(L) Garo: Seal of Flames

[juve]

People hating on Alfonso because Leon was wrong.
Pretty pathetic.

[kuromitsu]

OK, what?

Originally Posted by thundrakkon

And again, Leon was wrong, and he had to be stopped... Just not the way Alfonso did it. Alfonso was acting all high and mighty, couldn't stop the monster by himself, and wasn't even helping Leon.

Did we watch the same episode? He single-handedly defeated the monster!

Originally Posted by thundrakkon

Again, Alfonso's dad was directly responsible for Leon's mom's burning alive. It's Alfonso's dad ordering the burning alive of Leon's mom,

Context aside, that is Alfonso's fault how exactly?

Originally Posted by thundrakkon

while Alfonso eats popcorn to enjoy the show,

...remind me, how old is Alfonso again? (To make it easier: he's 20. Only three years older than Leon. He was three years old.)

Originally Posted by thundrakkon

and then tells Leon, the son of burning mom, to man up and get over it. Alfonso would have been better served to respond in a way that was not so insensitive and full of himself.

No, he told Leon, the son of burning mom, that turning into a flaming giant Cerberos and destroying the town killing people out of angst, while ignoring the giant monster who is also up and about, and the evil mastermind behind it all, is not exactly what being the Golden Knight is supposed to be about. Leon had a legitimate reason for angsting, but he also had a job and a responsibility.

Originally Posted by juve

People hating on Alfonso because Leon was wrong.
Pretty pathetic.

How dare Alfonso do the right thing while our hero has a BSOD, right?

[G147]

Originally Posted by thundrakkon

No one said Leon is perfect, and people already have posted why Leon acts the way he does. You're comparing a mature adult in German versus an immature teenager who has no purpose in life besides the fact his mom was burned at the stake for people who hated her... the same people who he is supposed to protect.

And again, Leon was wrong, and he had to be stopped... Just not the way Alfonso did it. Alfonso was acting all high and mighty, couldn't stop the monster by himself, and wasn't even helping Leon. Again, Alfonso's dad was directly responsible for Leon's mom's burning alive. It's Alfonso's dad ordering the burning alive of Leon's mom, while Alfonso eats popcorn to enjoy the show, and then tells Leon, the son of burning mom, to man up and get over it. Alfonso would have been better served to respond in a way that was not so insensitive and full of himself.

Btw, Alfonso is the spoiled brat. Don't start flaming posters, B214.

No one ever said Leon had to be perfect, i'm just can't tolerate the fact that people just come along and say Alfonso should fall, he should die, etc, just because they don't like what he did.

Also don't use being a teenager as an excused. Yes Leon is 17, but does that mean he can't think for himself. In Episode 4, Leon even taught a child to forget about avenging his father and even saw what happened to the child who was so caught in vengeance yet now he couldn't do it himself. If people were to say Alfonso was acting high and almighty, how is Leon any better himself. If there's anything, it's just hypocrisy from Leon, telling others to forget vengeance yet he himself couldn't.

Alfonso is a spoiled brat, he acts high and almighty, are you serious? Did you try think about being in Alfonso's place. Alfonso had the chance to rescue his mother first, yet he opted to put that aside, even with Leon's offer and protect the people first. Of course, he would chastise Leon for forgetting his duty cause Alfonso already had to toss aside his own personal feelings for others, not only that but to keep the promise he made with his master, Rafael, that is to protect people, and yet the one who is helping you is doing the exact opposite of you. Who can accept that? If you were Alfonso, would you just go smiling and say Leon don't worry, i don't blame you, lets forget about this and get along well again.

Alfonso's father only ordered to burn Anna because Mendoza placed a curse on the King and push the blame to Anna. He even lied that the only way the curse can be lifted is to burn Anna to death. And once again here you go with the popcorn bullshit. Was he enjoying it, was he eating popcorn. This is what i don't like, people spouting such nonsense just for the sake of spouting hate comments.

