Under the Dog

[Flower]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

Under the Dog producer, Hiroaki Yura, just did an AMA session on Reddit today (Sept 4, 2014). There were some interesting questions and answers that gave insight into how the anime industry works as a whole.

Working within this forum's rules, here are some of the noteworthy Q&As:

Thanks for this selection of questions and answers. The specific project aside I found reading these interesting.

[Guardian Enzo]

Originally Posted by Flower

Thanks for this selection of questions and answers. The specific project aside I found reading these interesting.

Frankly, I find the interview far more interesting than the potential anime. He says much which lays bare the crisis facing the industry today, but all of this is in support of a project which, by the looks of it, is completely in-line with the stuff he says he doesn't want to be forced to make. It's an odd scenario.

[TinyRedLeaf]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Anyway, I think the main point here is that doing things this way they get to do what they want instead of what a production committee wants.

Someone on the Anime News Network forums made a pretty sharp observation that exchanging a production committee for crowd-funding does not actually make any difference: Either way, you're still subject to the whims of your investors.

Originally Posted by configspace

In any case... production committees exist for a reason. If they funded it they would also need to pay out $232,000 x 26 ($6,032,000) just for the animation production alone, plus pre-production and marketing and business negotiations and other misc. expenses. But did you know that studios and creators themselves can also be part of the production committee, *IF* they have the money to at least partially fund their own creations. Sunrise is a primary committee member for most of their creations.

Of course there are strings attached. He who pays the piper calls the tune. But how is that any different from crowdfunding? They are offering a tune and you decide if you want to pay them for it. There are strings attached by backers too, as all exchanges/trades comes with strings attached. Ironically the same backers eventually resemble production committee themselves whenever dissatisfaction arises or whenever choices are offered by the project.

As many here rightly observed, the premise of this project isn't actually very different from a number of action anime out there revolving around pretty girls with guns. The fact that it made its Kickstarter goal probably says more about the type of anime international audiences like, than it does about the actual viability of this funding model.

I highly suspect, for example, that setting up a Kickstarter for Kino no Tabi is going to be any easier than begging for money from a production committee.

But on a day-to-day, operational level, there may perhaps be greater creative freedom for the artists and animators involved in a project like UTD. And if it can contribute, in some small way, to better wages for the creators in the long run, then I'd say it's worthy cause.

Overall, it'll be like a proof-of-concept. In which case, every small success is worth celebrating.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

As many here rightly observed, the premise of this project isn't actually very different from a number of action anime out there revolving around pretty girls with guns. The fact that it made its Kickstarter goal probably says more about the type of anime international audiences like, than it does about the actual viability of this funding model.

How many true "girls with guns" anime do we have right now actually? I can only think of old titles like Dirty Pair and Gunsmith Cats, and perhaps a few more recent ones like Noir and Canaan. But today I don't see anything quite like that anymore as LN-like elements and moe chara designs are more integrated into everything. Anyway, this is supposed to be a project based on a script from 1997 if I remember correctly, and considering the overview and the trailer, I would expect the final result to be sort of a blend of Noir and Canaan, which is okay in my book. I want to see an anime like that. It's definitely not artsy anime, but it's not the same thing that's made today either.

But on a day-to-day, operational level, there may perhaps be greater creative freedom for the artists and animators involved in a project like UTD. And if it can contribute, in some small way, to better wages for the creators in the long run, then I'd say it's worthy cause.

Like I said in my preview post, you may or may not like the final product, but I think this is more about being allowed to work more freely, which also means having better labor conditions: more money, less hectic schedules, that sort of thing.

[kuromitsu]

It's not about whether it's "'true' girls with guns"(??) anime or not - it's that it's a flashy action series starring a cute girl kicking ass and whatnot. If you're into that good for you, but based on the trailer (and that's all we have to go on for the moment) it's as generic and "typical anime" as it can be, and it's even seemingly tailored the casual western audience's expectations of what "anime" is which just makes it even more boring and generic. (The talk of Akira in the interview doesn't help, good thing he didn't add Spirited Away or Oshii's Ghost in the Shell...)

When Yuasa Masaaki did a Kickstarter he did it for an anime that really wouldn't have gotten financed otherwise because of the story and Yuasa's peculiar style. But this? I imagine if an American company hasn't thrown money at them yet it's because they, too, think it's so generic it won't sell. Yes, I understand what he's saying about production politics and whatnot (then again, isn't this pretty much the same everywhere? like, wow, a music company is in it to promote its product - am I supposed to be surprised? ), and it would be great if that changed for the better but 1) if he's against generic shows why is he making a generic show, and 2) I fail to see how crowdfunding is the answer.

(Btw, regardless of how and why and how much they sell, good and intelligent and/or unique anime still get to be made... and they don't need the creators being obnoxious and going "no LN/moe shit in here!!" to be good.)

But good luck to him, it's not like I want him to fail or anything. I just wish this looked like something I'd want to support.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

it's that it's a flashy action series starring a cute girl kicking ass and whatnot.

That definition is way too broad. You get attractive action girls in all sort of shows, from the likes of Hidan no Aria to something like Noir, or even things like Ghost is the Shell, for example. Some are LN shit, others are pretty complex works. Heck, even the cute or attractive girls alone can be pretty different depending their characterizations and designs. All in all, I think writing this thing off just because it has action and pretty girls is pretty silly to me, but to each their own I guess.

[IceHism]

Why do they keep talking about LN stuff but not anything to do with VNs or Mangas. Makes zero sense to me. Some LNs are good and some are bad. Same with every other medium.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by IceHism

Some LNs are good

Yeah but those aren't the ones that get adapted to anime the most.

