(L) Akame ga kill [Manga]

[Shinji103]

Well, I did say I was out of the debate for the night, but Mentar is in such denial that I had to point out a few more things. >.> As it is, I'm not terribly interested in debating with all the ridiculous and unbudging denial over Esdeath being a monster, so I won't be too long here.......

Originally Posted by Mentar

First of all, thanks for the chapter reference. It's good to have something solid to base a discussion on.

I didn't directly reference the chapter because I didn't want to spend time trudging through the volumes to find it. I was already up late enough as it was. Eyes get heavy with sleepiness, you know.
And if you'd read the manga, I shouldn't have had to reference anything in the first place.

Unfortunately, the raw sites I frequent don't have this chapter anymore, but IIRC, the term used in the original was 劫掠 (pillage), which is terrible enough, but a "normal" reaction in wars in pre-modern areas. That's my point: I see a substantial difference about a commander in the context of a war who tells her soldiers to pillage a town (which has been a common punitive measure in the past) and someone who wantonly picks innocent civilians from the graves of their loved once to have their way with them. Esdeath does not do that.

No, that's not even the kanji that was used. And don't ask me to post the actual kanji used, I don't feel like going to all the trouble of looking it up over this.
Of course that's beside the point since the manga shows her soldiers raping the villagers, and it shows her watching the suffering, death, and devastation with a smile. She watched as her soldiers swept through the village and killed, tortured, and raped unarmed people. It literally showed the soldiers ripping a mother away from her child and rape her in front of her child. (thank god the author didn't go so far as to show children being raped or tortured, nevermind my reaction, it may have triggered an ugly backlash) Have you actually read the manga??? I haven't read it all, and I still know more than you.
There's no getting out of it; she ordered the slaughter and rape of a whole village as a reward to her soldiers and enjoyed it. You can't deny it, and it's sad to see you try. There are much less vicious and vile characters in anime who deserve your defense.

Like I said, I'll give you the sadist, she undoubtedly is one. My point is that unlike other groups, her enemies are "legit". As in, she is no sociopath who wantonly terrorizes anyone, she "only" does that to

1) Opponents in a war
2) Irregulars like NR, who are murderers of their own and attacking those she is supposed to protect

To my knowledge, she does not act like this towards the Empire's civilians. Why is that important? Because it means that she would most likely be generally capable of remaining within acceptable bounds should the Empire actually change.

Soooooo, your reasoning is that it's okay to brutally torture people as long as they're defeated, captured enemies?
I think you have some issues with your rationalization............
Why do you think we have things like the Geneva Convention? Just because they don't have the Geneve Convention in Akame ga Kill!, DOES NOT make torture any more justified. It's not justified AT ALL.
And of course, you're again ignoring the whole ordering the rape, torture, and murder of innocent villagers bit. And don't even try to justify it by saying they were connected to the enemy. Whether or not they were connected to the enemy, that excuse is pathetic and does not work.

He has established her as someone who has not vouched for the weak in the past, because it has been against the reasoning she has been taught by her father.

Wow.........denial is so ugly.....................

And this is exactly what I believe the real overarching point of the story to be: The story has placed Tatsumi in the unique position to change Esdeath's mind on this. This is the entire POINT of the story.

*sigh*

*snip*

A bunch more stuff that will only happen if they gut Esdeath's character.

So, in the end, it boils down to the question what Esdeath is: The Esdeath haters see her as a final boss, a horrible enemy to be punished and defeated. I see her as an agent of change, giving Tatsumi the chance to do exactly what he always wanted: To make the Empire a fairer place to be. And not by butchering around, but by convincing a former enemy (Esdeath) to change.

Let's see how it goes.

If Esdeath really does go yandere/yangire next chapter/sometime, I will laugh at this so hard........


As has been said, if you like a character, even if they're a vile, psychotic sadist, that's one thing and your choice. But you're all up in arms in your denial of what Esdeath really is and trying to make her some kind of would-be good guy when she's a violent monster. That's your problem. And personally, it makes me lose faith in humanity to see this kind of thing, fictional or not. It's like watching fans of serial killers worship the disgusting gutterscum.

Now that I've pointed out the glaring flaws, I'll be on my way not worshipping scumbags. So don't expect a response unless you overlook something obvious again. >.>

[crunchytaco]

I have to agree with Shinji103. Esdeath is one of my two favorites, but to deny her nature is to not truly love her character. But even she blatantly said to the Prime Minister she's only nice to her subordinates because it benefits her in war! And no she wasn't be a tsundere about it. Do you know who else says those things?

