, and like what she had when he was imagining her next to him when he was fighting in space.

Everyone else isnt dead, they're on that spaceship thats out of phase with time, so while they're still alive they're stuck there. hmmmm interesting parties going to be going on there me thinks :P

This is definatly the weirdest anime ive seen this year. Maybe we'll get a season 2

Ummm Lost Souls

Spoiler:

Netr0 · 2004-12-27, 14:33

Loved the seris except it kinda crapped out at ep 21-24. Also to me I believe that Solo is dead, not just because he got shot but his "perfect one" was killed before his eyes.

Netr0 · 2004-12-27, 14:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by dumbo63

Where were they fighting? On Earth in the future or past? Or curren time? And what happened to the bad guys with that fat chick that always said viva? I didn't really understand it since i skipped a few eps.

They all said viva every single one except for the true Monster King, also when you skip episodes you tend to lose track of the plot - if there was a plot on the Space Arc...

xentron · 2004-12-27, 18:08

Solo is dead?

dreamless · 2004-12-27, 19:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by xentron

Solo is dead?

depending on your interpretation... personally I say no arrow on the shoulder can kill a person

DaFool · 2004-12-27, 23:02

I loved the series, and though the ending arc was like a different style and pacing and (yes, less budget) then the rest, I loved it nevertheless.

And no, I was sober while watching.

I like how they revealed the premise for the Melody of Oblivion. I want to have my own MoO someday, but I know it's going to be painful for the girl to lead a sad immortal lonely existence. But if she glows like MoO #1, she'll look so cool!!!

NoSanninWa · 2004-12-28, 04:02

Utterly blood brilliant.

I just watched the final 4 episodes of MoO and they were wonderful!

My simple and unspoiled summary of the ending is that this was not a rushed project with an unclear ending as some of you are insisting. The ending is as deep and thoughtful and difficult to understand as the rest of the show was. It is also just as complicated and many-layered. If you don't agree, read this installment of "NoSanninWa explains it all."

Spoiler for the wonderful conclusion:

First of all, I'd like to address the subject of whether Sayoko died. That answer is a resounding "Kinda!" Her body definitely died when it was struck by Solo's arrow. Her sacrifice is what made the difference between the two. There is a good reason that she can speak and looks solid unlike Melody. You see, to Solo, Melody was his "perfect" woman. Naturally no woman is really perfect. Because Solo isn't able to accept her imperfections she cannot really be real. By contrast Bocca understands that Sayoko isn't perfect and accepts all of her. Even the difficult parts. I can't honestly say if she has a real body, but her soul is definitely with him. We know that Bocca gave up the idea of a perfect girl, because to him Melody was his perfect girl. By choosing Sayoko instead he choose reality over perfection. Because of that, his power will protect all of her, not just the ideal of her perfection. That's why she's more than a voiceless image.

Now onto the Cows of Oblivion. The reason that Monsters were stealing children is because the cows are a new project to advance Solo's idea of a perfect world. Now he is going even further than before in controlling society. Perhaps he intends to have all future sacrifices bred (and educated) for it, or perhaps some monsters will insist on eating "free range" prey. Who can tell? They are there to demonstrate how humanity can fall even deeper and more obliviously into slavery.

Finally, did Bocca become the new Monster King? NO! We were told that Solo had to become the Monster King to keep the monsters under control. He sold out his principles to join enemy in order to "protect" people. Unfortunately in the process of mitigating the worst of the enemy, Solo became just like them. That's often the way when you make a deal with the devil. Bocca chose a different path. Rather than destroying the monsters or joining them he decided to continue the fight. Even more importantly he decided to inspire people to become individuals and protect themselves. This was his alternative to selling out to protect them as a Monster King. If he can teach people to be themselves, then they won't become the faceless audience. Fighting against monsters is what give humanity individuality and "voice" whereas defeating the monsters for humanity solves nothing.

I suppose the moral of the ending is that everyone needs to learn to face the monsters of society for themselves.

The Yellow Dwarf · 2004-12-28, 04:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by dreamless

depending on your interpretation... personally I say no arrow on the shoulder can kill a person

But the fall afterwards might.

But then again, he is the Monster King Solo-mon the Third. (Represses the upcoming dirty joke.)

Just watched the last episode. Finally my birth sign (dog) makes an apperance for the first time in the entire series, yes! But the creepy lady is a Monster and not an agent, the dog is more likely Kerberos (or maybe Alucard's brother); and the dog melts into a hole into Hades, so I guess it makes sense.

Following the Greek Myth tradition, anybody thinks the cow girls might be living in Elysium?

So the Aiba machines are all horses after all...although I really have to say, Bocca's pegasus is butt-ugly... Everything to keep him on the narrow straight path I guess...

