(CR) Yuri!!! on Ice

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by Moroboshi-kun

No, not really. It is because recent years sports anime makers consciously add in homo-innuendo into the series to attract larger audience. ...
Didn't click as it was based on 70s manga and didn't have any hints of homo-relations.

Actually? Captain Tsubasa already had a pretty large BL following back in the day - yes, back in the day. Nowhere near recent years. And that was Captain Tsubasa, a manga as innocent on this front as it could ever be.

BL fans gravitate toward sports series because they have all the necessary elements to get the shipping and fantasy going: an overwhelmingly male cast, guys having Passionate Male Friendships/Rivalries with other guys, guys fixating on each other, having strong feelings about each other, talking about each other's bodies - there's the whole physical aspect of sports of course, and so on. And you have all the archetypes, the friendships, rivalries, the angst, hot-bloodedness, etc... You just have to mix and match!

Originally Posted by Moroboshi-kun

Remember series Abarenbō Rikishi!! Matsutarō couple of years back? That should've been fujoshi dream: hot beefy guys wrestling only in loinclothes! And to add to the joy Matsutarō was an asshole like any best seme!

No, those guys weren't hot at all. Even the beefiness wasn't hot beefcake. Matsutarou is closer to the usual gay aesthetics (= hot beefy guys, not that all gay guys are into that, of course), not the usual BL aesthetics which gravitate more toward more handsome-and-sexy guys (not that all women are into that, of course). Hell, beefcake itself is a relative newcomer into the BL mainstream, a sign of changing trends; back in the old days a few decades ago you mostly got willowy bishounen with long hair and whatnot, and even beefier guys got slimmer and prettier in doujinshi.

(Also, I'd just like to go on a tangent, and add that while I know that there's this idea that "seme" and "uke" are character types and there are some sort of "rules of yaoi" carved in stone, that's actually bullcrap. Sure, stereotypes are stereotypes for a reason, but there are so many types of seme and uke, and that's not even counting "reversible" where the whole thing is irrelevant... Seme are not necessarily assholes. Just fyi.)

[Cloudedmind]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

Actually? Captain Tsubasa already had a pretty large BL following back in the day - yes, back in the day. Nowhere near recent years. And that was Captain Tsubasa, a manga as innocent on this front as it could ever be.

BL fans gravitate toward sports series because they have all the necessary elements to get the shipping and fantasy going: an overwhelmingly male cast, guys having Passionate Male Friendships/Rivalries with other guys, guys fixating on each other, having strong feelings about each other, talking about each other's bodies - there's the whole physical aspect of sports of course, and so on. And you have all the archetypes, the friendships, rivalries, the angst, hot-bloodedness, etc... You just have to mix and match!

Also this. You explained it better then I (It was late and I was tired, that's my excuse and I'm sticking to it.) But, yeah sports anime and manga are full of plenty of other elements that are likely to get a BL fan going.

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

No, those guys weren't hot at all. Even the beefiness wasn't hot beefcake. Matsutarou is closer to the usual gay aesthetics (= hot beefy guys, not that all gay guys are into that, of course), not the usual BL aesthetics which gravitate more toward more handsome-and-sexy guys (not that all women are into that, of course). Hell, beefcake itself is a relative newcomer into the BL mainstream, a sign of changing trends; back in the old days a few decades ago you mostly got willowy bishounen with long hair and whatnot, and even beefier guys got slimmer and prettier in doujinshi.

(Also, I'd just like to go on a tangent, and add that while I know that there's this idea that "seme" and "uke" are character types and there are some sort of "rules of yaoi" carved in stone, that's actually bullcrap. Sure, stereotypes are stereotypes for a reason, but there are so many types of seme and uke, and that's not even counting "reversible" where the whole thing is irrelevant... Seme are not necessarily assholes. Just fyi.)

If people want to see a sports anime full of beefcake, that's likely to have a decent showing at the next comiket among BL mangaka, then look no further then this seasons All Out!. But with Haikyuu and Days (not to mention Touken Ranbu, although not a sports show) also airing this season it'll probably get over shadowed. Nonetheless it'll be interesting to see what the offerings are at the next big doujin event.