Yes maybe Alfonso was being harsh to Leon, but that's also because Alfonso had great expectation from Leon. Even after he took the armor away and claimed Leon no longer has the right to don it, he is still willing to take on Leon's challenge should Leon wants to take back the armor. That's why he was further disappointed when Leon just walk away, Leon already given up without trying. Alfonso isn't heartless, he even doubted himself if he is able to chastise Leon if he was at Leon's situation.

[thundrakkon]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

Did we watch the same episode? He single-handedly defeated the monster!

That's after he took the golden armor. He was not doing too well before that, and suddenly he is the best thing ever.

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

Context aside, that is Alfonso's fault how exactly?

Alfonso's father killed (indirectly, well, ok ordering the killing is kind of direct) Leon's mother. Alfonso did not have to right to chastise Leon to get over his mom... at least not in the way he did. He could have said other things that would have seemed more compassionate.

It's really a matter of perspective. You have yours, and I have mine. Alfonso really rubbed me the wrong way this episode, and I was perfectly fine with him before.

@G147
I really had no problems with Alfonso before this episode. I actually welcomed him as a nice addition to the group. However, this episode really changed that perspective from the tone of his voice to what he said. He kicked the guy in the mud, essentially. After he found out his mother died and retracted his thoughts, it was a bit too late, since it was after the fact, and only because he lost his mom as well. He spouted his ideologies, then went "oops, I might not have been any better myself in his shoes." Yeah, a little too little too late, since the damage is done.

Originally Posted by G147

Yes maybe Alfonso was being harsh to Leon, but that's also because Alfonso had great expectation from Leon.

Ok, Alfonso has no right to be upset at Leon for not living up to Alfonso's expectations. That's an image that Alfonso projected on Leon. The only blame there is Alfonso himself.

Originally Posted by G147

Even after he took the armor away and claimed Leon no longer has the right to don it, he is still willing to take on Leon's challenge should Leon wants to take back the armor. That's why he was further disappointed when Leon just walk away, Leon already given up without trying.

Yeah, after totally demoralizing and taking the only thing of value to an emotional unstable teenager in the depths of depression, Alfonso gets upset at Leon and essentially called him a coward. Nice... How much more shame was Alfonso going to put Leon in? Leon was in no state to fight at that moment, and he would have definitely lost to Alfonso, which would have only furthered the shame he felt already.

We're really on opposite ends of the spectrum in perspective concerning this subject. Just don't get upset at others for their opinions which might differ from yours. We're talking about characters in a story, not you or me directly.

[G147]

Originally Posted by thundrakkon

Ok, Alfonso has no right to be upset at Leon for not living up to Alfonso's expectations. That's an image that Alfonso projected on Leon. The only blame there is Alfonso himself.

So Alfonso doesn't have the right to be upset over the fact that Leon brought shame to not only their grandfather, but to all the previous Garo as well? The Garo title is very prestigious even among Makai world. Plus both Leon and Alfonso were told about how great their grandfather was, even Rafael and Gael praise their grandfather as the strongest Garo. As his grandson, i believe Alfonso wanted to live up to his grandfather's legacy as well and hope that his cousin can do the same for their grandfather.

Originally Posted by thundrakkon

Yeah, after totally demoralizing and taking the only thing of value to an emotional unstable teenager in the depths of depression, Alfonso gets upset at Leon and essentially called him a coward. Nice... How much more shame was Alfonso going to put Leon in? Leon was in no state to fight at that moment, and he would have definitely lost to Alfonso, which would have only furthered the shame he felt already.

We're really on opposite ends of the spectrum in perspective concerning this subject. Just don't get upset at others for their opinions which might differ from yours. We're talking about characters in a story, not you or me directly.

Yes Alfonso took the armor but the Garo armor itself also accepted Alfonso. It means that the Garo armor itself have rejected Leon already. Even if Alfonso didn't take it, the armor will still rejected Leon. So no one took the Garo armor away from Leon, Leon screwed up and lost the right to don it. And you expect German or Alfonso to just leave the Garoken behind and wait for God knows how long before Leon could stand on his feet.