Psychopaths who use people as their tools. Esdeath is the perfect con artist.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by Mentar

First of all, thanks for the chapter reference. It's good to have something solid to base a discussion on.

Unfortunately, the raw sites I frequent don't have this chapter anymore, but IIRC, the term used in the original was 劫掠 (pillage), which is terrible enough, but a "normal" reaction in wars in pre-modern areas. That's my point: I see a substantial difference about a commander in the context of a war who tells her soldiers to pillage a town (which has been a common punitive measure in the past) and someone who wantonly picks innocent civilians from the graves of their loved once to have their way with them. Esdeath does not do that.

In the flashback, we clearly see Esdeath's soldiers grabbing a woman by her hair with a slavering grin, after which we see three soldiers standing around something with a human leg, and we see the same woman crying with a dead look in her eyes, while her child looks on. 1 +1 +1= 3. This is the sort of thing Esdeath was watching with a smile, while she mocked the people whose families were being violated.

She didn't even do this for any military purpose, she just wanted to amuse herself. Then after the fact, she let them go to go and start more rebellions. Don't try and justify it by saying it was in the context of any kind of military actions.

Like I said, I'll give you the sadist, she undoubtedly is one. My point is that unlike other groups, her enemies are "legit". As in, she is no sociopath who wantonly terrorizes anyone

Her enemies being legit is totally meaningless in the craphole that is the Empire. For example, everything Wild Hunt is doing is perfectly legal as well.

Night Raid are soldiers for the Revolutionary Army, which is allied with other countries, and since the Empire is at war with those countries, Night Raid can be counted as enemy soldiers, meaning the stuff they're doing is legit as well. Pretty much everyone is doing something legit in this manga, don't use that as an excuse to justify anything.

To my knowledge, she does not act like this towards the Empire's civilians. Why is that important? Because it means that she would most likely be generally capable of remaining within acceptable bounds should the Empire actually change.

We know that she works in the capital's torture chambers as a hobby. Do you think everyone in there actually committed a real crime? The only difference between her and Shura is that she lets the rank and files pick up the people she wants to torture instead of going out on the town and collecting them directly like he does.

He has established her as someone who has not vouched for the weak in the past, because it has been against the reasoning she has been taught by her father.

You say this as if she's actually changed from this reasoning at all.

And this is exactly what I believe the real overarching point of the story to be: The story has placed Tatsumi in the unique position to change Esdeath's mind on this. This is the entire POINT of the story.

You think the entire point of the story is for Tatsumi to change Esdeath, who will then change the Empire? That's... quite farfetched.

How will Tatsumi bring about this change in Esdeath? He already tried, and gave it up as a bad job.

As of currently, she has no interest in making the Empire a better place. In fact, making it a better place runs counter to everything she wants to do, since in a better Empire, she can't go around torturing people and fomenting rebellion anymore.

The story will end by the Empire having to change from within. And based on my experiences with Takahiro's storywriting, I genuinely believe that Esdeath will be the agent of this change, and Tatsumi will be the one whose efforts will bring along the change within Esdeath. This will make him much more of a hero than being a sword-slashing murderer could ever be.

You keep mentioning the bolded part, but I just don't see it. Esdeath doesn't bear much resemblance to Momoyo or Shinra, nor does her relationship with Tatsumi bear much resemblance to Momoyo/Yamato or Shinra/Ren.

If anyone is going to change the Empire from within, it's someone like Budou. He not only has a higher rank and more influence than Esdeath, but unlike her, he actually cares about the state of the Empire and is an active enemy of the Prime Minster. I have high hopes for Wave and even Kurome. I haven't seen a single thing from Esdeath that would lead me to think she would do anything like that.

Esdeath has the power _and the authority_ to facilitate this change. I expect her to eventually turn on the Prime Minister and play the primary role to eradicate the corrupt clique in power.

She doesn't have the will or the desire to do that. She's never had any interest in the Empire's politics and the sum total of her involvement in that is being the Prime Minister's assassin, getting rid of his political opponents.

Where would this sudden desire for change come from anyway? It runs counter to everything she believes and desires. For what purpose? She made it clear from the get go that Tatsumi wasn't going to change her, she was going to change him.

He has never had any desire to have a relationship with her and now that he's seen her torture and kill his friends, that becomes even less likely.

First developments in this direction have already happened, and I expect them to continue.

What developments are these?

[ellifeedn]

Like I said before, the only reason why Esdeath is in love with Tatsumi is because "the author said so" just like in his past works. If he didn't push his fetish we wouldn't be discussing all this.

