2013-01-10, 12:50 | Link #681 | |
Nyaaan~~
Join Date: Feb 2006
Age: 40
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As I said before, War is a dispute resolution mechanism between states -- in a civil society we have granted the state (barring exclusions) the sole monopoly on legitimate uses of violence. I wasn't responding to you specifically but more in general on the topic. There's a reason wars happen and it's silly to just say "War is not acceptable!"
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2013-01-10, 12:59 | Link #682 | |
formerly ogon bat
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Mexico
Age: 53
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2013-01-10, 13:15 | Link #683 | |
Nyaaan~~
Join Date: Feb 2006
Age: 40
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In our modern society, even a single "state" according to the U.N. no longer has the right to use force. That said, the Security Council of the U.N. reserves the right to "Enforce its decisions militarily, or by any means necessary". It seems like you are of the mind that war can always be avoided and is never necessary? Just like war can be used to seize territory or inflict grievous harm, so can other non-military actions .. that may need the threat of force to dissuade.
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2013-01-10, 13:28 | Link #684 | |||||
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And btw, consider that war means more taxes in money and/or goods = less food for the family = generally less healthy peasants/serfs + strong young men being taken away for soldiering => fewer and less able people working under worse conditions => add some inevitably occurring droughts or epidemics => much less of whatever crops they're raising. (Never mind things like "exhausting" the soil or armed skirmishes between local lords ending with destroyed villages and crops.) This is not exactly something that can continue forever and ever. You can expect peasant revolts (which demand military attention), but it's also a great way to dig your own grave on the long run. Quote:
No, actually, it was called, for example, 12th-13th century France. Or Italy. Or, as Sheba said, Iberia under Muslim rule. Etc. As Sheba said, people have this impression of the Middle Ages as being all dark and grimy and intellectually empty and never changing, but that wasn't the case at all. And there were large differences between territories, or even on the same territory in different times. Quote:
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Also, forgot to add: (Uwah, sorry for the size of the previous one, I didn't notice it was so huge.) I have no "sources" per se, and I can't be bothered enough to dig them out of wherever I put them after I graduated (more years ago than I care to admit) - but the fandom for this franchise seems large enough that someone has already done some research. But for disclosure, I studied Medieval English history and literature which obviously had to include the relevant parts of Europe as well, and while I have forgotten much of it, I still fancy myself somewhat knowledgeable about the topic. (Even if my English had gotten worse... -_-) Last edited by kuromitsu; 2013-01-10 at 13:47. |
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2013-01-10, 15:19 | Link #685 | |
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Sometimes, though, war is just about a powerful charismatic leader or state having the stronger military, and deciding that it's going to be used to just flatout steal land and territory that they know legally belongs to another state. Napolean, Stalin, Genghis Khan... none of these men were under the delusion that they were taking territory that didn't rightfully belong to other nations. They just took that territory because they had the stronger military at the time, period. So yes, it was just outright thievery at the national level (which is called "annexation"). As for the idea that war is good for the economy... It is, up to a point. Specifically, it can cause a spike in the manufacturing sector. War means you need more weapons and more armor being built. Good for smithies in the middle ages. Good for tank manufacturers during WW II. The economic benefits of perpetual war is very dubious to me, though. For one thing, such a system would depend on two sides being almost perfectly matched - Otherwise, one side simply wins (insomuch as you can win in war, anyway), and thus the war ends. Maintaining such a stalemate indefinitely is almost impossible. Keep in mind that the people fighting in a war are like the Hero of this anime - They want to win, period. In other words, they want to destroy the enemy and end the war. They don't want to be doing this forever. And even in a perfect stalemate, at some point the civilian population on both sides are just going to get sick of it and want it to end so that the steadily rising casualty counts stop. Just look at how tired modern America is of the Iraq war/occupation.
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2013-01-10, 15:32 | Link #686 |
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Please note that the Demon Queen isn't saying that perpetual war is good for the economy.
She's just saying that the present state of having only two sides is preferable to multiple small scale conflicts, and more importantly, that one side decisively triumphing over the other would just result in even more misery. For the losing side, certainly, but also for a lot of the guys in the winning side. Banditry, famine, unemployment... Or maybe a multi-sided war among the victors for the spoils... |
2013-01-10, 15:59 | Link #687 | ||
Bag Giver
Join Date: Jan 2012
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The rulers view the effects of the war on a larger scale, but that also does not necessarily mean they see "the big picture." Take the rulers of the Winter country, for example. They are aware of food shortages before the war, and they are aware of the lack of food shortages during the war. They are also aware of the funds from the Central Nations. They can easily predict from the comparison the sort of consequences that would result from ending the war now. These are comparisons that real world medieval rulers and merchants can make. However, macroeconomics as an organized predictive study did not really occur until the 17th century or later. The theories of macroeconomics, while often wrong, allow for predictions of long term consequences. For example, it is fairly simple for the Central Nations to see that it is buying security by aiding the Winter country, but what is the long term consequence of taxing your population then shipping the taxes out to another country to be destroyed in a war? I believe Kaynesian economics predict a short term increase in economic activity and significant inflation in the long term--reasonable to see as only beneficial in the 15 year interval the series postulated for the war but problematic in the long run. In that sense, I agree with kuromitsu's initial assessment: The Demon King is the only one who really grasp macroeconomics as a predictive study. That being said... Quote:
Another approach is to tell a story of how the person would choose her starting conditions and modify her methods based on real world observations. In this case, the adventures through the world gives the audience a first hand view of the conditions the theory is meant to grasp and the difficulties with which it must deal. In this approach, Maoyu is both more and less advanced than Prelude to Foundation: less in the sense that macroeconomics is far less comprehensive than psychohistory, more in the sense that macroeconomic formulas are already in place, while psychohistory has only been proven to be possible in Prelude. In some ways, the Demon King and the Hero remind me of a gender flipped version of Hari Seldon and Dors Venabili, where it's the female that is the strong protector and the male the more intellectual. Although in this respect Maoyu is a bit lacking, because Dors is an accredited historian, while the Hero is essentially all brawns.