And while you say Alfonso shame Leon, i wonder which would be worst for Leon, having someone to chastise him because they care for him and hope that he can stand back on his feet again, or having no one to chastise him, instead try to comfort him only for Leon to be despaired by the fact that the Garo armor, the very thing he holds dearly, having rejected him. In any case, Leon can only stand on his own again and regain the Garo armor from the former scenario, the latter scenario would only push Leon further from the Garo armor.

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by thundrakkon

That's after he took the golden armor. He was not doing too well before that, and suddenly he is the best thing ever.

And that can't be because the golden armor is more powerful than his old one, right? Also, if we're on this point, at least he did something. Meanwhile, Leon got consumed by angst and left the monster to do whatever Mendoza wanted it to do, while Leon destroyed the city and killed people...

Originally Posted by thundrakkon

Alfonso's father killed (indirectly, well, ok ordering the killing is kind of direct) Leon's mother. Alfonso did not have to right to chastise Leon to get over his mom... at least not in the way he did. He could have said other things that would have seemed more compassionate.

Again, Mendoza aside (since he was the one who advised evil things to the unsuspecting king), how exactly is this Alfonso's fault? Alfonso was three years old at the time, but even if he had been older, whatever his father did, it's not his fault and he shouldn't be held responsible for it. Also, Alfonso never said that Leon should get over his mom. He said that he shouldn't allow rage to control him. Leon had one job: to protect people. This is a huge responsibility, and Leon failed miserably at it. Alfonso had every right to chastise him.

Originally Posted by thundrakkon

After he found out his mother died and retracted his thoughts, it was a bit too late, since it was after the fact, and only because he lost his mom as well. He spouted his ideologies, then went "oops, I might not have been any better myself in his shoes." Yeah, a little too little too late, since the damage is done.

Except that's not what he said and not what he meant...

Originally Posted by thundrakkon

Ok, Alfonso has no right to be upset at Leon for not living up to Alfonso's expectations. That's an image that Alfonso projected on Leon. The only blame there is Alfonso himself.

Leon, the latest incarnation of the legendary Golden Knight and savior hero, destroyed the town and killed/endangered people while allowing the bad guy to roam free. That's not exactly a situation where you go "damn, poor kid, I should adjust my expectations"!

Yes, Leon had a good reason for succumbing to his rage, and the responsibility falls on German's shoulders at least as much as Leon's own, but nevertheless he failed incredibly hard at being and doing what he was supposed to be and do. In fact, he became and did the complete opposite of that. Instead of protecting people and avenging his mom, he went and destroyed people and let his mom's murderer walk free. And then he was all "but that's my armor, give it back!" What did you expect how would the others react? "Aww you poor kid, you did a bad thing but it's OK, don't do it again! Look, the legendary armor that can be worn only by those worthy of it, agrees!"

And I actually quite like it that the show didn't go the usual route where a tragic backstory and angsting over it is a get out of jail free card for the hero, no matter how much he screws up, and other characters coddle him and forgive him everything. Now Leon will have to work hard on moving on and improving himself to be worthy of the armor and the hero role again. (I wholly expect his return to be awesome.)

[thundrakkon]

This discussion is becoming circular, so there is not much more for me to add to it. My opinions differ from yours, and we can leave it at that.

Again, yes, Leon is wrong. His armor getting taken away was the right course in the story. He needs to repent for his sins, and he needs to mature from the burden of his birthright. All this is needed in the story. The only thing that was not done well, in my opinion, is the way, attitude, and words used by Alfonso. That is all I want to say about the subject.

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

Except that's not what he said and not what he meant...

Alright, just for this one point.

"If Mendoza had used you as a hostage, I wonder if I would have still been able to chastise Leon."

That quote can be interpreted in a multiple of ways, but in essence, he is saying that he might not have been any better than Leon given circumstances concerning his own mother.

[Sageblink]

Originally Posted by juve

People hating on Alfonso because he is an ass who suddenly turned into a presomptuous lecturer.
Pretty understandable.

Fixed it for you.

[Eclipze]

Leon being wrong with his actions and him deserving to be berated by Alfonso/losing the right to the Garo armor is one thing, but it seems that people like to forget that Leon lost control only after the Jedi Mind-fuck by Mendoza.