[Shinji103]

Originally Posted by Endscape

If anyone is going to change the Empire from within, it's someone like Budou. He not only has a higher rank and more influence than Esdeath, but unlike her, he actually cares about the state of the Empire and is an active enemy of the Prime Minster. I have high hopes for Wave and even Kurome.

Unfortunately, this makes Budo prime beef for a character death, regardless of how strong he is. We've seen it before in anime, and if the PM decides to eliminate Budo, I seriously doubt it'll be a fair face-to-face duel.
Wave and Kurome would need to make some serious jumps up both the chain of command and strength ranking to make any changes, though at the very least Wave has the will to do so. I loved seeing him put the hurt on Shura.

[Fenrisulfr]

First off, poor Raba man, I cringed at the latest chapter even though none of the other chapters remotely affected me as much. You just don't do that to a guy.

Secondly, I seriously doubt Esdeath will make it out of this story alive. She killed hundreds of thousands and enjoys war so much that she purposely incites more flames of vengeance and retaliation in survivors. She loves torturing people and never once reflects on her actions. Even if she somehow sides with Tatsumi she would die one way or another. The girl is psycho and although I'd ship her and Tatsumi under different circumstances there's no denying her nature.

Lastly, Budo does reminds me of Roland from madan so he will probably die while trying to kill the prime minister or something.

@Mentar it was actually 蹂躙 for that part.

[Mentar]

@Shinji103: Seriously man, take a deeeeep breath and relax a bit. If you can. You're hyperventilating as if Esdeath had been doing a Wild Hunt on your own family. It's a fictional story.

I've laid out my interpretation of the story development, and my predictions about what is going to happen. It's an original story, and I have no more information than anybody else. If you insist on your reading, that's fine. We'll eventually find out who is going to be correct anyway. And if you feel like denigrating me as "scumbag-worshipper" for my theory, then be my guest.

I will however point out that unlike all our pitchfork-wielding Esdeath-haters, it's been my predictions about her that have been pretty much consistently correct. Sorry for that.


@Endscape: The developments I'm referring to (and which I had been predicting) are:

1) A wedge will gradually be pushed, separating Esdeath from the rest of the Empire. This wedge is Syura and his Wild Hunt.

2) Eventually the Jaegers and Night Raid will be fighting the same enemies. This is what has just happened for the first time (Wild Hunt). Wave, as one of Esdese's man, is fully committed against Wild Hunt, and Esdese didn't overrule him.

3) Esdeath will fight Tatsumi again and defeat him, but not kill him.

4) Esdeath learns about Tatsumi's Night Raid background, and still not kill him, but rather protect him.

All of this has taken place now, and none of the "she will kill him, torture him, rape him" doomsaying has. And I've now made several more easily verifiable predictions. How about you do the same?

[Shinji103]

Originally Posted by Mentar

@Shinji103: Seriously man, take a deeeeep breath and relax a bit. If you can. You're hyperventilating as if Esdeath had been doing a Wild Hunt on your own family. It's a fictional story.

A deep breath? No thank you. Like I specifically said, I get this way when I see people try and justify vile scum in their crimes against humanity, fictional or not. It's quite disgusting to see such twisted logic

I've laid out my interpretation of the story development, and my predictions about what is going to happen. It's an original story, and I have no more information than anybody else. If you insist on your reading, that's fine. We'll eventually find out who is going to be correct anyway. And if you feel like denigrating me as "scumbag-worshipper" for my theory, then be my guest.

I certainly wouldn't degenerate you as anything, since you're not an actual fan of actual serial killers. But your efforts to rationalize Esdeath's evil are still disturbing.

I will however point out that unlike all our pitchfork-wielding Esdeath-haters, it's been my predictions about her that have been pretty much consistently correct. Sorry for that.

And this makes her any less evil or sadistic...........how?
The ony way you turn out right and she sides with Tatsumi is through terrible writing. She's been established as an evil sadist who supports the PM so she can torture people, and to side with Tatsumi and Night Raid will contradict everything about her up to this point.

All of this has taken place now, and none of the "she will kill him, torture him, rape him" doomsaying has. And I've now made several more easily verifiable predictions. How about you do the same?

Why should he have to? How does any of this make Esdeath less of a muderous sadist? Because you make some preidctions that turn out to be right, all of the evil she's done is made better?

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by Mentar

@Endscape: The developments I'm referring to (and which I had been predicting) are:

1) A wedge will gradually be pushed, separating Esdeath from the rest of the Empire. This wedge is Syura and his Wild Hunt.

This is still something in progress, and I can understand your reasoning at least so if it actually gets to the stage where Esdeath breaks with the Empire, I can compliment you then.