(Stereotypes was a poor choice of words on my part, archetypes or character types probably would have been better choices. But, I think my initial point to Gan_HOPE326 about character types like Yuri being just as prevalent in BL still holds true. But I get your point and agree. I have a thing for switch/reversible couples myself.)

[BPD Renegade]

Originally Posted by Cloudedmind

(Stereotypes was a poor choice of words on my part, archetypes or character types probably would have been better choices. But, I think my initial point to Gan_HOPE326 about character types like Yuri being just as prevalent in BL still holds true. But I get your point and agree. I have a thing for switch/reversible couples myself.)

Yes, archetypes is a much better term. Calling Yuri a "stereotypical uke" implies all the bad connotations typical of a shitty BL uke: the blushing flower with no agency who learns to wholeheartedly embrace the usually abusive seme; the end. If we switch it out for archetype, then I do agree with the statements about Yuri being an archetype of an uke.

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

BL fans gravitate toward sports series because they have all the necessary elements to get the shipping and fantasy going: an overwhelmingly male cast, guys having Passionate Male Friendships/Rivalries with other guys, guys fixating on each other, having strong feelings about each other, talking about each other's bodies - there's the whole physical aspect of sports of course, and so on. And you have all the archetypes, the friendships, rivalries, the angst, hot-bloodedness, etc... You just have to mix and match!

I was a bit lost as to how exactly sports anime align with BL stereotypes; for the life of me, I couldn't see the subtext in Daiya no A or Haikyuu, but this... actually makes sense. Thanks for that.

(Also, I'd just like to go on a tangent, and add that while I know that there's this idea that "seme" and "uke" are character types and there are some sort of "rules of yaoi" carved in stone, that's actually bullcrap. Sure, stereotypes are stereotypes for a reason, but there are so many types of seme and uke, and that's not even counting "reversible" where the whole thing is irrelevant... Seme are not necessarily assholes. Just fyi.)

But unfortunately, this oversimplification is prevalent across pretty much all genres, because let's face it, for every quality work in a genre, there are dozens more that aren't and which rely on shitty stereotypes to crawl their way forwards. If we hear an anime is a "harem" or "reverse harem" or a "shoujo/shonen" what are usually the first assumptions on our minds about the plot or characters? It's no different than the assumptions made when people hear something is "yaoi."

[Cloudedmind]

Originally Posted by BPD Renegade

Yes, archetypes is a much better term. Calling Yuri a "stereotypical uke" implies all the bad connotations typical of a shitty BL uke: the blushing flower with no agency who learns to wholeheartedly embrace the usually abusive seme; the end. If we switch it out for archetype, then I do agree with the statements about Yuri being an archetype of an uke.

Yes, but I didn't say he was a stereotype of an uke, just that he was a stereotype in BL. Different things.

[BPD Renegade]

Originally Posted by Cloudedmind

Yes, but I didn't say he was a stereotype of an uke, just that he was a stereotype in BL. Different things.

I meant that in response to what this guy was saying about my attempt to analyze the characters:

Originally Posted by Moroboshi-kun

WTF?

Victor is your basic overbearing seme. Japanese Yuri is your basic reluctant and shy uke. Russian Yuri is your basic reluctant and aggressive uke.

All extremely standard stuff in any yaoi-anime.

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by Cloudedmind

(Stereotypes was a poor choice of words on my part, archetypes or character types probably would have been better choices. But, I think my initial point to Gan_HOPE326 about character types like Yuri being just as prevalent in BL still holds true. But I get your point and agree. I have a thing for switch/reversible couples myself.)

Ah, I meant that as a response to Moroboshi-kun saying that Matsutarou is an asshole like any seme.

Originally Posted by BPD Renegade

I was a bit lost as to how exactly sports anime align with BL stereotypes; for the life of me, I couldn't see the subtext in Daiya no A or Haikyuu, but this... actually makes sense. Thanks for that.

Hah, you don't need subtext in the actual canon, fans will happily don their shipping goggles and supply all the subtext on their own. They have since the beginnings, really, which is why it's silly to claim that sports (or any other) manga have BL fans because of "homo pandering" or whatever. It's the other way around, guys.