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoSanninWa

I just watched the final 4 episodes of MoO and they were wonderful!

The last episode is good, but the two before it are kind of blah IMO. (Thanks for some very illuminating insights, however.

)

Regarding the complexity of the last story arc, I agree that there are a lot of ideas thrown out here and there.

I'm especially intrigued by the "rogue unicorn" and why Coco is so adamant about scrapping it. But all the tiny bits of wisdom just don't seem to work together in terms of the flow of the story. I think it would be better if they inserted that rogue unicorn somewhere in the middle of the series where all the fillers are.

The reality confusion bit (e.g. the Senshi all of a sudden turned up in a Karaoke, etc.) should've been done a lot smarter too. Right now the "fourth wall" bit and the reality confusion appear a little too random and pointless to me.

Overall, the ending doesn't seem to pull the entire series together the way an ending should, IMO. It's a serviceable one, to be sure. I think the confrontation with the Monster King is great (it was really funny when you find out the secret of the parrot

) and Bokka's ending is predictable and logical. It's just the minor, slightly random stuff littered, or rather, filled the two episodes before the final episode that got me.

2004-12-27, 08:50	Link #650
wao OK. Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: The Fields of High Attus Age: 34	But it's not that common to have one person doing the script for the whole series is it? __________________ Thanks for the fish

2004-12-28, 04:02	Link #659
NoSanninWa Weapon of Mass Discussion Fansubber Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: New York, USA	Utterly blood brilliant. I just watched the final 4 episodes of MoO and they were wonderful! My simple and unspoiled summary of the ending is that this was not a rushed project with an unclear ending as some of you are insisting. The ending is as deep and thoughtful and difficult to understand as the rest of the show was. It is also just as complicated and many-layered. If you don't agree, read this installment of "NoSanninWa explains it all." Spoiler for the wonderful conclusion: First of all, I'd like to address the subject of whether Sayoko died. That answer is a resounding "Kinda!" Her body definitely died when it was struck by Solo's arrow. Her sacrifice is what made the difference between the two. There is a good reason that she can speak and looks solid unlike Melody. You see, to Solo, Melody was his "perfect" woman. Naturally no woman is really perfect. Because Solo isn't able to accept her imperfections she cannot really be real. By contrast Bocca understands that Sayoko isn't perfect and accepts all of her. Even the difficult parts. I can't honestly say if she has a real body, but her soul is definitely with him. We know that Bocca gave up the idea of a perfect girl, because to him Melody was his perfect girl. By choosing Sayoko instead he choose reality over perfection. Because of that, his power will protect all of her, not just the ideal of her perfection. That's why she's more than a voiceless image. Now onto the Cows of Oblivion. The reason that Monsters were stealing children is because the cows are a new project to advance Solo's idea of a perfect world. Now he is going even further than before in controlling society. Perhaps he intends to have all future sacrifices bred (and educated) for it, or perhaps some monsters will insist on eating "free range" prey. Who can tell? They are there to demonstrate how humanity can fall even deeper and more obliviously into slavery. Finally, did Bocca become the new Monster King? NO! We were told that Solo had to become the Monster King to keep the monsters under control. He sold out his principles to join enemy in order to "protect" people. Unfortunately in the process of mitigating the worst of the enemy, Solo became just like them. That's often the way when you make a deal with the devil. Bocca chose a different path. Rather than destroying the monsters or joining them he decided to continue the fight. Even more importantly he decided to inspire people to become individuals and protect themselves. This was his alternative to selling out to protect them as a Monster King. If he can teach people to be themselves, then they won't become the faceless audience. Fighting against monsters is what give humanity individuality and "voice" whereas defeating the monsters for humanity solves nothing. I suppose the moral of the ending is that everyone needs to learn to face the monsters of society for themselves. __________________ There's not that fine a line between willing suspension of disbelief and something just being stupid.

2004-12-26, 21:35	Link #642
Takemi_Ikazuchi Senior Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: The Alternate World	This series had some of the most interesting concepts and visual metaphors ever, but in the end they fell in love with their own premise. Too bad. If anything the Gainax tradition lives on.. for the better or worse.

