(CR) Witchcraft Works [anime]

[ZodiacBeast]

Originally Posted by Tempest35

Spoiler for Speculation on Ayaka and Honoka's actual connection:

At this point, there is ONE thing that comes to mind and that's because we've seen young Ayaka covered in bandages, particularly her head. I wonder if she had an accident that pretty much killed her and Kazane (and/or adult Honoka) bound a portion of Honoka's (and by extension - Evermillion's magic)/soul? to Ayaka to keep her alive. ... this would make their interactions a bit more loaded than before.

Spoiler for More Speculah:

This sounds about right and most people I've talked to agree that it seems like what will be revealed, most likely in the next few chapters.

Also, the Honoka in Ayaka's dreams is the current Honoka (not a child) so he might end up having to travel back in time in order to set up the events that lead to his future.

I feel like this should be in the manga thread, but this thread is still somewhat lively. I'll probably just go there later if other people show up.

[frodonk]

meh, mediocre show.

The pacing was really fast, the characters were interesting, but the story itself leaves much to be desired, most people would point out that the source material doesn't have these flaws, but at this point i'm getting tired of that reason, flawless adaptations are getting rarer nowadays.

It managed to become interesting for me though, in the end it was enough for me

[Tenzen12]

He will not. If this show doesn't click with someone, it will not become more interesting to him second time, especialy as this one already condemmed it.

[Pesti13nce]

Originally Posted by philip72

Takamiya Honoka 2pure4allofU. They forget he's the heroine, not generic-shounen-protag-kun, and heroine's prize their chastity.

Spoiler for Pic:

This was probably the best post of this entire thread.. ahaha Honoka is amazing.

[ellessarr]

i dont get all that hate over takamia, i can name a lot of mc who are "worst" than him( at last with romance or dealing with girls) and i dont see peoples complain over it, just because this show make him just more obviou, or turn in the "guyi in distress compared with others "mc" he is far better and much less one dimensional, than the awesome kirito or the guy of machine who are godly guys but horrible to deal with girls who make honoka look more manly than them.

most of his problems are justified by the fact who he is a "normal person" he never was magic, never have powers, aways was a "average normal person" which unlike many protrag-kuns who start as average mc then suddenly become gods or in the same moment gain power already know how to fight or defeat anything in the world, he just started in the mage world, everything for him is new and kagari try to avoiding teach him in fear who he can become a more visible target also dont help ofcourse, but actually he like in a real world is developing "slowly" he not a talented mage or someone who born already being a mage god, and in point of that the power who he is carrying is dangerous to be used, it's not something easy to control and can easy take his life, then really he being bad at this is more normal and real than many others shows, where for the lulz or none good reason the mc already start the master or all martial arts or being able to full dominate his power.

[justsomeguy]

What I liked:
* This show is batshit insane!

What I didn't like:
* prior to Weekend the plot is episodic and built no tension at all.
* Takamiya-kun is useless, as expected of a male macguffin character, and the other characters seem determined to keep him that way.
* Kagari's entire character revolves around Takamiya-kun.
* Most of the other characters don't show up enough or do enough to leave any interesting impression, beyond whatever generic archetypes they fill. The potentially interesting characters are the antagonists, Chronoire, Medusa, and the Fail 5, but given how they keep jobbing I don't think they'll ever get to shine until the climax of the story, if even.

Score: 7/10. Entertaining enough, but I'm not exactly enthusiastic for more.

[ZodiacBeast]

Originally Posted by justsomeguy

What I didn't like:
* prior to Weekend the plot is episodic and built no tension at all.

Yeah, pretty much. It was trying to show various characters and aspects of the magical world before the first major conflict. A few chapters after the anime are episodic again but 31 onward seem to be setting up some reveals.

Originally Posted by justsomeguy

* Takamiya-kun is useless, as expected of a male macguffin character, and the other characters seem determined to keep him that way.

Uh...did you not pay attention at a certain point? Evermillion's power could be used to destroy the world, and Ayaka keeps inspecting Honoka to make sure that nothing is going wrong with his body due to her influence. And he's getting less useless. Check chapter 28. Well, there's that and the fact that he helped save the city.

