2012-03-20, 13:52
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Link #3661 | |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
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So it's possible she wasn't just wearing a padded bra like the one people could buy at the market or some other form of shielding because, if no one were to solve the epitaph and during the game someone were to try and shoot at her, well it could turn useful. Beatrice doesn't die not even if you shoot at her! Isn't this magic, Battler? ^_- As for the blood, all the novel says is that "blood trickled from the witch's mouth". It doesn't say how much. It can be a tiny trail and you can get a tiny trail of blood trickling down from your mouth merely by biting your tongue/the inside of your cheek. I've witnessed a person having convulsions. During them he bit his tongue (or the inside of his cheek) and had a trail of blood trickling out of his mouth. He didn't need to chop his tongue off nor to have serious internal damage. Another way to get a similar effect is if you bit your lip. If the bullet hit a rib and stopped there (which can happen and had happen) it's rather painfull and can cause you to clench your teeth in reflex, ending up biting yourself (you also get a lot of 'nice' extra side consequences but you can still manage to move around). Otherwise, to get Beato to spat blood after being hit the bullet should have pierced one of her lugs and I don't really know how far you can go around with a pierced lug. Generally you drown in your own blood. As Beato's body went unaccounted for and it's unlikely Kyrie and Rudolf moved it around she should have been able to stand and walk away. |
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2012-03-20, 23:10
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Link #3663 |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2011
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This just in: Beatrice's pads are made of kevlar!
Anyway, being serious now. I wanted to say that I do believe that R07 wouldn't write the entire EP7 Tea Party for no other reason than to show Bern trolling Ange. The question is, did that game really not have a Game Master? Bern didn't say it in Red Truth, as far as I'm aware. And even if it didn't have a GM, what exactly does that imply? Would that really mean that the story was completely non-fiction? And if there is a GM, then the whole thing becomes like a standard game, and you end up having to ask these questions: Was there a Detective? If so, who? Were there any parts of it that are more reliable than others? Etc. If I had to guess the Detective, I'd probably say Eva. And conveniently, she faints before Yasu ever gets shot, temporarily destroying her reliable perspective, if in fact she does have one, and throwing everything into the darkness of the Witch. I would have said that maybe Rosa could have been the Detective, because everything suddenly changes so much when she gets shot. But, I think that the Detective would probably be someone who was alive at the end, so that probably wouldn't work. If it's someone alive at the end... If I'm not mistaken, that would be Eva and Battler. And maybe Yasu. The thing is, Yasu's survival has always been ambiguous. She was never confirmed to be a survivor. Spoiler for EP8:
All in all, Yasu's survival depends entirely on whether you have love or not. |
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2012-03-21, 03:56
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Link #3664 | ||
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Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2010
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Also, I would say the scenario was just as much for trolling Lion as it was Ange, and that it served to show the kind of perversity the nature of the catbox can allow. Aaaaand on slightly closer observation, wouldn't a GM be able to say This is all true! in the context of any of their gameboards? After all, it's true that Nanjo stared into the eyes of his killer who was attacking point blank, and was neither Battler, Eva, or Jessica, right? And it's also true that Kanon dies in Jessica's room, at least in that world, yes?Bern trolls Ange because she's easy to troll. 
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2012-03-21, 05:34
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Link #3665 | ||
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Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2010
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About Yasu. She wasn't a character in the stories so It's normal that we didn't know whether she's alive or dead. She is like "Walking corpse" left behind after Beatrice died. Someone in Ep7 tea party said this, Quote:
Anyway, It feels like you ignored that fact that Toyah doesn't really remember everything that had happened at that time. He only remember that he escape from Rokkenjima using a boat and fell in the ocean. Since Battler used "we" while talking about the escape, It's possible that someone was with him at the time. Beatrice was just an Illusion of a witch, Her power existed because of the gold so after someone solve the epitaph her power is disappear. Beatrice manage to exist during the escape because she brought a gold bar with them. I don't know why she jump in the ocean at that time but i am sure she sunk because of that gold bar. Since we didn't know what happened after they fell deeply in the sea i thought of a possibility. Beatrice had a change of heart and throw the gold bar away from her thus making her buoyant. But with the gold gone she wasn't a witch called Beatrice anymore. Somehow, Battler was hit on the head by that gold bar.  Ahahahaha i somehow felt stupid by writing post. My english sucks. 