Personally I doubt Esdeath will significantly break with the Empire over this. The fact that under the Prime Minister's rule is the only place she can satiate herself hasn't changed, and with Budou openly gunning for him the Prime Minister can ill afford to lose Esdeath. Esdeath herself wouldn't be happy if Budou were to take charge of the place, no more fomenting rebellion when the man in charge wants peace.

The Prime Minister is more likely to sell his son and Wild Hunt out to Esdeath than lose her support.

2) Eventually the Jaegers and Night Raid will be fighting the same enemies. This is what has just happened for the first time (Wild Hunt). Wave, as one of Esdese's man, is fully committed against Wild Hunt, and Esdese didn't overrule him.

Not something all that amazing. Wave was set up as being the most decent person in the Jaegers since the beginning, and there was the obvious parallel with Tatsumi.

3) Esdeath will fight Tatsumi again and defeat him, but not kill him.

4) Esdeath learns about Tatsumi's Night Raid background, and still not kill him, but rather protect him.

These aren't even predictions at all, considering she didn't lose interest in him or kill him when he tried to recruit her, and she's been talking about making him over to her specifications since day 1.

Seriously, nothing to get excited about.

All of this has taken place now, and none of the "she will kill him, torture him, rape him" doomsaying has. And I've now made several more easily verifiable predictions. How about you do the same?

None of your 'predictions' have explained how Esdeath is going to suddenly decide to drop doing everything she likes and enjoys (torture, murder and war) to bring change to the Empire.

Just because she won't let Wild Hunt do they want doesn't mean she's going to go after the source of the problem (the corruption of the Empire). She's more likely to kill them (or order them to leave her subordinates alone, like she already did) than that.

Her problem with the Wild Hunt is actually on a different wavelength than Wave or even Kurome. Wave is upset about Bors and Ran, but he's also upset that the Empire allows people like them to do as they please.

Esdeath is just angry they messed with her people. If it wasn't for that, she wouldn't care. That's hardly going to lead to her wanting the Empire to change.

[Fwarlord]

Originally Posted by Endscape

As of currently, she has no interest in making the Empire a better place. In fact, making it a better place runs counter to everything she wants to do, since in a better Empire, she can't go around torturing people and fomenting rebellion anymore.

It depend on your definition of "a better place". If you mean a country where the authorities are completely sincere, respectful and non-violent toward not only each and every one of its people but also every single being outside their country regardless of their action and behavior then it's a "Yes", she won't be able to do anything she likes in such country. But let alone the fact a country like that didn't and can never exist in our history, the idea of it existing is just too unreal, even in a fairy tale. Regardless of the eras, every country must have an armed force to maintain their order and peace, deal with their problems inside and outside. So as long as they can behave themselves, people with excellent skill like Esdese will never have to worry about being jobless. And with the bordering countries being the empire's enemies, I don't see how she will have to worry about not having opponents to fight.

[Key Board]

Personally, I think Esdesse isn't so hard to guess

She believes in strength, period.
If things don't go your way, it's simply because you weren't strong enough

if she is defeated by Tatsumi and Tatsumi has other ideas for the Empire, she will fall in line
Because he has proven her strength by defeating her
Because it's the right of winner to rule over the loser
Should he require her help in fulfilling said goals, she will obey

There, you don't even have to change a thing about her philosophy and moral compass

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by Fwarlord

It depend on your definition of "a better place". If you mean a country where the authorities are completely sincere, respectful and non-violent toward not only each and every one of its people but also every single being outside their country regardless of their action and behavior then it's a "Yes", she won't be able to do anything she likes in such country. But let alone the fact a country like that didn't and can never exist in our history, the idea of it existing is just too unreal, even in a fairy tale. Regardless of the eras, every country must have an armed force to maintain their order and peace, deal with their problems inside and outside. So as long as they can behave themselves, people with excellent skill like Esdese will never have to worry about being jobless. And with the bordering countries being the empire's enemies, I don't see how she will have to worry about not having opponents to fight.

No decently run country is going to employ Esdeath as a general when she delights in ordering the rape and murder of civilians, fomenting rebellion, causing wars and torturing for fun.

[Ramero]

It depends on how Tatsumi can melts her heart.. Even she's soft on him doesn't mean she will skip NR from her kill list or until a bigger challenge awaits. We haven't see her make a proper strategy to crush the enemies and of course she already lost her strategist, Ran.

NR strategist is Akame, Lubbock and Najenda since three of them know about the Empire inside out since they have a position at the past, Akame as assassin while Najenda as general and Lubbock probably as Najenda's loyal soldier but in general we haven't see the strategist at Empire and Revolutionaries itself.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Guys, guys. Let’s all lighten up a bit, shall we? This discussion about Esdeath have been so intense for several pages. How about talking about Lubbock’s poor balls?