Originally Posted by BPD Renegade

But unfortunately, this oversimplification is prevalent across pretty much all genres, because let's face it, for every quality work in a genre, there are dozens more that aren't and which rely on shitty stereotypes to crawl their way forwards. If we hear an anime is a "harem" or "reverse harem" or a "shoujo/shonen" what are usually the first assumptions on our minds about the plot or characters? It's no different than the assumptions made when people hear something is "yaoi."

Weeell, anime is one thing, but personally when I hear "shoujo" I think of stuff like Requiem of the Rose King, or Earl Cain first... (And then I look at anime and am very disappointed to see only fantasy adventure romances or high school melodrama romances getting adapted, boo.) My personal understanding of "shounen" also skews toward the non-Jump styles... Seriously though, I'm very much against this sort of stereotyping because it gives way to misunderstandings, and distorted views and ideas, taking attention away from the non-stereotypical stuff. So many people say "bah I won't touch anything shoujo" when they actually mean "I don't like sparkly romances/high-school melodramas", but then this person will also exclude all the shoujo manga which are neither...

[Arya]

It was a fun episode. The humor worked with me and I sense a general awareness about overlooking certain aspects like Russians speaking japanese fluently or coming alone from there to here unnoticed for both of the guys. And for now I'm taking the BL strong tones in the same vein as also semi-serious tones.

Yuuri is a huge fan of Victor to the point to mimic him and is program. I find interesting how they juxtaposed russian!Yuri who seems someone who won't listen to anyone so probably not even Victor with local!Yuri that instead will follow Victor blindly to hell.
I hope the show will make local!yuri to grow up and find his own tune.

I thought I would have hated the three twins, childhood NTRed friend's daughters, instead they are enough over-the-top to be funny on their own

[Moroboshi-kun]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

BL fans gravitate toward sports series because they have all the necessary elements to get the shipping and fantasy going...

No, that has not been done any more for decades.

Since 90s it has become a deliberate writing act to add homo-innuendo into any kind of shōnen-series (not only sports series), so much that a new term was famously coined to describe this phenomenon: "neo-shōnen". Nowadays it almost feels like unwritten rule that eg any Shōnen Jump series has to have implied homo-relations to keep the fujoshi readers buying. Therefore there is no more "gravitation", it is all part of the plan.

Yuri!!! on Ice is different of course, they have dropped any innuendo from get-go and dived right down to your basic yaoi-series with cookie-cutter character stereotypes. Sometimes I wish somebody would create anime with more variety to the boringly pedestrian aggressive seme x whining uke -scenario but it is certainly not happening here.

[kuromitsu]

This is getting off-topic, but anyway.

Originally Posted by Moroboshi-kun

No, that has not been done any more for decades.

And you can claim this with such conviction because...? Are you intimately familiar with the Japanese BL fandom and its workings? Are you in the BL fandom, or do you just really like conspiracy theories? Going by how you seemed to think that something like Matsutarou is a "fujoshi wet dream" which is about as hilariously misguided as it gets, I'm assuming the latter, but do correct me if I'm wrong.

Originally Posted by Moroboshi-kun

Since 90s it has become a deliberate writing act to add homo-innuendo into any kind of shōnen-series (not only sports series), so much that a new term was famously coined to describe this phenomenon: "neo-shōnen".

So famously in fact, that googling possible variations of this expression in Japanese gave me no relevant results at all!

Anyway, I like how this theory so confidently dismisses so many things about the state of things in the '90s. Like for example how BL wasn't nearly as mainstream (for the given value of "mainstream" of course) as it is now. As someone who was already into this stuff in the late '90s (I'm old, shut up) I wish we'd had the kind of thoughtfulness from publishers that you imagine we had. It's taken quite a while for female otaku to be recognized as the buying force they are, and that's when the industry started to actively cater to female fans in general (so not BL fans only).

Originally Posted by Moroboshi-kun

Nowadays it almost feels like unwritten rule that eg any Shōnen Jump series has to have implied homo-relations to keep the fujoshi readers buying. Therefore there is no more "gravitation", it is all part of the plan.