[IceHism]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Yeah but those aren't the ones that get adapted to anime the most.

list some lns you think are good

And please, you are acting like good VNs get adapted most of the time. Tell me when they adapt something like cross channel, tsukihime, mahoyo, subahibi, muv luv alternative(not total eclipse), kikokugai, or dies irae.

[Zoel]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Yeah but those aren't the ones that get adapted to anime the most.

Adapt the rest of the Full Metal Panic novels and I'll be happy.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Yeah but those aren't the ones that get adapted to anime the most.

How is that any different from any other source material?

Originally Posted by totoum

Though it does differ from LN in that there's no male protag in there someplace, LNs almost always have a male protag surrounded by girls.

If you ask me, taking away a male protagonist just makes the ratio of girls to guys even more onesided.

[Kazu-kun]

The ratio doesn't matter as much as who gets to be an actual character with a proper goal and agency. Most anime girls this day don't fall into that category, so if they can at least show something different in that respect, I'd feel satisfied.

[Dextro]

I for one am rather hopeful to see what comes out of this one. I can agree that the premise doesn't sound particularly original but that's only if we're comparing the show to the entire history of anime and not the last couple of years. When was the last time that a female lead didn't get tied up with a second male lead that served as a viewpoint and straight man to the "weird" girl antics? Of the top of my head I can think of Jormungand and Canaan but the type of show was a bit different I wreckon.

Also there's a major difference between a committee and kickstarter backers: the latter aren't usually directly involved in the production process. Most of the times they are hardly involved at all! The site has worked wonders as a way to finance full fledged ideas, it's actually in nurturing and evolving interesting but unfinalized concepts that the model has failed.

Anyway I'm not expecting a masterpiece out of this, only proof that audiences outside of Japan can be seen as a target market to Japanese animation companies (and the same goes for Santa Company as well).

[bastek66]

Originally Posted by IceHism

Why do they keep talking about LN stuff but not anything to do with VNs or Mangas. Makes zero sense to me. Some LNs are good and some are bad. Same with every other medium.

Because it's bunch of morons who think anime needs saving.

[bakato]

Under The Dog Anime Kickstarter Campaign Raises US$878,028.

[IceHism]

Originally Posted by bastek66

Because it's bunch of morons who think anime needs saving.

I can understand if they want to make more original anime with more creative control.

But they are acting like stuff found in LNs aren't found in VNs or mangas and that the former is cancer while the latter two arent while they don't even go into explaining why despite the fact that the only thing that separates them.... Is medium.

[Guardian Enzo]

Some people look at the collective body of anime that comes from LNs - which is undeniably a greater and greater percentage of the total - and see something that's substantially weaker (less ambitious, more formulaic, with flat characters) than the body of anime adapted from manga. Some don't. Whether you do or not is generally consistent with whether you believe there's anything wrong with the anime medium on the whole at the moment, and that's not a coincidence.

[ACertainStark]

If you pledge through paypal, do you get the same rewards?

Originally Posted by bastek66

#keepanimealive is so stupid that it hurts.
Also whole this project is so generic that makes me want to rewatch Birdy.

Have to agree. I look forward to this, but that hashtag is stupid.

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

Some people look at the collective body of anime that comes from LNs - which is undeniably a greater and greater percentage of the total - and see something that's substantially weaker (less ambitious, more formulaic, with flat characters) than the body of anime adapted from manga. Some don't. Whether you do or not is generally consistent with whether you believe there's anything wrong with the anime medium on the whole at the moment, and that's not a coincidence.

There's truth in this, but TBH if there's indeed something wrong with the anime medium on the whole at the moment* the root of the problem is definitely not what gets adapted and what doesn't (which is one reason why I'm seriously side-eyeing this whole ~save anime!!!~ business), and perhaps not even how it gets made. To be all clichéd and boring, TV shows are a business. Sometimes there are individuals or groups who, for various reasons, are willing to take a risk to produce something that likely won't make be a financial success (and all deities bless them for that), but other than that? Studios/producers/etc. want to make money, and I see nothing inherently wrong with that.

The reason why we have so many LN adaptations nowadays (or, to widen our scope, adaptations of popular mainstream manga such as Shingeki no kyojin, or the more mainstream kind of niche manga such as the string of school romance shoujo stuff we've been getting for a while) is that you can reliably count on these being financially successful due to the easily accessible content, and the built-in fanbase generating hype and eventual sales. Sure, a show can be successful not necessarily only by the way of BD sales but also by drumming up interest in the source material or the official goods. Still, for less merchandise-minded shows and/or originals BD sales are pretty much the only way to generate a profit. Except BDs tend to be insanely expensive, and the anime market is still mostly fandom-oriented which 1) doesn't leave non-mainstream shows a lot of opportunities to be noticed, 2) keeps domestic releases functioning as overpriced collectors' items, deterring many potential casual buyers. (There's also the problem with the availability of TV shows, since not everything airs everywhere.)

(And in the meanwhile, as far as I'm aware overseas sales continue to be a teeny tiny slice of the overall pie, and in their fear of Japanese fans reverse importing the cheaper overseas releases, companies keep introducing measures that do absolutely nothing to help the situation.)

Basically, what I'm trying to say is that all the LN adaptations are not the problem, they're the symptom of a complex problem that runs very deep.


*Although it's not like there's a mystical "good old times" when we had nothing but worthy series in each season... there were always tons of mediocre/formulaic stuff, and great/unusual/interesting shows were always in the minority. The mediocre/formulaic stuff just followed different trends in different times.

[SkoolRumble4Ya]

I'll probably check this out but fuck that producer opinion.