Originally Posted by Fenrisulfr

First off, poor Raba man, I cringed at the latest chapter even though none of the other chapters remotely affected me as much. You just don't do that to a guy.

Unfortunately, it seems that kind of thinking is the reason why Shura (and the author) did it.

Raping and torturing in front of the grave of the dead husband/father? You just don’t do that to a beautiful widow and her lovely daughter…. BAM! Shura & his pals do exactly that, and even killed them as the icing on the cake.

Instantly teleporting the MC and his friend right into the palace where they can be ganged up by the uber-powerful top enemy generals & lieutenants? You just don’t do that in a shounen battle manga….BAM! Shura done it again.

That’s what I love about Shura .

[Tenzen12]

Originally Posted by Endscape

No decently run country is going to employ Esdeath as a general when she delights in ordering the rape and murder of civilians, fomenting rebellion, causing wars and torturing for fun.

Even decently run country can't live just out of ideals. Goal justifies means especially in wars.

[hamazura]

can someone pls kill this guy? i 7ucking hate him now
i dont feel anything after schere,brat,chelsea,susanoo death but this guy isnt even dead yet and im so 7uking mad

[Key Board]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Guys, guys. Let’s all lighten up a bit, shall we? This discussion about Esdeath have been so intense for several pages. How about talking about Lubbock’s poor balls?

Unfortunately, it seems that kind of thinking is the reason why Shura (and the author) did it.

Raping and torturing in front of the grave of the dead husband/father? You just don’t do that to a beautiful widow and her lovely daughter…. BAM! Shura & his pals do exactly that, and even killed them as the icing on the cake.

Watch Esdesse cut off Tatsumi's legs so he can't run away
but you can't do that to a love interest!

note: even if this happens it still won't prevent what I said earlier from happening
It's that kind of manga

http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...postcount=5191

[Kiltias]

hmmmmm......

You know.....
I wonder if Dorothea's comment might be more than just the Author giving some "Harem" to Tatsumi.
The part with drinking his blood having awakened her sexual desires.

I'm just thinking perhaps there is a reason story wise for that.
Not saying these are the cases but just as examples:
Mein mentioned she began to like Tatsumi when he obtained Incursio or how by chance this all started immediately after Spectator rejected him causing some damage to his head.

[nfsac]

Originally Posted by hamazura

can someone pls kill this guy? i 7ucking hate him now
i dont feel anything after schere,brat,chelsea,susanoo death but this guy isnt even dead yet and im so 7uking mad

Yes the difference on fate will be used even further by Syura to make Lubbock hate Tatsumi to a critical point.

One thing I observed while reading the comments about the situation is that nobody seems to find it a problem with the two girls wanting to Rape Tatsumi
Tv Tropes put this text about this idea:

Rape is a special kind of Evil, beyond kicking the dog or any of the other acts of villainy in media. But there seems to be one exception: when the victim is a man and the attacker is a woman. Men are stereotyped as constantly wanting sex and of being stronger in general than women. Therefore, the idea that the man could have either not consented to sex with a woman or been incapable of fighting off a female aggressor if he did refuse sex is simply not taken seriously. Another commonly-held notion that the idea of female-on-male rape challenges is the false idea that since men have erections, they enjoy the sex, and hence is not rape or not as traumatic as any other kind of rape.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...pefemaleOnMale

[Iron Maw]

Originally Posted by Hollownerox

Regarding the whole Esdeath topic, while I can understand that you guys find her interesting and ship her with Tatsumi, I still find it kind of unbelievable that there are still people claiming she is simply misunderstood.

It's been stated quite bluntly that Esdeath is a natural sadist, she wasn't twisted into some kind of monster by circumstance she was always one to begin with.

Eh, I can't quite agree this one of reasons being that there is another character who is similar to Esdese that counters this: Schere.

She herself had admitted to being a natural born psychopath, and weren't for a normal upbringing she could have easily turned out just like Esdese. Furthermore as shown in her flashback, Esdese's tribal culture did have a huge impact on her, there would be no point in showing it if didn't. Sure might she have had slight tenderiaces towards violence, but that doesn't mean her life was predestined to turn out this way and those inclinations couldn't be suppressed like with Schere.

The truth of matter is that Esdese isn't completely heartless as shown countless times, just selective who she choose to care about. That alone means she not entirely far gone or without an ounce compassion. Her beliefs as narrow as they are wedge in from her past experiences and not a case of her being evil for lolz. Nothing has come close to contradict those ideals in her eyes.