So I take it you missed Super Lovers earlier this year? Or the Doukyuusei anime film? Or both seasons of Sekaiichi Hatsukoi? Or hell, Gakuen Heaven, to take it a few years back? Or, wait for it, the tons of BL manga, games, drama CDs, etc. being released all the time? Also, I haven't been reading Jump for a while now, but I wonder that those who do also agree that say, Nisekoi had "implied homo-relations". Or Boku no Hero Academia, I'm sure someone who has read it can weigh on how incredibly gay it must be. Or Isobe Isobee...

I like the "plan", though, like, you're saying that there's this industry-wide conspiracy in works since the '90s, wherein the industry has been grooming female readers who have an affinity toward BL to read stuff they normally wouldn't have been interested in? (Like, series with... a male main cast... clearly nobody would have thought of picking something like that up by herself...) That's kind of charmingly misguided. I mean, do you know what also had fairly active BL fandoms in the early '00s? Fullmetal Alchemist, for example. I'm not seeing the swathes of "homo-innuendo" in the FMA manga. (or hell, the anime) Or there's Hellsing, for example, do you think someone went up to Hirano Kouta and said, "hey, add some homoerotic innuendo between Andersen and Alucard will you"? It must have happened, given the fandom Hellsing had. (Oh wait, Alucard did tell Andersen that he would have given him his heart! It all makes sense now! ) Or there's Rurouni Kenshin, do you think Watsuki Nobuhiro was instructed to stealthily add "homo-innuendo" between... well, basically all male characters?

Originally Posted by Moroboshi-kun

Yuri!!! on Ice is different of course, they have dropped any innuendo from get-go and dived right down to your basic yaoi-series

So where was all the sex? All we got in the first episode was a naked dude in an onsen.

Originally Posted by Moroboshi-kun

Sometimes I wish somebody would create anime with more variety to the boringly pedestrian aggressive seme x whining uke -scenario but it is certainly not happening here.

I'm not sure we're watching the same series, but anyway, a number of people seem to have missed the note and are writing and drawing Viktor as uke. To the supposedly whining uke Yuuri, of all people. Damn, those silly fangirls can't even recognize when something is being stuffed down their throat! (In any case, forgive me but I can't really take your claims seriously when you keep calling Viktor an "aggressive seme". Hahaha.)

By the way, just for note: I'm not saying that there's no conscious decision to make certain series "inviting" for BL fandom. There obviously is. But you're mixing up cause and effect, and frankly come across as kind of paranoid re: BL.

But since this is already very off-topic I'm bowing out of this discussion.

[Gan_HOPE326]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

Also, I haven't been reading Jump for a while now, but I wonder that those who do also agree that say, Nisekoi had "implied homo-relations". Or Boku no Hero Academia, I'm sure someone who has read it can weigh on how incredibly gay it must be. Or Isobe Isobee...

The only recent shonen manga that I feel really played the yaoi-bait angle to try and get a strong female fandom is Naruto. I mean, one thing that ALL shonen manga did was transition from a physical type of buff, muscular heroes to one of slender, feminine ones, but that's just a change in overall aesthetic sense. Besides that... one could argue something for Bleach but it would be pretty weak, perhaps Renji/Ichigo or Ishida/Ichigo? And oh, Death Note surely went there purposefully with the whole Light/L thing. But little else comes to mind. Of the three major shonen series I am aware of now, setting aside One Piece that was always completely non-romantic, namely Shokugeki no Souma, Nanatsu no Taizai and Boku no Hero Academia, neither has anything resembling true BL-bait. In fact the first two have abundant male-oriented fanservice (though Souma also provides something for the ladies in that regard), and BnH is pretty neutral either way, unless you REALLY want to read a lot into Deku and Bakugo's rivalry.

[LKK]

Okay, everyone, the discussion has practically fallen off the table, it's gone so far off-topic. How's about we get back to discussing Yuri On Ice?

[orion]

Originally Posted by LKK

Okay, everyone, the discussion has practically fallen off the table, it's gone so far off-topic. How's about we get back to discussing Yuri On Ice?

Thank you!!!!!!!!!

