Why not release translations first?

[SinsI]

Koreans use them .smi files that are timed on frame-by-frame basis.
Russians use anything and everything available and have no problems at all, or at least they ignore them or easily fix them.

For SSA and ASS, if it is a precision of 10ms, then one frame is ~30 ms, and you just have to time so that lines ends at worst one frame before a scene change. That buffer frame would be enough to correct for frames miscount due to conversion from "timed" to "framed".
We are speaking about speedsubs, they all have the same frame rates.
And I've shifted timing many times.
You can consider VFR as plain simple ~120Fps as far as timing is concerned.

[xat]

You brought about a point which warranted response, and yet you want me to cease?

I'll lastly note that the level of compression is something left to the judgement of the encoder. The proportionality of damage to compression you're mentioning will depend on what is being compressed; all we're aiming to remove during the processing stage is what the encoder (as in the software, not the person) will regard as "detail" when in actuality it is simply noise, which, if compressed, can and likely will result in a product worse than the original since it won't compress well. The other applications as you have mentioned would (perhaps) qualify as 'processing for the sake of percievably better quality'.

"High compression" may not even be the most appropriate term. Perhaps "ease of compression"? The former suggests that yes, we are compressing resulting in a lot of detail loss. The latter better suggests that we're able to retain almost the entire cleaned frame when going from an intermediate lossless encode to a lossy release encode since the encoder (again, the software) does not need to throw out detail in order to retain a reasonable frame size. I suppose you could say the following is a major factor behind why many "good" sources are so large; for detail to be retained, the person capturing is dealing with both the source and the additional noise that comes with the less than ideal capture (which, again, does not compress well). I'd say that there would be far more capture encodes of smaller size if capturers would process their own releases (beyond deinterlacing), or simply ensure that their equipment is top notch.

Anime in general tends to compress quite well -- provided that it's clean, and here you see where judgement comes into play. I wouldn't conclude, for example, that a high motion, high detail episode should be compressed to 80mb. Such (rare) material may warrant something beyond the usual 150-170mb release. On that note, unless there is an absurd amount of detail for a 24 minute feature, I do not consider the 500+mb (aska) captures reasonable in size either.

Now, how will I come to discuss the original post? Oh, right; Scab really hits the nail on the head. You can toss encoding and typesetting, but the bulk of the work remains with the remaining positions. Include editing/QCing the script, and all of a sudden an additional two hours for an encode and an hour for typesetting isn't all that bad. You could go even further and eliminate timing, leaving users subject to following a pure manuscript. At that point you're pretty well off with bandwidth saving, but now you're inconvenienced (especially if one lacks proficiency in Japanese) with "guessing" who is saying what line, according to what time -- and I don't believe a manuscript will contain times as a guide.

[Ronbo]

Adjusting the timing for me has never been problem. If it’s out of sync all I have to do is move the subtitle slider one way or the other while I’m watching it to adjust the timing.

When I mentioned that releasing the timed scripts first would save bandwidth I was referring to the fansubbers not the fans! All of the scripts that I have seen to date are under 20KB vs. a 200MB +/- finished release. There will be those who download the scripts and not bother downloading the finished file. By having fewer full sized episodes being downloaded the servers trackers will not suffer from bandwidth fatigue. At least in theory.

[Schneizel]

<insert the obligatory - "Hey, you know what also sounded good in theory? Communism" here>

[xat]

Originally Posted by Ronbo

At least in theory.

In practice, those who are capable of providing the service of hosting and distributing releases generally tend to have more than the capacity actually required. Bandwidth, at least for us, is not so much of an issue -- especially thanks to services like bittorrent.

[naka]

Originally Posted by SinsI

kodachrome, stop, stop already. Don't post things that make me question your IQ level. Common sense applies everythere. If you see that no good raw is out there - then of course you wait for one or make one yourself when you fansub.
koei, my answer is quoted two lines higher in your own post(BTW, overquoting) - I understand most of what is said in the fansub. If you mean others - same way they do with fansubs nowdays - reliable sources.
bayoab, bandwidth is reduced for those with the raws already. For all others it is the same - and they get it at the same time they do now.
As for downloading everything - I already said, only acceptable quality. So, I download everything only for the first couple of eps. And if they released them as scripts, it would be a huge bonus.
Ensign Shiro Amada ... and everyone likes them fast. And I'm not guesslating - I do translate manga. I'm just not proficient enough to do it "on the fly".
And such groups already exist - yu, adtrw. Never saw their scripts misused or miscredited.

