One Piece - Chapter 815 [manga]

[Slayerx]

Originally Posted by marvelB

Well, while a new character certainly is possible, I still wouldn't dismiss the possibility of them threatening someone from the Baratie crew. I mean, Zeff DID save Sanji's life during those months of starvation, after all.

Well i'm focusing on how the threat was whispered into Sanji's ear rather than spoken out loud. I feel like the likely reason to do that is to hide something from the audience

Originally Posted by J4n1

Haki was foreshadowed in Skypeia arc, and is not really all that out of place with everything else anyway (and Logia fruits did need a hard counter).
Agree with Sabo though, that seemed to come out of nowhere (atleast to me).

Actually i'm of the opinion/speculation that Oda created Mantra first, then came up with the idea of Haki, which he then tied back to Mantra in order to create the illusion that this was all planned out. Basically i believe it was a clever retcon. I just feels like there's a few too many possible holes for it to have been something planned from the beginning.

Originally Posted by game2007

There's a limit to how far Buggy can separate from his body before he loses control of any part that isn't the head, so the same should apply to Robin and Brook.

Eh, not all devil fruit powers follow the same rules... Brook in particular. I mean his soul was wondering around for years before he found his body; seems like his ability would have a very generous range.

[imza]

Originally Posted by Slayerx

Actually i'm of the opinion/speculation that Oda created Mantra first, then came up with the idea of Haki, which he then tied back to Mantra in order to create the illusion that this was all planned out. Basically i believe it was a clever retcon. I just feels like there's a few too many possible holes for it to have been something planned from the beginning.

The problem with the haki is retcon theory is that Oda would have to deal with how Luffy would fight Logias from the very beginning. Something like haki would have to have been in the works, which he may have modified over time.

[marvelB]

Originally Posted by Slayerx

Actually i'm of the opinion/speculation that Oda created Mantra first, then came up with the idea of Haki, which he then tied back to Mantra in order to create the illusion that this was all planned out. Basically i believe it was a clever retcon. I just feels like there's a few too many possible holes for it to have been something planned from the beginning.

Well, if it helps, right in the arc prior to Skypiea, Blackbeard directly comments on Luffy having a strong haki when he found out about his 100 million bounty. Though of course, at that time we were led to believe that he was talking about plain old "ambition" rather than the literal power born from one's ambition, heh.

[game2007]

Originally Posted by Slayerx

Actually i'm of the opinion/speculation that Oda created Mantra first, then came up with the idea of Haki, which he then tied back to Mantra in order to create the illusion that this was all planned out. Basically i believe it was a clever retcon. I just feels like there's a few too many possible holes for it to have been something planned from the beginning.

Eh, not all devil fruit powers follow the same rules... Brook in particular. I mean his soul was wondering around for years before he found his body; seems like his ability would have a very generous range.

Haki was around since the first chapter, when Shank scared off the Lord of the Coast with a stare. Oda plans very far ahead. He even had Brook in mind during the early days of the series.

And that was before Brook reunited with his body after coming back to life for the first time, so the exception probably only exists for that time.

[The Small One]

I think it's interessting how the real motives and backstory of the samurais is still unknown to us, even though they are basically around since the start of the second half of grand line.

[rladls2121]

Luffy and his crews are not just setting sail straight to the end of the Grand Line, they go many roundabouts to have fun adventures while being involved in many unfortunate cases.
There are some foreshadowing that they will go back to the Mermen Island because of Big Mom's case.

But really, I feel bad for those two samurais since they are not welcomed and came all the way just to be antagonized by Minks.
It was really funny seeing these three adults went to sleep.
Robin, Franky, and Brooke, being the oldest to newest crew, Luffy really needs someone older than him for his adventure.

[marvelB]

By the way.... I have a feeling that, despite his big speech last chapter, Zoro is willing to accompany Luffy to the wedding. Because despite all the insults he hurls at Sanji, I'm pretty darn sure he DOES care about him. Basically, I always suspected that Zoro was the most tsundere of the Straw-Hats.



But on a more serious note, there's another reason why I think Zoro will help rescue Sanji: It might sound like a small thing, but..... throughout the whole series so far, he's never directly addressed Sanji by name (this was even pointed out in an SBS). And, well.... I can't really think of a better point for him to start saying Sanji's name out loud than during an epic rescue from a political marriage....

[Ravagerblade]

While the whole crew storming the wedding would be epic, me being me, I'd love to see Luffy do it his way. It seems very appealing to me tbh.

[J4n1]

Originally Posted by marvelB

By the way.... I have a feeling that, despite his big speech last chapter, Zoro is willing to accompany Luffy to the wedding. Because despite all the insults he hurls at Sanji, I'm pretty darn sure he DOES care about him. Basically, I always suspected that Zoro was the most tsundere of the Straw-Hats.

