2013-04-11, 09:58 | Link #4164 |
The Mage of Four Hearts
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Join Date: Mar 2010
Age: 34
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Here you go. Though it's not a Noble Phantasm, and the Servant is only there because of Moon Cell shenanigans.
In reality, though a gun might get raised to be a Noble Phantasm, there's no such thing as a Heroic Spirit that would wield it, Word of God.
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2013-04-11, 12:32 | Link #4165 | |
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While I have no problem believing that most people couldn't be Heroic Spirits who use guns, the problem is, isn't a Heroic Spirit someone that did such an incredible deed in life that they're basically worshiped? By that vein, the Red Baron and the White Death would both be able to make it to the throne of Heroes, simply because of what they managed to accomplish, even though they had guns. If you want to get technical with the whole "just being capable of using it well" thing that prevents them from making it, then how come Iskender made it? He didn't have any magical weapons on hand. He just used what was available to the best possible extreme.
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2013-04-11, 12:53 | Link #4166 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2011
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I think it had something to do with the definition of heroic spirits being those who could do that which was deemed impossible by humans means. So by the time we'd made guns no one really believed in magic anymore and we didn't have as many myths in that time because we had actual explanations for things rather than saying that it was just because guy X came along and was super badass/magical and we'd never be able to do that ourselves. When we see someone using a gun to kill people we're that much more likely to look at them and say "yeah well that's not that impressive since it was mostly the gun doing it" than we are if we see someone carve through a group of people with swords or a spear
This is of course just my guess, but what I think makes sense, you attriute it to being a good gun not a good marksman, thus the NP but not Heroic spirit thing |
2013-04-11, 12:56 | Link #4167 | |
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But in the cases of the White Death and Red Baron, well... They really were pretty supernatural. Especially since Mr. White Death made all of the USSR piss their pants in terror at his name.
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2013-04-11, 14:23 | Link #4168 |
Manus ad Ferrum
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Costa Rica
Age: 33
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Well, to me the idea of guns making people not able to be Heroic Spirits is really… stupid. If you think about it the other Heroic Spirits also used instruments to increase their chances. The Noble Phantoms are even more destructive than most guns these days but yet using a sword that can cut a mountain in half makes one a heroic spirit but a simple revolver makes you just some guy with a gun. When you come down to it there is no real difference, both are using a weapon to perform their “heroic task” so why are magical items that can break the laws of physics ok but guns aren’t?
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2013-04-11, 14:33 | Link #4169 | |
Otaku Apprentice
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And by guns, I meant modern weapons.
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2013-04-11, 14:35 | Link #4170 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2011
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Maybe it has something to do with our attitude of stuff becoming more possible to do with science nowadays than we had in the past? (this was in the original post too btw and something that was mentioned as being one of the reasons heroic spirits come from the past mostly, pretty sure EMIYA is an exception due to being a counter guardian and not because he was able to do things that were impossible on his own) there's also the whole humans have a limited amount of power over the entire race and so as we get more of them each individual one is weaker thing going on so people in Gilgamesh's time and so on were a lot stronger than we are now anyways, stuff like that but again, I'm guessing here, I'm not going to be able to say 100% "this is why it is like this" |
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2013-04-11, 15:00 | Link #4171 | ||||
The Mage of Four Hearts
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Join Date: Mar 2010
Age: 34
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You have the order mixed up. It's not because they have Noble Phantasms that they become Heroic Spirits, but because they are unique, miraculous beings that they're able to use Noble Phantasms.
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2013-04-11, 15:32 | Link #4172 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: USA
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I don't think people from WW1/WW2 would be able to make it as a Heroic Spirit, but not because they use firearms.
Yi Sun-Shin could probably make it as a Heroic Spirit (especially since Francis Drake did) and he is known for using cannons aboard turtle ships. I don't see why older Chinese heroes couldn't make use of some firearms either, since it's more their feats that matter than the weapons used. |
2013-04-11, 15:55 | Link #4173 |
Gamilas Falls
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 46
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Heroic Spirits tend to be people that are legendary, that did amazing feats. There are very few modern legendary people that would even come close to being posssible. Mostly because we don't place people on the legendary platform since probably the 1800s. You might find some legendary lawmen from the Old West, but warriors from the World Wars? Not likely. Mostly because it was those wars that made men mostly ordinary. There was no glory or honor anymore in war. Sure there were heroic feats, but legends are not something that happen often.
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2013-04-11, 15:58 | Link #4174 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: The Netherlands
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2013-04-11, 19:08 | Link #4175 |
Manus ad Ferrum
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Costa Rica
Age: 33
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Well I did think about the Heroic Spirits being awesome and then taking the NP but that doesn’t work always. You see if we go by the fact that anyone can use a gun anyone can use a sword to cut someone. And both need training and time to master, agree one is simple to use in some levels but again: what is so special about the sword? With this logic a bow is also something anyone can use and the same with spears and other weapons. Hey many heroes were only heroes because they had their NP even Saber will be nobody without Caliburn or Excalibur. And we can’t pretend that having such powerful swords doesn’t help you in battle. Even Shirou who recreated Caliburn was able to use it and keep fighting a Servant one on one and Excalibur is the most powerful sword or second but I am trying to make a point there.. If the idea of people who use guns not being able to become Heroic Spirits because anyone can use a gun, then anyone can use any weapon.
My point is that the idea of “anyone can use a gun” or “guns make it so easy” should not be the factor that determinates if one can be a Heroic Spirit or not. In the end all you need is a bunch of people that think you are awesome and then you can be an Heroic Spirit, if we also go by the fact that some of them weren’t real people but just legends like Assassin in Fate/Stay Night. So what could be the true decisive factor on Heroic Spirits?
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2013-04-11, 21:49 | Link #4180 |
That one guy
Join Date: Nov 2011
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In EMIYA's case, his legend exists in the future. The throne of heroes exists outside of time so it doesn't matter. His legend exists but in the 5th war does not exist yet.
He is also said to be far weaker than any servant at least physically. Maybe along the lines of Shinji powered rider. His unlimited blade works draws on the NP of others so borrowed concepts and legends acknowledged by people. |
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