Anybody besides Ayaka wants to either use Honoka for evil or keep him from being used for evil, because of the whole "end of the world thing".

Originally Posted by justsomeguy

* Kagari's entire character revolves around Takamiya-kun.

Yeah, but the manga hasn't gotten there yet. I believe it will sooner than later, though. It's hinted to be because of some event in their childhood, which was mentioned in the anime (Ayaka's dreams).

Originally Posted by justsomeguy

* Most of the other characters don't show up enough or do enough to leave any interesting impression, beyond whatever generic archetypes they fill. The potentially interesting characters are the antagonists, Chronoire, Medusa, and the Fail 5, but given how they keep jobbing I don't think they'll ever get to shine until the climax of the story, if even.

This is true. I find the KMM (Medusa's 5 underlings) to be especially entertaining. I have to admit that I hope that they develop the lesser characters more in the future. Chapters 28-30 deal with the KMM in a few ways...not that they fare any better.

I also find myself anticipating what they'll reveal about the relationship between Honoka and Ayaka in the past. It should show why they're the way they are today and also lead them into some development and chemistry.

Originally Posted by justsomeguy

Score: 7/10. Entertaining enough, but I'm not exactly enthusiastic for more.

Coolness. I'm glad you got at least some entertainment out of it. Hopefully (if it comes around in a few years after more chapters) season two would reveal what season 1 was lacking - reveals, deeper character development and chemistry, etc. This first season just had the bad luck to end at the point it did.

[justsomeguy]

Originally Posted by ZodiacBeast

Uh...did you not pay attention at a certain point? Evermillion's power could be used to destroy the world, and Ayaka keeps inspecting Honoka to make sure that nothing is going wrong with his body due to her influence. And he's getting less useless. Check chapter 28. Well, there's that and the fact that he helped save the city.

Anybody besides Ayaka wants to either use Honoka for evil or keep him from being used for evil, because of the whole "end of the world thing".

That's exactly why I said he was useless. Takamiya-kun is on the same track as other male macguffin characters (such as say, Sakai Yuuji). He's unable to compete against experienced people with powers, and he's wanted for the power inside him, not for any other traits he might possess because he's normal otherwise. Kagari hasn't taught him much self defense; she would prefer that he runs away and to keep Evermillion sealed, and if the teacher's words are trustworthy magic is mostly a female thing in universe. Tanpopo calls him stupid, and most of the student body hates him. Takamiya-kun just hasn't demonstrated any initiative or manliness without being heavily guided by the predominantly female cast.

[Tempest35]

.....

Weeeeell, I can't fault you for thinking like that. There's no two ways about it - Takamiya IS a macguffin character.

Certainly he does seem useless when stacked against characters who have 1) known that they are witches all along, 2) some of whom have been witches for literally 'ages', 3) and were actually taught to use the magic inside of them.

Yes, Ayaka would prefer if he did run away and leave the fighting to her. It's dangerous not only to himself but to everyone else if he's involved in a fight and the enemy manages to not only outwit, but kill Takamiya, thus freeing Evermillion from him. This was Weekend's plan and it was nearly successful. It's not because 'oh, he's a male in a female-dominated universe'.

As far as initiative is concerned, Takamiya's shown quite a bit of initiative on his own. He's already asked Ayaka to make him her apprentice but she's too busy taking pictures of him to really teach him anything that could be used in a fight. When that route wasn't work, he went to his sister. His sister is under orders to protect him too so she just tells him to train his body, which he does, while just spending time with him like she wanted. Who else is he going to ask? Kazane? ...nope. Not only is she suppose to protect him, but that would interfere with the apprenticeship between him and her daughter. The Tower Witches are out of the equation (for now). This leaves Evermillion herself. Maybe they can get the whole 'train in the inner world' thing like the zanpakuto from Bleach.