2004-12-27, 00:00	Link #643
redbaron255 Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2004	Here's my take on the ending and the Sayoko question. Spoiler: Sayoko is most definetely not dead, IMO. I found several things I think back this up. First off, the physical markers: the MoO never speaks in the series, not even to Solo, but Sayoko is talking in the last scene, plus Sayoko doesn't have the creepy red glow of death. Then, Bocca says it would be better to be like Kurofune, fighting on alone. Yet, Kurofone could see the Melody of Oblivion, correct? So why would he note the difference if he was alone, and Sayoko was merely a ghost/MoO? And if Sayoko was merely a memory of Bocca's, she wouldn't know new things like that he had let a monster escape. One thing I keep wondering. Sayoko says that Bocca let a monster escape, but we never see the flute-boy after Bocca's shot. Perhaps the Monster that Bocca let escape was Solo/Monster King? If Solo were wounded but not killed, then Bocca would still be free to be a Melos Senshi and continue his life with Sayoko. I think in the end after hsi encounter with Solo, if he did indeed let Solo live, Bocca changed his goals from destroying the monsters to helping new Melos Senshis to find out about their talents and learn about the Monsters. Of course, this mostly has to do with my reading into what the Monsters and Melos Warriors stand for. If the Monsters truly are the "dark" side of humanity - opression, rigidity of society, lack of concern for life and individuality - in essence, the evil in us, it would be impossible to destroy them without destroying mankind. Without evil, there can be no appreciation of good. The best way to fight against the influence of the Monsters (the evil, the oppressive) would then be to teach people that there is another way, that we don't have to surrender mindlessly to our darker sides to live in "society"...that it's not wrong to become a Melos Warrior and fight the Monsters. Naturally, the metaphors and symbols go far beyond that, and weave layers that even I can't follow and will probably need one or two more viewings to even begin to explain, but that seems to me to be a logical explanation for the ending. Of course, in a show that was as IL-logical as this one often was, I could be way off. I finished this series a few days ago and I still can't get the ending out of my head or stop trying to puzzle out the meanings. Sign of a good series.

2004-12-27, 01:06	Link #644
babbito2k annoying white bat Join Date: Jan 2004	It's easy to turn the "GAINAX tradition" around and indict the viewers who avidly consume a series which shows some ambition and then retch and mewl if said series doesn't present a tidy ending. After all, that's why plenty of shows out there make almost no demands and no impression on the viewer.

2004-12-27, 02:30	Link #647
Takemi_Ikazuchi Senior Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: The Alternate World	Ahh.. you should have mentioned that. Very well then.. Sometimes strange things unfold in MoO, but when they do they usually contain a certain artistic value in them. I felt that Gainax abandoned that principle in the last arc. The style simply felt plain to me. Let's start with a few complains: The cow girls. MoO always had it's share sexual metaphores, but they always managed to keep it subtle and dare I say.. classy? I can't find any value in with the cowgirl scene. The sudden appearance of the last renegade Aiba machine and the lack of explanation regarding his motives. I'm sorry, but the "he's a disgruntled child with a dangerous toy" premise is a thinly veiled plot device to me. Dragon Child accidentally stumbling across the sound module. This event is the king of all things coincidental in MoO The off screen penultimate battle. I've watched enough Gainax shows to know that this is in fact a disguised time and budget saving technique. All in all, the space arc felt like a half hearted attempt to tie up all the unecessary plot lines to me, but Gainax definitely loved it with all their soul.

2004-12-27, 03:07	Link #648
Mashimaro q8D Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Ontario	Hmm I lost track..Solo was suppose to be the "sacrificed" child for the monster at the maze part? And uh.. what happened to the red head female monster?

2004-12-27, 09:27	Link #651
Lost Souls Member Join Date: Nov 2004	My take on the ending Solo isnt dead, iif you watch it closely you clearly see it hits him in the shoulder. So im guessing he's still alive and kicking somewhere. Sayako, i had to rewatch this a few times, but i dont think she's dead. As was said earlier she doesnt have the errie glow that the MoO has, and like what she had when he was imagining her next to him when he was fighting in space. Everyone else isnt dead, they're on that spaceship thats out of phase with time, so while they're still alive they're stuck there. hmmmm interesting parties going to be going on there me thinks :P This is definatly the weirdest anime ive seen this year. Maybe we'll get a season 2

2004-12-27, 09:51	Link #652
dumbo63 Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2004	Where were they fighting? On Earth in the future or past? Or curren time? And what happened to the bad guys with that fat chick that always said viva? I didn't really understand it since i skipped a few eps.

2004-12-27, 14:33	Link #654
Netr0 Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2004	Loved the seris except it kinda crapped out at ep 21-24. Also to me I believe that Solo is dead, not just because he got shot but his "perfect one" was killed before his eyes.

2004-12-27, 18:08	Link #656
xentron Typesetter Join Date: Jan 2004	Solo is dead?

2004-12-27, 23:02	Link #658
DaFool Resident devil Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Philippines	I loved the series, and though the ending arc was like a different style and pacing and (yes, less budget) then the rest, I loved it nevertheless. And no, I was sober while watching. I like how they revealed the premise for the Melody of Oblivion. I want to have my own MoO someday, but I know it's going to be painful for the girl to lead a sad immortal lonely existence. But if she glows like MoO #1, she'll look so cool!!!