Zoro would be willing to accompany Luffy to the wedding just for free drinks, or for no reason whatsoever.
He would also go there alone for any member of the crew.
Zoro does care about Sanji, as he does all of the Strawhats, he is loyal to his captain, his ship and his fellow crew to a degree that would come out as downright insane outside a shounen manga.
I would not call him Tsundere however.

Personaly i would also prefer he and Sanji keep to insult based communication.
Don't fix what ain't broke.

[marvelB]

Originally Posted by Ravagerblade

While the whole crew storming the wedding would be epic, me being me, I'd love to see Luffy do it his way. It seems very appealing to me tbh.

I'm not saying the whole crew would go.... just Luffy and Zoro. And just as a sign that the latter cares for Sanji more than he lets on, as I said in my above post.

Originally Posted by J4n1

Personaly i would also prefer he and Sanji keep to insult based communication.
Don't fix what ain't broke.

Don't see why that would change. It's just that the both of them would be on a first name basis, now. Bromance at its finest!


Seriously though, I can see this being possible for Zoro since we had a similar case with Robin. Prior to the CP9 arc, she only addressed Luffy by name, she called everyone else by nicknames (Ms. Navigator for Nami, Longnose-kun for Usopp, etc.), showing how distant she was from the rest. But after she was rescued? She became comfortable enough to address everyone by name. And somehow, I think there might be a slightly deeper reason why Oda chose to not have Zoro directly address Sanji by name after all this time.... and this could be the point where we'll see Marimo break through that barrier.

[J4n1]

Originally Posted by marvelB

Seriously though, I can see this being possible for Zoro since we had a similar case with Robin. Prior to the CP9 arc, she only addressed Luffy by name, she called everyone else by nicknames (Ms. Navigator for Nami, Longnose-kun for Usopp, etc.), showing how distant she was from the rest. But after she was rescued? She became comfortable enough to address everyone by name. And somehow, I think there might be a slightly deeper reason why Oda chose to not have Zoro directly address Sanji by name after all this time.... and this could be the point where we'll see Marimo break through that barrier.

I don't really see why they'd need to be in first name basis.
Not every relationship needs to follow the same formula, and keeping Zoro and Sanji where they are, while showing they care through actions (ie, crashing a wedding) instead of words or name choices, feels lot more natural for them.

Sure, i can see how showing softer side of people can be endearing, but why can't we, just this once, let someone remain a grumpy asshole.

[PixelCreek]

I've got a feeling Zoro will be the only one who "can't" go with Luffy right now. The straw hats need someone reliable incase trouble comes along (Kaido) while Luffy is gone. They still need enough strength to keep them relatively safe. While it's debatable that Franky or Robin could fill that spot, Zoro seems like the most important crew member they would need to stay behind.
I think that having the entire monster trio away from the crew will be a more risky move then just bringing the entire crew to the wedding.


If Luffy actually does take 1 crew member with him, then someone like Robin, Nami, or even Usopp might be a better idea..

In my eyes I think one of the girls would be the best to bring along. Nami for her navigation skills (unless Pekoms is a navigator?), and we could get some epic Nami moments (for once), and simply for her lack of spotlight in the last arc.

Or Robin for her ability to keep Luffy in check and assess the situation. Plus there's a relation here to her CP9 Arc and Sanji's Germa 66 problems.

But then there's Luffy / Usopp.. Which would always be an extremely fun time! (: with those epic moments from Usopp that I know we all crave!

[J4n1]

Originally Posted by PixelCreek

I've got a feeling Zoro will be the only one who "can't" go with Luffy right now. The straw hats need someone reliable incase trouble comes along (Kaido) while Luffy is gone. They still need enough strength to keep them relatively safe. While it's debatable that Franky or Robin could fill that spot, Zoro seems like the most important crew member they would need to stay behind.
I think that having the entire monster trio away from the crew will be a more risky move then just bringing the entire crew to the wedding.


If Luffy actually does take 1 crew member with him, then someone like Robin, Nami, or even Usopp might be a better idea..

In my eyes I think one of the girls would be the best to bring along. Nami for her navigation skills (unless Pekoms is a navigator?), and we could get some epic Nami moments (for once), and simply for her lack of spotlight in the last arc.

Or Robin for her ability to keep Luffy in check and assess the situation. Plus there's a relation here to her CP9 Arc and Sanji's Germa 66 problems.

But then there's Luffy / Usopp.. Which would always be an extremely fun time! (: with those epic moments from Usopp that I know we all crave!

You're probably right.
Luffy/Usopp team up to bust down a wedding could be both epic, and hilarious.
I especially want to see what happens when Sanji learns that Usopp is ahead of him in the bounty list.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by imza

The problem with the haki is retcon theory is that Oda would have to deal with how Luffy would fight Logias from the very beginning. Something like haki would have to have been in the works, which he may have modified over time.

Almost from the beginning we were introduced to Seastone. That was the original tool to deal with DF users. When the amount of characters kept increasing exponentially, Oda realized he needed more tools. Since Luffy beat Eneru without Haki, it's plausible that Oda figured he could always have Logia users lose by some kind of mismatch like that. Eventually he changed his mind though.