Showing initiative will not always show good results - sometimes, bad things happen especially when one doesn't know what they're doing and they decide to 'show initiative'. Case in point: Takamiya. Of course, this is all being accounted for by the Tower Witches who actively USE the fact that they know that his 'male pride' (such as it is) is hurt and he's most likely feeling useless and wants to help or at the very least, defend himself because 'he's a normal guy'. They know that and they put him into situations where he ends up doing what they want because of it. Devious plans are those that use the natural instincts of the prey to ensnare them deeper into the trap.

Trying to get someone who doesn't have a fighting bone in their body, or even a willingness to hurt people, to fight at all is painful - not only to watch, but to try and train as well. Takamiya is not a fighter by any stretch of the imagination. Making him into a competent fighter will take YEARS. If he WAS a fighter, then we'd get something similar to the 9-Tails (Kurama) and Naruto...but this is not that kind of story (yet...maybe?) No, he'll work better as a tactician for now until Evermillion decides to stop lounging around inside of him and actually do something.

No offense is meant, but if you were 'captured' by an Amazon and taken back to live with the daughter of the tribe leader, you'd be the guy who'd try to fight your way out/escape at the first opportunity, wouldn't you? (After you recovered from... snu-snu and assuming she likes you enough not to break your legs.)

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by justsomeguy

That's exactly why I said he was useless. Takamiya-kun is on the same track as other male macguffin characters

No, he is on the same track as FEMALE macguffin characters. Theoretically powerful, but ended up getting rescued by other people all the time. You are not demanding that he acts like a mcguffin character, you are demanding that he acts like a male stereotype. In WCW Honoka get treated like female fighters in shonen shows; look pretty but always need rescuing. And in power he is like Princess Zelda. He is too important to risk his life.

There is nothing wrong with what Honoka does, because his character type exists everywhere. They just all tend to be women, so you don't notice. I say it is fair that a man takes up the role for once.

[justsomeguy]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

No, he is on the same track as FEMALE macguffin characters. Theoretically powerful, but ended up getting rescued by other people all the time. You are not demanding that he acts like a mcguffin character, you are demanding that he acts like a male stereotype. In WCW Honoka get treated like female fighters in shonen shows; look pretty but always need rescuing. And in power he is like Princess Zelda. He is too important to risk his life.

There is nothing wrong with what Honoka does, because his character type exists everywhere. They just all tend to be women, so you don't notice. I say it is fair that a man takes up the role for once.

That's interesting, considering that the recent female macguffin characters I can think of are Ellie and Elizabeth, and both were competent and independent within the limitations of their power.

[Birdway]

Originally Posted by justsomeguy

That's interesting, considering that the recent female macguffin characters I can think of are Ellie and Elizabeth, and both were competent and independent within the limitations of their power.

Index from Toaru and Yuuji from Shana were competent and independent too but plot made them to get that treatment.

[mangamuscle]

EXTRA! EXTRA!

The vol. 1 disc has been released and it includes an special drawn in chibi style (remember how Kagari was drawn as a chibi when she carried Takamiya in the school gymnasium?) where they

Spoiler:

make fun of Tanpopo's name explain to Takamiya several facts about the WCW world, at the end Kagari tells him that if he has any other questions to read first this book (and gives him the WCW manga open in a page full of text).

Originally Posted by Tempest35

(After you recovered from... snu-snu and assuming she likes you enough not to break your legs.)

You mean like this?

[ZodiacBeast]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

No, he is on the same track as FEMALE macguffin characters. Theoretically powerful, but ended up getting rescued by other people all the time. You are not demanding that he acts like a mcguffin character, you are demanding that he acts like a male stereotype. In WCW Honoka get treated like female fighters in shonen shows; look pretty but always need rescuing. And in power he is like Princess Zelda. He is too important to risk his life.

There is nothing wrong with what Honoka does, because his character type exists everywhere. They just all tend to be women, so you don't notice. I say it is fair that a man takes up the role for once.

This is something that is interesting to note - Honoka (notice the feminine name) was originally conceptualized as a female character. In other words, this was a yuri manga until the last minute and the author changed his mind.

I think it's refreshing to see a man with feminine characteristics be put into these situations. I want to see how he grows.

I don't want to start and argument, but I wonder if people would complain if one girl couldn't kiss another girl on the lips?

