romantic friendship vs. Yuri

[silversongwriter]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

That's not what I said. That part you quoted was in response to Akuma Kinomoto saying that being a couple doesn't automatically imply sex.

So I said that if you already acknowledge that both characters are a couple, you would naturally think that when they share the same bed, they don't just sleep.
But if you don't, you can easily and more logically think that they aren't doing anything strange.

Yea, but you said that it was a blatent fact they are a couple

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by silversongwriter

Yea, but you said that it was a blatent fact they are a couple

Referring to the mountain of other evidence in the show that suggests it in the hypothetical example, and them being in the same bed would just be one more sign. But if you're going to be a denier that won't take any hints and expects physical proof for every suggestion when it would be obvious if the gender mix were different, people will start suspecting you have other issues.

Is this thread basically at EOL, or is there something further to discuss?

[silversongwriter]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Referring to the mountain of other evidence in the show that suggests it in the hypothetical example, and them being in the same bed would just be one more sign. But if you're going to be a denier that won't take any hints and expects physical proof for every suggestion when it would be obvious if the gender mix were different, people will start suspecting you have other issues.

Is this thread basically at EOL, or is there something further to discuss?

Well... I haven't seen it. However, whether or not they're objectively a lesbian couple is debated a lot.

Perhaps they're bicurious? Perhaps they themselves are unaware of what thier feelings truely mean towards each other... I don't know. I'm not a denyer... Let me ask... What do you think completely cements that they are undebatably a lesbian couple? What is the strongest evidence suggesting that. Hinting at something strongly isn't the same as confirming it. And if the writers went that direction, there's probably a reason why

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by silversongwriter

Well... I haven't seen it. However, whether or not they're objectively a lesbian couple is debated a lot.

Perhaps they're bicurious? Perhaps they themselves are unaware of what thier feelings truely mean towards each other... I don't know. I'm not a denyer... Let me ask... What do you think completely cements that they are undebatably a lesbian couple? What is the strongest evidence suggesting that. Hinting at something strongly isn't the same as confirming it. And if the writers went that direction, there's probably a reason why

I don't spend very much time worrying about it either way. If the author wants to make it a plot point, they'll do so. Otherwise, as long as they're strongly devoted/committed to each other, generally to the exclusion of all others, and demonstrate love and intimacy, they might as well be a couple for all intents and purposes. A tearful romantic confession, passionate lover's kiss, and cut-away to the bedroom and birds chirping the next morning is not required. I think what some others in the thread were lamenting, though, is that they rarely seem to do the latter even though it's more common in heterosexual romantic portrayals, and when they don't, it leaves the door to some people making the above sort of factitious argument since "they're both girls/boys and good friends, so it's normal/okay for them to <blank>" (or, the more insidious "they're not really like that; they'll grow out of it when they grow up" -- an argument you'd never make the other way around).

As for the "reason why" I think writers may go in that direction, see some of my previous posts. There may be remnant bias and cultural issues, but I also think some of it is just because the "tease" excites some people more than the "act" (even if they then play out the "act" in fanfiction). Of course it's not like shows that tease pairings are exclusive to these sorts of pairings, they just play out a bit differently in most male-female romantic stories.

[silversongwriter]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

I don't spend very much time worrying about it either way. If the author wants to make it a plot point, they'll do so. Otherwise, as long as they're strongly devoted/committed to each other, generally to the exclusion of all others, and demonstrate love and intimacy, they might as well be a couple for all intents and purposes. A tearful romantic confession, passionate lover's kiss, and cut-away to the bedroom and birds chirping the next morning is not required. I think what some others in the thread were lamenting, though, is that they rarely seem to do the latter even though it's more common in heterosexual romantic portrayals, and when they don't, it leaves the door to some people making the above sort of factitious argument since "they're both girls/boys and good friends, so it's normal/okay for them to <blank>" (or, the more insidious "they're not really like that; they'll grow out of it when they grow up" -- an argument you'd never make the other way around).

As for the "reason why" I think writers may go in that direction, see some of my previous posts. There may be remnant bias and cultural issues, but I also think some of it is just because the "tease" excites some people more than the "act" (even if they then play out the "act" in fanfiction). Of course it's not like shows that tease pairings are exclusive to these sorts of pairings, they just play out a bit differently in most male-female romantic stories.

As for overly close friendships being "factitious"... I'd tend to disagree. A lot of girls in real life express closeness in ways I as a dude would NEVER do with one of my male friends. So there exists friendship that boarders on being slightly more than friends. It does happen, and it's not a result of "cultural issues" that these depictions take place in anime.

Anime loves to romanticize everything it possibly can. Character traits, relationships... Anime always shoots for the emotional reaction, whether it's finding it cute or heartfelt. And when there's a friendship anime, particularly about two girls, they're going to try to make it as cute and emotional as possible. So that's why girls in anime are so close. Plus, if it slightly teases the idea of lesbianism, it's gonna excite men. Pervy guys like me make up a big chunk of anime viewers...

And I've noticed in a lot of shoujo/josei anime I've seen, a lot of male friendships seem way too close. There were so many times during "Kids on the Slope" I said... "Dude, you need to say no homo after saying that"

Gakuen Alice had a girl who pretty much loved her best friend, and in one scene was clearly dreaming about kissing her.
However, as the series progressed, she fell in love with a boy... And I'm sure stuff like that happens in real life too.

[Akito Kinomoto]

Originally Posted by silversongwriter

As for overly close friendships being "factitious"... I'd tend to disagree. A lot of girls in real life express closeness in ways I as a dude would NEVER do with one of my male friends. So there exists friendship that boarders on being slightly more than friends. It does happen, and it's not a result of "cultural issues" that these depictions take place in anime.

RF iz talkin' aboot how no1 wood m8k dat argument if teh chars were male-female, & ur teh 1 who justifyed romantic friendship w/ sushul stuffz (wut was dat aboot not carin' 4 teh soshul implic8shuns again?)

Originally Posted by silversongwriter

Gakuen Alice had a girl who pretty much loved her best friend, and in one scene was clearly dreaming about kissing her.
However, as the series progressed, she fell in love with a boy... And I'm sure stuff like that happens in real life too.

Yes, people fall n & out of rabu. Arigatou 4 tellin' us.

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

I don't spend very much time worrying about it either way. If the author wants to make it a plot point, they'll do so. Otherwise, as long as they're strongly devoted/committed to each other, generally to the exclusion of all others, and demonstrate love and intimacy, they might as well be a couple for all intents and purposes.

Back to another point Irenicus raised earlier, I can recall one, maybe two, instances of male-female characters being close while still being platonic. The first is Tomoya and Kotomi from Clannad (speaking only for the show). They clearly care about each other, but it never extends to imply romantic affection (what a feat). The maybe is Rikki and Rin from Little Busters!, and once again I'm still only talking about the show.

Spoiler for Little Busters! Refrain:

There's a point where they try getting together, but IIRC even Rikki points out that it's just awkward between them and they're better off as friends. Or he has a reaction to imply as much.

[Darthtabby]

I'd actually agree that Nanoha and Fate have not been confirmed as a yuri couple in canon. I also think they're an excellent example of why a lot of people are frustrated with the hint but don't confirm approach. I'm pretty sure that the staff knew what they were heavily implying when they had those two sleep in the same bed and adopt a child who calls them both "mama" (though Fate is technically the child's godmother).