[Dop]

Yes, let's talk about actual story.
One thing that occurred to me given the opening title sequence, and the fact that figure skating pairs are only male/female, maybe the whole "make history" part will be having the two yuris compete in the pair competition - which in current regulations isn't allowed so that really WOULD make history. Be interesting to see if they take that angle.

[orion]

Originally Posted by Dop

Yes, let's talk about actual story.
One thing that occurred to me given the opening title sequence, and the fact that figure skating pairs are only male/female, maybe the whole "make history" part will be having the two yuris compete in the pair competition - which in current regulations isn't allowed so that really WOULD make history. Be interesting to see if they take that angle.

But there are 3 of them on that ice rink. Both Yuris are in the same uniform and Victor is dressed differently. (Could this be foreshadowing the ice program in 1 week?)

Maybe Victor and Japanese Yuri will be dancing together and that's how Victor will surprise his audience.

[BPD Renegade]

Originally Posted by Dop

Yes, let's talk about actual story.
One thing that occurred to me given the opening title sequence, and the fact that figure skating pairs are only male/female, maybe the whole "make history" part will be having the two yuris compete in the pair competition - which in current regulations isn't allowed so that really WOULD make history. Be interesting to see if they take that angle.

Endless Night did have the skater paired up with himself, so it's not an entirely impossible route, but I kind of doubt that's going to happen. So far, the story seems more focused on Yuri and the characters than breaking ground in the skating world. It seems like they would need another season if they wanted to do something like this.

Originally Posted by LKK

Okay, everyone, the discussion has practically fallen off the table, it's gone so far off-topic. How's about we get back to discussing Yuri On Ice?

This had me laughing for a good long while. I was wondering how many people we had scared off with all this talk of seme and uke.

[Arya]

Originally Posted by Dop

Yes, let's talk about actual story.
One thing that occurred to me given the opening title sequence, and the fact that figure skating pairs are only male/female, maybe the whole "make history" part will be having the two yuris compete in the pair competition - which in current regulations isn't allowed so that really WOULD make history. Be interesting to see if they take that angle.

Well, in official competitions the different country would be the major obstacle; limit you wouldn't have on ice galas I suppose.

[orion]

Originally Posted by Arya

Well, in official competitions the different country would be the major obstacle; limit you wouldn't have on ice galas I suppose.

What about a skater with dual citizenship?

[karice67]

Originally Posted by orion

What about a skater with dual citizenship?

Also not plausible as a plot point. The figure skating Grand Prix is an ISU competition, which means that, whilst not having citizenship is not an issue (unlike the Olympics), skaters are required to "wait up to two years between representing countries and must meet residency requirements in order to represent his or her new country."

And that's not even dealing with the issue that changing disciplines (men's to pairs in this case) involves learning a whole host of new elements, which competitors normally take years to polish.

I know most people were joking, but if any of you weren't...

[Arya]

Originally Posted by orion

What about a skater with dual citizenship?

mmm, from what I know, but I'm not an expert or anything, generally in these cases you have to chose in which national team you want to compete. In advance.

But even so specifically for this anime it doesn't seem anyone falls into this case.
Well, unless you weren't looking at it being earned by marriage, but considering the homophobic politics adopted by Russia I doubt it would result with a dual citizenship for anyone involved.
Certainly if the anime followed this path it wouldn't break just the ground of the skating world

Originally Posted by karice67

And that's not even dealing with the issue that changing disciplines (men's to pairs in this case) involves learning a whole host of new elements, which competitors normally take years to polish.

I know most people were joking, but if any of you weren't...

I completely missed the technical issue of changing discipline; that actually could be reasonably the biggest obstacle.

[zztop]

Main anime website for Yuri on Ice lists 6 Bluray/DVDs releases, from Dec 2016 - May 2017. Likely this'll be 12 eps.
http://yurionice.com/discography/

Apparently figure skater Evgenia Medvedeva really enjoys watching Yuri too, along with other animes in general.
http://www.crunchyroll.com/anime-new...th-yuri-on-ice

PS. She did a Sailor Moon-themed skating routine in Japan back in July 2016 - it was so impressive, even Takeuchi Naoko came in person to greet her.
http://www.crunchyroll.com/anime-new...spired-routine