Originally Posted by game2007

Haki was around since the first chapter, when Shank scared off the Lord of the Coast with a stare.

Oh yea... the time an Emperor got his arm ripped off by an animal... the fact that there is literally zero chance that an Emperor could have that happen currently proves that it's a retcon.

Originally Posted by The Small One

I think it's interessting how the real motives and backstory of the samurais is still unknown to us, even though they are basically around since the start of the second half of grand line.

I'm interested about it too. So far, the ones we know have mostly been bumbling jokesters.

[imza]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

Almost from the beginning we were introduced to Seastone. That was the original tool to deal with DF users. When the amount of characters kept increasing exponentially, Oda realized he needed more tools. Since Luffy beat Eneru without Haki, it's plausible that Oda figured he could always have Logia users lose by some kind of mismatch like that. Eventually he changed his mind though.

Except for the fact that Luffy doesn't use weapons and there is no hint that he ever would have or would in the future (same goes for many other strong people).

It also seems strategically planned that the first two logias had obvious weaknesses Luffy could exploit and than meet his match later on with other elements, forcing him to grow. The fire logia was mentioned from the very beginning and it's hard to imagine how Luffy was going to find a workaround that one.

Also, as others pointed out to, Shanks had already shown Haki. The fact that the animal got his arm and that's not really completely consistent with emperors as we know them now is not relevant (even though I would argue that even Whitebeard got stabbed, showing that Emperors are not above getting hurt by much weaker people). Clearly Shanks had some ability that was reserved for the super powerful. Now, I don't think Haki was fully fleshed out and Oda played around with some ideas until he settled on what we have now but that's a different claim from saying Haki wasn't planned from the beginning.

[Ravagerblade]

Actually Luffy has used weapons before, Swords (arlong) and a metal pole as a child, If I'm not mistaken. Of course proficiency is another matter.

[imza]

Originally Posted by Ravagerblade

Actually Luffy has used weapons before, Swords (arlong) and a metal pole as a child, If I'm not mistaken. Of course proficiency is another matter.

True haha but he points out that he needs a Zoro because he doesn't know how to use swords.

[marvelB]

Originally Posted by Ravagerblade

Actually Luffy has used weapons before, Swords (arlong)

Incidentally, he used swords in that scene JUST to drive the point home that he sucked with weapons. Though he did temporarily become a decent swordsman at Thriller Bark when he became Nightmare Luffy, but I don't think that should really count since that was a "borrowed" ability....


And not to mention he's not so good with ranged weapons, either. After all, his misuse of a cannon was what made him injure Zeff at East Blue, was it not? Though it's thanks in part to that incident that he got Sanji to join him in the first place....

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by imza

Except for the fact that Luffy doesn't use weapons and there is no hint that he ever would have or would in the future (same goes for many other strong people).

I never said it had to be Luffy defeating logias all the time. Akainu killed Ace so there we have a logia defeating another logia. Also, like Ravagerblade pointed out, it's not impossible for Luffy to use objects other than his own body. He bounces back bullets and canon balls all the time. Against Eneru he had that gold ball he was stuck inside. There's room for anything really. I agree he's not a weapon user though. I never said that he was.

It also seems strategically planned that the first two logias had obvious weaknesses Luffy could exploit and than meet his match later on with other elements, forcing him to grow.

There could always be a different plot device to defeat each logia user other than Haki. It was just a matter of what Oda wanted to write.

The fire logia was mentioned from the very beginning and it's hard to imagine how Luffy was going to find a workaround that one.

That's kind of a moot point since it's a friendly DF user. But like I said, there's always some kind of possibility like a rubber vacuum technique (the absence of Oxygen) or something like that.

The fact that the animal got his arm and that's not really completely consistent with emperors as we know them now is not relevant

actually it's very relevant since that show's it's a retcon. When something in the past wouldn't happen in the current story, it proves that the author retconned the matter.

Clearly Shanks had some ability that was reserved for the super powerful. Now, I don't think Haki was fully fleshed out and Oda played around with some ideas until he settled on what we have now but that's a different claim from saying Haki wasn't planned from the beginning.

yea, you're almost saying what I'm saying here. No one is denying that Shanks showed an intimidation power back then but it's a far stretch from the current Haki power(s) we have now.

If Haki was planned then I think Crocodile would have used it. It's probably as simple as that example.

[Ravagerblade]

Originally Posted by marvelB

Incidentally, he used swords in that scene JUST to drive the point home that he sucked with weapons. Though he did temporarily become a decent swordsman at Thriller Bark when he became Nightmare Luffy, but I don't think that should really count since that was a "borrowed" ability....


And not to mention he's not so good with ranged weapons, either. After all, his misuse of a cannon was what made him injure Zeff at East Blue, was it not? Though it's thanks in part to that incident that he got Sanji to join him in the first place....

I thought his hand slipped and it went to where Zeff was, Stray cannon much.