Actually, I find the whole situation quite comical. One poor leecher is attacked on all sides by fansubbers . Usually it is the other way around Worst thing is that it is all a repetition of the same things, for which I already gave my answers, without anything new and interesting.

okay, i'll clear this up first and foremost, the scripts on the yu's scarywater page are version 2, aka, to save the bw of people who 'already' have the v1 video...

not once was a v1 script released out alone without a raw to accompanied with it 'other' than a subtitle script for a game opening requested by someone

i'm sure a lot more ppl will give more "wtf" if memories off 5 was released script only since no one bt-ed that particular raw out on tt, or the rest of the yomigaeru sora are released script only since those are analog cap that's been out on tt...

and issues ensures when you are only releasing a script, you cant use embeded fonts, which totally kills a lot of style on the subtitle right there...

shifting scripts are no funny matter when your video is vfr, which makes signs appears quite possibly 10s earlier than it's supposed to be EVEN when you shifted the rest of the dialogues that are timed by audio... (*points at sin in the rain - 1 - completed version*)

[Scab]

Originally Posted by SinsI

Koreans use them .smi files that are timed on frame-by-frame basis.

Heh, your solution is to switch to a completely different format that can't do anything even close to what SSA/ASS is being used for today? Yeah, that'll happen. -_-

Originally Posted by SinsI

For SSA and ASS, if it is a precision of 10ms, then one frame is ~30 ms, and you just have to time so that lines ends at worst one frame before a scene change. That buffer frame would be enough to correct for frames miscount due to conversion from "timed" to "framed".

Well, since the intervals are inconsistent, not incrementally closer and closer to the scene changes, shifting so that one frame ends too early will make a lot of frames further ahead end too early as well, thus breaking scene-timing. Unless your alternate raw has timings identical to those in the raw that the fansubbers used your mass-shift will always result in errors.

Originally Posted by SinsI

We are speaking about speedsubs, they all have the same frame rates.

You're missing the point. I'm saying that when scene-timing a script to a video at the very common framerate of 23.976 you have a range of about 42ms between the first and the second frame that you can end the subtitle during. Literally anywhere during these 42ms will do. Scene-timed subtitles are constantly cut at different places during these 42ms and that is enough to break scene-timing when shifting to a different raw.

[SinsI]

Scab, I think that difference of one frame is only noticeable if a scene change happened during that frame, and that can be avoided by providing a time buffer.
For scripts, if the original timer for the script then timing to his raw would start and end the script line so that there is at least one frame distance to the nearest scene change it would be enough. For existing scripts, you can make such a buffer yourself by moving it a little so that the end of the line is before the scene change - usually very few fansubs have a scene change synchronised to the beginning of a line.

Edit: Ah, I get it. You meant that you want the line to end _exactly_ at the scene end. Such timing would be quite hard to achieve, I have to agree with you. What I meant as timing to the scene change is not to see line ending in a new scene - that's what was annoying me, and that's what is easily fixed.

naka - That is solved by putting the fonts into .zip packages together with the script.

[acidflower]

SinsI, I warn you! :O You have made several fansmubbers annoyed ~ If all of them are as dangerous as when Koda sees me near dray, I pray for your health. ><;

[Scab]

Originally Posted by SinsI

For existing scripts, it is enough to make such a buffer yourself by moving it a little so that the end of the line is before the scene change. - usually very few fansubs have a scene change synchronised to the beginning of a line.

Um, if the end of the subtitle is before the scene change, you've broken the scene-timing. -_-

[Alizar]

Originally Posted by SinsI

VFR is actually just plain simple ~120Fps

Ah, no, it's not. In an .avi yes, in .mkv you can have true variable frame rate. It's a radically different beasty.

I think this raises the main point, that is, the different roles of fansubbing require a reasonable amount of sometimes arcane knowledge. Dealing with subs, applying them correctly to episodes, finding the best raw, etc. etc. -- all of these are not easy tasks. A lot of it (see: timing) is tedious and somewhat thankless. By making one, easily downloaded and played file, fansubbers save everyone a headache at cost to their own time.