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2013-01-10, 16:36 | Link #688 | ||
Black Steel Knight
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Indonesia
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Also, how do you know that those merchants only count on their account books? For all we know, they can also do some observation on the outside world and new territories to broaden their horizon, not merely watching their usual trading routes or account books. Quote:
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2013-01-10, 16:53 | Link #689 | |
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Join Date: Dec 2004
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2013-01-10, 17:08 | Link #690 | ||
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
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2013-01-10, 17:08 | Link #691 | |
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2013-01-10, 17:31 | Link #692 | |||
Bag Giver
Join Date: Jan 2012
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What is macroeconomics? It is the study of the workings of an economy as a whole. In other words, macroeconomics is the big picture of economies. I merely used a simple substitution of equivalent terms. You assume that the setting of right of what everyone else is doing wrong means that the person that is doing the “setting right” is some sort of Messiah. It can be done this way, of course, e.g. Gundam Seed; and it can even be done violently, e.g. Children of Dune, but it is not a necessary consequence. The solution to how to “set everyone right” can be subtle and quite diabolical, as demonstrated in the short story “In a Good Cause-.” Having the person who is right be grandiose and didactic is a common failing, but it is not a necessary one where he is the one setting out to right the wrongs of the world.
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2013-01-10, 18:01 | Link #693 | ||
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Join Date: Dec 2004
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In ep 1 there was that prince, Hirakawa Daisuke's character who did stop and wonder if there was a point in being at war, but then he backed off when his dad told him that their lands were crap yadda-yadda. (Which, by the way, had a loophole that I can't believe no-one ever stopped and thought about yet, even if only on a "hmmm, what would happen if...?" level. Also, if their circumstances really suck so much then how on earth had they survived as an independent kingdom until the war? Besides, it's not like the Nordic countries were ever particularly rich in bountiful farmland, and yet they managed to get by via growing hardy crops and doing other stuff such as fishing or trading timber. Also, vikings.) Quote:
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2013-01-10, 18:21 | Link #694 | |
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Plus, it's not a question of lack of intelligence. It's a question of lack of motivation. For many in the human world, they reap the benefits of the war without enduring any of the associated costs. There is little motivation for them to try to think of "a better way" when the current situation is fine for them. In the real world today, we have a situation where part of the world engages in little more than slave labor sweatshop work to provide cheap goods and clothes to the more developed parts of the world. How many of the people that benefit from that really stop to think about it? Of those people, how many truly try to find "a better way"?
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2013-01-10, 18:33 | Link #695 | |
Not Enough Sleep
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: R'lyeh
Age: 48
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2013-01-10, 18:56 | Link #696 |
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Join Date: Aug 2007
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She also has likely had access to whatever the demons have in the way of teaching and libraries. From the sound of it, the demons have been to more than one world. Their libraries may be extensive. She may well have information that human scholars and leaders, however well intentioned some of them could be, just don't have access to.
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2013-01-10, 19:02 | Link #697 | ||
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Currently we have next to no info on the backgrounds of anyone or what the major socio economic forces are of the setting. Is there a single church or are the many faiths and sects? Are they intrested in the goodwill of thier followers or are they corupt? Are there trade guilds and banks, and if so how much infunce do they hold? Are how are relations between the kingdoms or humans? How unified are the deamons? How and why does the Demon Lord have such advanced knowlage?
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2013-01-10, 19:19 | Link #698 | ||||||
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Basically, I was talking about what I think is a writing issue. Quote:
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ETA For what it's worth, before anyone misunderstands: I'm not saying the show is bad. Last edited by kuromitsu; 2013-01-10 at 19:55. |
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2013-01-10, 19:55 | Link #699 | ||
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With this in mind, I don't see the big problem in someone like the Demon King being the first to see what's wrong with the current situation, and to begin to chart a course out of it. If you look at many of the major social revolutions in human history, they tended to be focused around specific individuals. Gandi. Nelson Mendela. Martin Luther King Jr. Change, when it happens, has to start somewhere. I don't see why it's so problematic for such change, in this anime, to start with the Demon King. I'll grant you that it would be nice if she encounters people who are quick on the uptake, as it were, and long had thoughts on the war similar to her's. Quote:
I can get why you don't like the way this narrative seems to be going. But I get the impression that this part of the narrative is "take it or leave it", so you'll probably have to adjust to it if you want to enjoy the show.
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2013-01-10, 21:19 | Link #700 | ||
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Although we haven't been given much info on the king and prince they have shown enough to reasonably assume that they are kind and care about thier subjects well being. If that is true the the king's statement that without the war funds they would have an uncertain existence points to at the current knowlage, farming, fishing and trade level of that kingdom and useing all thier resorces they can spare the best they can hope for is a tight winter for thier people and god help them if it is a bad winter. As for why do they live there you might as well ask why have humans lived in so many god forsaken places where one bad season could lead to disaster, it's kinda what we do. And for the some what large number of able body men for the armies: 15 years of war funds = 15 years of more food = 15 years of lesspeople dieing from stavation = more able bodied people. Quote:
Just remember the whole ep was only the Demon Lord explaining how the world realy is to someone that saw it in almost childlike terms (demons bad, humans good, war bad) that doesn't understand the subtlties of economics (he's a RPG hero they sell thier stuff back for half the cost they buy it for) of course she had to dumb it down a bit.
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economics, fantasy, harem |
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