Are you 100% confident that Alfonso would have been able to resist if he had been put into a similar situation? Alfonso said it himself with regards to the possibility that may have arise from her staying alive able simply being made hostage. What do you think will happen if, on top of killing Alfonso's mother in front of his eyes, that Mendoza were to proceed with mind-fuckery that shows his mother writhing in pain and constantly calling out for help? Will Alfonso magically be like "this shit is fake Mendoza, you won't trick me!"?

I guess its just one of those "how dare you let yourself be affected by the evil-doer's mind trick like that! only a weakling would be affected!" bullshit argument that people like to believe. It doesn't matter how mentally strong you may be as a person, if someone finds your weakspot, they can EASILY push you over the edge - either into despair or uncontrollable rage. People are not machines.

And no, kicking a man while he is down and physically/mentally exhausted (lets not forget the instant challenge that he had proposed on the spot for rights to the Garo armor, did Alfonso serious think that Leon was in a state to fight? ) does not count as "tough love/drilling in a hard lesson" to someone. That's being an asshole.

Funnily enough, if Leon was female (in the exact same mental state), you can be sure that the words and actions of Alfonso/Germain would have been seen as much more vile in comparison to now. You know, a male gotta "man up" and all that jazz, because a male's mental well-being isn't important or something. I mean hey, that worked out SO well for Mendoza.

[orion]

I'll just chime in that "With great power comes responsibility." comes into play. If you are a tactical nuke like Garo is then you're not suppose to fall for seeing your mother in obvious pain. It should have been expected when you're being burned alive. It doesn't make it easy to see but Leon knew her history.

Leon let his anger get the best of him and destroyed a town. Lots of innocent and guilty people got killed which is against their principles. Leon was lucky to have left the place alive imo.

Leon's mental state was due to him losing purpose when Garo defected and Alfonzo destroyed the beast and Mendoza which was what Leon was suppose to have done. Leon shouldn't have "lost it" the way he did. German lost more and he's not acting like Leon.

[G147]

Originally Posted by Eclipze

Leon being wrong with his actions and him deserving to be berated by Alfonso/losing the right to the Garo armor is one thing, but it seems that people like to forget that Leon lost control only after the Jedi Mind-fuck by Mendoza.

Not sure about others, but i did remember what Mendoza did. I also remembered that Leon mindlessly rushing to attack Mendoza which caused that and i also remembered as shown by Kouga, it is possible for the Knight to still communicate with the others even in the Lost Beast mode. So Leon was in fact caught too deep in his own emotions, he can't even hear Alfonso, German or even Ema's voice.

Originally Posted by Eclipze

Are you 100% confident that Alfonso would have been able to resist if he had been put into a similar situation? Alfonso said it himself with regards to the possibility that may have arise from her staying alive able simply being made hostage. What do you think will happen if, on top of killing Alfonso's mother in front of his eyes, that Mendoza were to proceed with mind-fuckery that shows his mother writhing in pain and constantly calling out for help? Will Alfonso magically be like "this shit is fake Mendoza, you won't trick me!"?

No one said that Alfonso will be able to resist it 100%, even Alfonso questioned himself if he could. But at the moment, Leon is being rejected by the Garo armor. Unless if Leon gains the mentality that German, Alfonso and Ema has, he won't be able to regain the armor.

Originally Posted by Eclipze

I guess its just one of those "how dare you let yourself be affected by the evil-doer's mind trick like that! only a weakling would be affected!" bullshit argument that people like to believe. It doesn't matter how mentally strong you may be as a person, if someone finds your weakspot, they can EASILY push you over the edge - either into despair or uncontrollable rage. People are not machines.

Well said, but that itself proved that Leon doesn't fully understand the weight of his mission like his father did. If German had any weakness back then, it would be Bernardo. To have your breast friend, and arguably the closest person beside Leon to German, fall to darkness and even point his sword to you. Hopefully what transpired this episode will bring Leon one step closer to German's strength.