[Frostbiteh2o]

Let me hope in here and say a few words. I've been leeching anime long enough to have d/led the raw and the script. Does anyone remember when the anime was being released in real format and you had to D/L the Trans with it. I'm talking about way back in time when all the subs pretty much looked the same. We can fuss about a lot of things, like what codec is used for the show and how it does this or that, but I want to know is from a leechers stand point, why do I want a codec that makes me have to work harder to watch something that I might or might not like? Why because it's better quality right? But does it matter if I’m going to by the DVD... right??? Wrong because we all know most of them aren't going to buy it.
The fansub groups the claim they are only releasing for fun are full of it. If they can say they have never looked at the tracking numbers of how many people are downloading their release then maybe they are telling the truth about doing it for fun, but I bet you none of them are using a format that makes it harder for other "fans" to watch their releases.
I understand that as a person you want to do the best job that you can do, no one wants to be known for releasing garbage, but at the same time when do you stop wanting to do a good job and start only caring about the praise you receive? It comes down to this, and it’s very simple. I worked hard, created something and I want you to go “ohhhhh!!! Ahhhhh!!!” at what I just made. I don’t care if I can make your life easier by doing x or y, or that I could spread anime to more people. If I did care I would actually take the time to help each leecher that msged me instead of saying go to this chan on this server. I would use a format that made allowed for anyone, down to the person that is still running windows 98(or ME even) not because they like it but because their computer is that old, God forbid the anime fan is poor or something, we don’t want that. Even better, how about we do what the manga scanlator communities do and actually release the t/led scripts in a forum so everyone could read it. But speed is an issue, I as a fansubber want to have my ep out faster than you, so the masses d/l my version. But who has time to release a timed and edited translation to the public, when I’m too busy making my subs all these fancy colors that might look good, are very hard to read because the colors blend in with the background or are so small you need a magnifying glass to read. It’s this simple, when fansubbing was about spreading anime people would release the script. I’ll prove it. Go find the oldest fansubs of ranma, trigun and eva you can find. And tell me what format they are in. Then think about when they were released and how often you heard about anime then when you were not online, or at an anime club meeting. Then fast forward to 2002-3 and tell me why outlaw star was released on cartoon network before fansub groups did it? If the answer is because fansubbing had helped create a sub-culture that allowed for anime to be released to the public and it not be thought of as “taboo”, please then explain why a fansub is needed. If the answer is it’s not needed, then tell me why a fansubber would do any of the things that were suggested in the first post to help the leecher get the anime, when they aren’t needed to get the anime to the leecher?

[gumbaloom]

Why is everyone making such a big deal about this ?

1) Above all else fansubbing is a hobby. We have no obligations to the leechers in any way shape or form so we can chose to release a fansub in any way that we please and the leechers can't do a single thing about it.

2) We don't release scripts often and only in certain circumstances as the widespread publicly availability of scripts would just make it easier for pirates. Yes i KNOW people can just OCR the subs but the goal of a fansubber in the long run is to get a licensing company in his own company to license the anime not to help an ebay pirate make up their set of bootleg dvd's.

3) Raw translated scripts are often very flakey. I've seen raw timed SSA's which are often full of translation holes and horrendous editing errors. If raw translated SSA's like that were released people would then start complaining that not every line was translated etc etc. If you really do like that sort of script then why are you watching fansubs? Go and buy HK DVD's.

Apart from Typesetting and Encoding which obviously make the subs look pretty the rest of the fansubbing process is designed to help you the leecher to get a better script with editing fixing grammar and translation deliteralisation and QC picking up mistakes.

So at least to me demanding raw timed scripts is nothing more than a leechers sense of entitlement getting the better of him. Fansubbing and the downloading of fansubs / raws is illegal You havent paid for that TV cap raw you've downloaded. If you don't understand Japanese then DONT DOWNLOAD THE RAWS IN THE FIRST PLACE.

At least to me you shouldn't be downloading raws unless
a) You understand Japanese
or
b) You have the bandwidth to waste on downloading a raw followed by a fansub.

If you fufill neither of those conditions then DONT DO IT!!!. WAIT FOR THE FANSUB FOR HEAVENS SAKE.

Therefore in my view that would make the whole argument of asking for raw timed scripts prior to a fansubs release kinda senseless.

The ONLY ONLY excuse a leecher would have for asking for a fansubbers scripts if if they had bought the region 2 dvd's. However in this day and age of where all leechers think that anime is free and they are entitled to everything I really wonder how many leechers do actually support the anime industr by buying Japanese region 2's. For the most part it's only fansubbers who appreciate the high quality :x.