[mangamuscle]

Originally Posted by ZodiacBeast

I don't want to start and argument, but I wonder if people would complain if one girl couldn't kiss another girl on the lips?

In Japan at least I do not think it is an issue for a manga or anime, but from what I can see from the sales of vol. 1 of Sakura Trick, yuri is not a sales magnet like incest or lolis have been for other series. ATM it is too early to know if femdom (or role reversal or tall/dark and bishoujo or whatever other name is used) is an element that drove WCW sales up, but if it did it is a more powerful sales magnet than yuri.

[ZodiacBeast]

Originally Posted by mangamuscle

In Japan at least I do not think it is an issue for a manga or anime, but from what I can see from the sales of vol. 1 of Sakura Trick, yuri is not a sales magnet like incest or lolis have been for other series. ATM it is too early to know if femdom (or role reversal or tall/dark and bishoujo or whatever other name is used) is an element that drove WCW sales up, but if it did it is a more powerful sales magnet than yuri.

I don't mind yuri (and am not into incest or lolis...unless they're entertaining) but the role reversal was a large part of what made this series interesting for me. Also wanting to see how Honoka becomes less of a damsel in distress and more of a badass and Ayaka to become less stone-faced and show a beautiful smile.

Hopefully the natural progression of this manga is a pair of badasses fighting back to back through thick and thin and they eventually gain their happy ending. This is too good to have some downer ending.

[Miraluka]

Originally Posted by ZodiacBeast

I don't want to start and argument, but I wonder if people would complain if one girl couldn't kiss another girl on the lips?

The subconcsious hipocresy will play the "Awww, she is so shy, kawaii" .

Just like if you have a male yandere will bash it to death but if the yandere is female people will love it.

Meh .

Originally Posted by mangamuscle

In Japan at least I do not think it is an issue for a manga or anime, but from what I can see from the sales of vol. 1 of Sakura Trick, yuri is not a sales magnet like incest or lolis have been for other series. ATM it is too early to know if femdom (or role reversal or tall/dark and bishoujo or whatever other name is used) is an element that drove WCW sales up, but if it did it is a more powerful sales magnet than yuri.

Incest isn't a magnet either, Imoucho had that and still flopped, and it even had yuri on it.

But IMO, that ghost bitch was a repelent to any potential buyer, so annoying that my friends wouldn't buy it even if it was uncensored.



Lolis? Now this could be a magnet if it is well played, but isn't a 100% sucess formula.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by justsomeguy

That's interesting, considering that the recent female macguffin characters I can think of are Ellie and Elizabeth, and both were competent and independent within the limitations of their power.

And yet as far as Elizabeth is concerned (can't say anything about Ellie as I don't know her), her major advantage is that NO ONE TRIES TO KILL HER.

How can you deem her an equal to Booker, when she is literally untargetable and no one even try to hurt her? It is too easy to be competent and independent when she doesn't actually need to defend herself.

[kujoe]

Originally Posted by Miraluka

Lolis? Now this could be a magnet if it is well played, but isn't a 100% sucess formula.

Looking at a few posts here ranging from outright praise to expressing criticism while being entertained, an enjoyable story should be considered a winning formula.

Sure, WCW uses similar tropes and has reversals of some of them, but in the end it's the fact that it can still be enjoyed by new viewers and manga readers alike that makes it the little success that it is. Hopefully, things can only go up from here.

[mangamuscle]

Originally Posted by kujoe

Sure, WCW uses similar tropes and has reversals of some of them, but in the end it's the fact that it can still be enjoyed by new viewers and manga readers alike that makes it the little success that it is. Hopefully, things can only go up from here.

I will have to disagree here. I also think that a good story is a must have for any story-telling media, but that is not enough for a success. I have seen recently quite a bit of animes which were nicely done and enjoyable that had miserable sales. Which makes sense that even though many people saw the entire series on TV, they were not moved to own the discs. You need either an excellent story, characters that somehow move the viewer or at the very least a gimmick (tickets for events or a nendroid figure do work). Lolis/incest/fan service are also gimmicks, but they have been done so frequently that it becomes harder and harder to work and sometimes backfire (like the example with the ghost girl).