Originally Posted by Eclipze

And no, kicking a man while he is down and physically/mentally exhausted (lets not forget the instant challenge that he had proposed on the spot for rights to the Garo armor, did Alfonso serious think that Leon was in a state to fight? ) does not count as "tough love/drilling in a hard lesson" to someone. That's being an asshole.

And you think it'll be better for Leon if no one blame or chastise him instead comfort him, then when Leon tries to take the sword, the sword rejects him. Either way, Leon needs a trigger for him to fully understand what it means to be a Makai Knight. That's all there is. I myself am not supporting Leon nor Alfonso, just that people shouldn't go Alfonso is an asshole for what he did. Cause Alfonso only did what's best to protect the people back then. Plus Leon was clearly mentally unstable back then, supposing if the armor doesn't reject Leon, how can they guarantee that Leon won't go berserk again. And can they guarantee that they could stop Leon like they did last time.

[KleenexGhost]

I would say Herman is still trying to get over his loss. His constant sleeping around and all.

Leon made a mistake. He went for revenge, instead of protecting the people. He's still very immature with a lot of room to grow. Mendoza took advantage of this and pushed him over the edge. Even Alfonso said if Mendoza had tried to use his mother, he doesn't know what he would have done.

[Chosen_Hero]

Originally Posted by Eclipze

Leon being wrong with his actions and him deserving to be berated by Alfonso/losing the right to the Garo armor is one thing, but it seems that people like to forget that Leon lost control only after the Jedi Mind-fuck by Mendoza.

Are you 100% confident that Alfonso would have been able to resist if he had been put into a similar situation? Alfonso said it himself with regards to the possibility that may have arise from her staying alive able simply being made hostage. What do you think will happen if, on top of killing Alfonso's mother in front of his eyes, that Mendoza were to proceed with mind-fuckery that shows his mother writhing in pain and constantly calling out for help? Will Alfonso magically be like "this shit is fake Mendoza, you won't trick me!"?

I guess its just one of those "how dare you let yourself be affected by the evil-doer's mind trick like that! only a weakling would be affected!" bullshit argument that people like to believe. It doesn't matter how mentally strong you may be as a person, if someone finds your weakspot, they can EASILY push you over the edge - either into despair or uncontrollable rage. People are not machines.

And no, kicking a man while he is down and physically/mentally exhausted (lets not forget the instant challenge that he had proposed on the spot for rights to the Garo armor, did Alfonso serious think that Leon was in a state to fight? ) does not count as "tough love/drilling in a hard lesson" to someone. That's being an asshole.

Funnily enough, if Leon was female (in the exact same mental state), you can be sure that the words and actions of Alfonso/Germain would have been seen as much more vile in comparison to now. You know, a male gotta "man up" and all that jazz, because a male's mental well-being isn't important or something. I mean hey, that worked out SO well for Mendoza.

Exactly and if he had tried to take Garo back I'm guessing they would have still chastised him for doing so.

[juve]

Originally Posted by Sageblink

Fixed it for you.

Oh forgive me for not being sorry for boohoo Leon and his sob story.

[Sageblink]

Originally Posted by juve

Oh forgive me for not being sorry for boohoo Leon and his sob story.

I never said that Leon was right, because he's not (pretty logical).
I just gave you the reason why most people started hating on Alfonso.

[Rokumonsen]

Can't we just all agree that both of them have faults, in one way or another?

[Sageblink]

"Yes, we can" !

[orion]

Originally Posted by KleenexGhost

I would say Herman is still trying to get over his loss. His constant sleeping around and all.

I thought that was so that he could get a heir.

He would be more lucky in that matter if he stayed with one female imo.

[Tenzen12]

He would have to find one worthy to stay live with first and with him never staying on one spot for longer time it would be rather difficult...

Well, there might be also standart issue of possibility she would get targeted by horrors and stuff.

[orion]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

He would have to find one worthy to stay live with first and with him never staying on one spot for longer time it would be rather difficult...

Well, there might be also standart issue of possibility she would get targeted by horrors and stuff.

The last one looked like a pretty good candidate. She looked honest, unmarried and he fainted right behind her. Not to mention that she's in the poster and he met her twice.