-gumbaloom

[Frostbiteh2o]

Originally Posted by gumbaloom

1) Above all else fansubbing is a hobby. We have no obligations to the leechers in any way shape or form so we can chose to release a fansub in any way that we please and the leechers can't do a single thing about it.
-gumbaloom

It's statments like this, that cause the speed sub groups to come out, and the leechers to not respect what fansubbing used to be about. I'm a leecher that has been told by a fansub group that i suck and i wait for them, so i say fine, i'll start my own fansub group. but because we don't know the first thing about subbing my group will excel at one thing. It won't be timing, or editing, or encoding, nope not even t/l that's right we can release an ep so fast it's still airing in japan when we release it. And you know what i get to do now? That's right i get to tell all the "leechers" that they have to do it my way or they have to wait to get the ep. Being a leecher sucks and being a fansubber is cool because i get to say things like "We have no obligations to the leechers in any way shape or form so we can chose to release a fansub in any way that we please and the leechers can't do a single thing about it."

[gumbaloom]

Originally Posted by Frostbiteh2o

we can release an ep so fast it's still airing in japan when we release it.

I think a few speedsub groups might want to know how you do it.

And umm anyhow I don't really care if people download my groups version or another. Take Initial D 4th Stage. Other groups released before us. I don't care.

If we're talking about ultra popular shows there will always be another group who can release an ep quickly. Therefore if you don't wanna wait for one particular group then just go and download another groups release. Problem solved.

Fansubbers are doing it for fun. We stay up till 3am in the morning sometimes to finish episodes but we don't get paid. Untill such times as leechers actually pay money to a fansubber and sign a legally binding work contract they can expect nor demand anything.

-gumbaloom

[Harry Paratesticles]

Originally Posted by Frostbiteh2o

It's statments like this, that cause the speed sub groups to come out, and the leechers to not respect what fansubbing used to be about. I'm a leecher that has been told by a fansub group that i suck and i wait for them, so i say fine, i'll start my own fansub group. but because we don't know the first thing about subbing my group will excel at one thing. It won't be timing, or editing, or encoding, nope not even t/l that's right we can release an ep so fast it's still airing in japan when we release it. And you know what i get to do now? That's right i get to tell all the "leechers" that they have to do it my way or they have to wait to get the ep. Being a leecher sucks and being a fansubber is cool because i get to say things like "We have no obligations to the leechers in any way shape or form so we can chose to release a fansub in any way that we please and the leechers can't do a single thing about it."

I can definitely agree with part of this, considering it's also one of the factors to what's commonly known as "oversubbing." Everyone thinks they can do something better than someone else, so they will sub a series regardless of other groups doing it and/or of releasing on a regular basis. It's that kind of machismo that bogs down the process, because, in the end, everyone wants to be better than someone else at something. Some groups pride themselves on quick releases, some on fancy karaoke, others on well translated/edited dialogue, and the list goes down the line. But it's also because of this goal-oriented mindset that there's no point in trying to convine the groups to do otherwise. Everyone's got a specific audience (the speed over quality audience, the high quality longer wait audience, and any groups in between), and if any one group cared enough about releasing for speed, then you'd get your translated and timed scripts without argument. Don't raise that primitivistic "I'm old school and I liked it the way it was" tripe because the fact is that things aren't the same now as before. You can suggest stuff, but the second you go attacking fansubbers, others will take to the offensive in response, so don't act like you didn't expect to get ganged up on. The majority of anime fans are content with the way things are now (minus the whole h264 issue), otherwise they'd be up in arms with you to fight for this. You've made your suggestion, it's not up to you how fansubbers will respond to it, so stop picking fights over what's said and deal with the fact that the majority of fansubbers think it's a bad idea.

[Ronbo]

Fansubs, By Fans for Fans.
I don't actually remember which group coined this phrase years ago but it's meaning seems to have gotten lost at some point in time.

[Kanna]

Fansubs, By Fans for Fans.

Right, and I don't see anything about bending over for them either.

[gumbaloom]

Heh and double heh

If you can provide adequate counter argument in light of my previous 2 posts about why fansubbers should give out raw timed scripts then I'd be willing to listen.

As for your last comment.

If you were giving a music concert to a group of Mozart fans. Would you do them the disservice of not practicing beforehand or would you practise like mad so you knew you'd give your best performance?

It's only the same with fansubbing. Raw scripts are rough round the edges and untill they've been edited and QC'd they ain't fansubs. Fansubbers are always trying to improve the quality of their work.

It almost seems to me that you think we should revert back to the bad old days of Naruto speed sub groups :c . I'd be worried if we saw fansubs on suki again with quality warnings :/

-gumbaloom

[LytHka]

Originally Posted by SinsI

usually very few fansubs have a scene change synchronised to the beginning of a line.

This is kinda offtopic, but it seems that you really don't know anything about quality fansub releases. I probably know more timers who adjust subs to the beginning of a scene than those who don't. And why do you think these are so rare? Because you download the first crap that comes out. Those usually don't even have it adjusted to the end scene.