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2012-03-21, 19:39
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Link #3666 | |||||
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Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
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So Bern wouldn't be the GM because she hadn't thought it herself, nor there would be a real detective because whoever came up with that theory wasn't trying to came up with a game but with a solution (if you want the detective is the guy who came up with that theory). Who witness the game? Ange and Lion. We know Ange suffers due to it but, if Lion is nothing else but a stand in for Yasuda and she survived she too might have been shocked at hearing this theory, expecially if it doesn't match what had really happened or if it's something Yasuda wants to reject. Lion in the beginning thinks to explain things to Ange but that solution isn't something Lion can explain. It would fit with Ikuko/Yasuda feeling guilty for keeping Toya and Ange parted and leaving Ange in the dark. Clair is an empty vessel, which can be seen as someone using her body to deliver a message, while previously in EP 7 Clair seemed to have a 'connection' with the message being delivered, which can match with the idea someone is distorting Yasuda's original message. I've also considered the Teaparty might be nothing else but the story in the diary (plus extra parts to make it fit with the previous games as some things in the Teaparty couldn't be known by Eva) as it's possible Ange and later Yasuda ended up reading it but I'm not sure about it. Quote:
The Teaparty seems biased in describing Eva, Rosa is OOC and so Kyrie and Rudolf. If the detective were to be Battler Ep 7 would be nothing else but an alternate version of EP 4 (with which shares some things) in which the detective saw nearly nothing. Quote:
We could say in red that: Shannon and Kanon died before leaving Rokkenjima and Beato died short after. Ikuko, on the contrary, never went on Rokkenjima and had no connections with it. Quote:
[QUOTE=unsuspectingvisitor;4063772]I don't think Ep7 tea party was a game. The epitaph was solve, the murder mystery game was stopped because of that and i can't see a mystery here that needs solving so it wasn't a game at all. There's no need for a detective to begin with. About Yasu. She wasn't a character in the stories so It's normal that we didn't know whether she's alive or dead. She is like "Walking corpse" left behind after Beatrice died. Someone in Ep7 tea party said this, Quote:
The interesting part is that this matches with the previous part of EP 7 in which Will was asked to figure out who killed Beatrice and in the end it was said Yasuda killed her. Though if it's Yasuda who's talking to the parents the weird part is that she's totally emotionless. Short before she was just told that Battler as a child liked her and now she's fine with this result? But well, I guess I expect her to react like Beatrice but since Beato is dead maybe she can't react as such... |
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2012-03-25, 16:59
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Link #3667 |
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"Senior" "Member"
Join Date: Jan 2012
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I am still wondering why Battler didn't appear in EP7 until the tea party (aside from prologue)
Maybe in fact, Battler DID remember the promise with Shanon and only went to the conference because of it. It doesn't seem like he made the same promise with Lion though... of course we could just say that he didn't come, because it would "make the game too easy for Will", but there must be a real life reason too. And then the "magical" disappearence of Battler and Beatrice's corpse in the tea party. If she survived and led him away from Rudolph, Eva and Kyrie, she must been either very convincing... or Battler trusted her to begin with for some reason... |
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2012-03-25, 19:24
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Link #3668 | |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2011
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As for the disappearance of Beatrice's corpse... It's hard to say that she actually survived, and we've already established that fact pretty well here. You at least need to offer a possible explanation for it before you believe it, in my opinion. Though, there has been a theory that throughout the games, Beatrice never actually looked very much like the woman in the portrait (although it's possible that she sometimes wore the dress). This is because it's very difficult to imagine that, after 2 generations, she STILL looks exactly like Beatrice Castiglioni. There's even a theory going around that she isn't Beatrice II's child in the first place, which would mean that she definitely wouldn't look the same. There's also an essay Renall wrote up at one point, basically saying that there is no need for her to look like Beatrice in the first place. The only thing we'd have to explain is the scene in EP4 where Battler saw her, but that was from quite some distance away, so it would be hard to imagine that he saw her very clearly. In other words, according to that theory, any scene where Beatrice is seen up close and shown to still look exactly like the woman in the portrait, would be a fantasy scene. This calls into question everything from the moment she showed herself in that room until the last moment anyone paid attention to her. Of course, you could simply explain it as "she actually does look like Beatrice" or "she was wearing an elaborate disguise," or even "this is a modified cat box," but it's something to think about. With that out of the way, I think it's also possible for us to say that someone moved her corpse with the intention of burying it, or something... But, then we have to ask the questions of "who moved it?" and "why only her?" The second question implies that it could be Battler or maybe George, but that raises far too many problems, all in all. It'd be hard to justify it. So, it's even less likely than her surviving and leaving on her own. I think the most likely theory is that Eva didn't even notice her corpse. Or, if she really did survive, then we would probably have to assume that the scene where she got shot was a fantasy scene. |
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2012-03-25, 19:29
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Link #3669 | |||||||
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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It seems to imply Beato/Clair is from a point in time prior to EP 5 and the Battler they're talking about is MetaBattler. It doesn't explain though why Lion's world PieceBattler isn't around (apart from the fact maybe Bern didn't want him around) unless 'Beato' died for him too (as Lion's existence killed her) and her existence was the reason due to which he returned to Rokkenjima (meaning in the other games he returned due to Shannon being on the island but since he didn't developed the same feelings for Lion he has no reason to come back). Though in Lion's world we can't even be sure if Battler left the Ushiromiya as in the other worlds or returned to them in that year as all the info we get about Battler's argument with his father are given by other characters who also, in reporting the facts, tended to forget Lion's presence. Quote:
Battler said that: Quote:
Also I would have liked to see Battler and Lion interact. All we're told is: Quote:
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That or Beato was wounded and he had to rush her to a hospital out of the islant or he was the one who got shot and had to be carried to a hospital. Either way I'd like for Ryukishi to release a sidestory with some Battler & Lion interaction. Quote:
I prefer to think she was shot but the wound wasn't fatal. |
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2012-03-25, 23:04
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Link #3670 |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2010
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Spoiler for GreyZone's Post:
Well, it is odd, granted. I think Bern just considered his presence unnecessary, but the same "I can't talk now goodbye" avoidance Bern made Maria pull should've been just as effective... Spoiler for Toku's Post:
Huh, I didn't think anybody seriously thought Yasu looked anything like Beatrice. I agree that Eva likely just didn't mention her body, since she never seems to question where she (or Kanon) is. Hm. It's also possible that Rudolf didn't make his apology in Lion's world, by Bern's meddling. After all, she claims to have had to search diligently for Lion through the kakera, but it's also pretty obvious that Lion's world, outside the "trapped between multiverses" chapel, isn't a regular mystery / fantasy gameboard like the others we've seen, anyway. So it'd be no real thing to say "Rudolf never apologized, here." If anything, it's a far smaller switch than Natsuhi accepting the baby, Kinzo still being alive, and Kyrie going ape-nuts despite not even having a cash-card to go ape-nuts over. |
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2012-03-26, 01:55
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Link #3672 |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2011
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I'm inclined to agree with Aura on Battler. EP7 isn't even an individual Fragment, it has pieces from many Fragments - the cousins are from a different Fragment to Lion (they have memories where she doesn't exist), Shannon and Kanon are able to co-exist with Lion, and so on. Everything there is there because Bern wanted it there, nothing more.
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2012-03-26, 07:34
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Link #3673 |
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"Senior" "Member"
Join Date: Jan 2012
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But Bern is not really the game master, Aurora is. After all Bern said herself in the ???TP that she can "finally open her own gameboard". And Aurora's order to Bern was to perform the burial of Beatrice. But which Beatrice? I doubt she was talking about 'Yasu', but instead about the "murdering witch" from EP1-4.
The "murder witch theory" means that in EP1-4 Beatrice's "role" was the same as Black Battler in forgery X, hell, even the same as Eva-Beatrice in EP3. Well at the end the murdering witch was killed by Battler in EP4TP. Only the shell of Beatrice remained, but she lost her "role" and with it her personality. She died at the End of EP5. From here on I call her "Doll-Beatrice". And then there is the "revived Beatrice" from EP6. So? Whose burial is EP7 about? "Murder Beatrice", "Doll Beatrice", "Revived Beatrice" or maybe is it one that was created artificially by Bern/Aurora? What do you think? |
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2012-03-26, 13:19
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Link #3674 | ||
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The True Culprit
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
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2012-03-26, 14:02
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Link #3675 |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2011
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It's as AuraTwilight said: Kinzo holds a funeral for the two Beatrice's he knew. On the MetaLevel, it's Bern holding a "funeral" for the illusion of the witch.
My problem is this: what is the book on the altar on the nonfantasy gameboard? If it is what we are led to believe it to be in EP8, then what is it doing there?
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2012-03-26, 15:10
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Link #3676 |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2010
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I don't quite get the ending in episode 6, when both Aurora and Bern say that tea is best enjoyed with fellow monsters.
Nothing in the entire series made Aurora look like a monster to me? Is it just that "ripping out the guts" of the tale was the monstrous act here? Can someone explain this? |
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2012-03-26, 15:26
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Link #3677 | ||
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The True Culprit
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
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2012-03-26, 15:52
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Link #3678 | |
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"Senior" "Member"
Join Date: Jan 2012
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However if what you say about Battler's Beatrice funeral is true, then either: 1. He is a worse ass than all of the other witches combined, because he trolled Erika with a non-existent-fake-piece-Beato in EP6 and pretended a scenario, where Erika had a chance to win the game, that did not exist at all. If the Beato was genuine though, then Erika would at least have a chance and BATTLER's action at least would have a meaning, which in your scenario is impossible. Oh WAIT! Then the same would apply to EP8 with ANGE, but since this is the EP7 thread, i won't spoil any more. OR 2. The funeral in the prologue of EP7 happened BEFORE the game in EP6. I don't see a problem with this, as it may have been a flashback. This would also explain how Beato reappeared in EP8. (EDIT: damn... wanted to post almost 3 hours ago, but forgot to click on the "post" button -.- ) |
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2012-03-26, 16:08
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Link #3679 | |
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The True Culprit
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
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2012-03-26, 16:45
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Link #3680 | |
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"Senior" "Member"
Join Date: Jan 2012
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Since this is EP7 thread i will not go into depth about the "real world" at this point. Regarding the Beatrices: Both are the personification of the gameboard's rules. So it is possible that they are the same beings, just with... well... one them having amnesia. The "can never revive again" can be easily defeated. She was "reborn" or "resurrected" and not revived. So the red truth does not apply to her. If that does not work for you, there is still the possibility that She was not dead to begin with. I mean how many times was Kanon "dead" already? Oh wait... Beato died twice too... Spoiler for EP8 -- Better DON'T READ THIS if you haven't finished EP8 yet:
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