(CR) Alice to Zouroku

[Tenzen12]

No, Zoroku's friend explicitly said both him and people backing Minnie are government this very episode. Not to mention they wouldn't be able manipulate median without it .

[Nachtwandler]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

No, Zoroku's friend explicitly said both change him and people backing Minnie are government this very episode. Not to mention they wouldn't be able manipulate median without it .

This. Ryuu clearly said that there are two factionsingovernment: one who thinks thaty this espers should have similaR rights to norrmal humans and ones who deem them dangerous and want to use tham for experiments instead.

[Blueknight78]

Originally Posted by Nachtwandler

This. Ryuu clearly said that there are two factionsingovernment: one who thinks thaty this espers should have similaR rights to norrmal humans and ones who deem them dangerous and want to use tham for experiments instead.

yeah, we have 2 factions being backed by the government, not just the "evil" both evil and good have help from government just "diferent sides of it", this means which things could swing in both side and in the worst case, if the esper thing turn in a public thing and is no more possible to hidden it, i really doubt the government could still on the "evil side" after everyone knew what they where doing, in both case the government is safe but evil side is the one which have the bigger chance to fall apart in the worst case scene, due to possible public turn against them and forcing the goverment take on the public side, the govern not gonna be stupid to go "against the peoples" they will follow what the public follow, what gonna matter wil be the "mass".

[Tenzen12]

In first place all "evil organization" does is keeping potentionaly dangerous and immature kids under surveillance. And it would be pretty hard prove there is any mistreatment. Especially as all "real" kids in question are pretty content where they are.

Well that thing Alice saw, but we don't actually know if anyone was hurt or what was that she seen in first place.

[Blueknight78]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

In first place all "evil organization" does is keeping potentionaly dangerous and immature kids under surveillance. And it would be pretty hard prove there is any mistreatment. Especially as all "real" kids in question are pretty content where they are.

Well that thing Alice saw, but we don't actually know if anyone was hurt or what was that she seen in first place.

they where not just keep them under surveilance, they also doing "experiments with then" specially sana, she was pretty much the "gineas pig of them, they not full evil but the fact which they keep her "locked" against her will already is enough to be considered "kidnapping and false imprisonment, if they had allowed sana to have the same freedom as the others "kids' and less "ginea pig" maybe things could not get on that and she could be happy with them as the others kids.

remember only the "others kids" where happy and being "receiving good treatment" sana was "another story.

[Tenzen12]

Sana is not human remember? she doesn't have any rights, she is just mimic and it's pretty much impossible say if that free will of hers is even real deal.

And of course they run tests and experiments on them. But what about that? There is no proofs these experiments were invasive or harmful in any way. They had non human specimen for that, so as far as they can prove this they are safe.

[Blueknight78]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

Sana is not human remember? she doesn't have any rights, she is just mimic and it's pretty much impossible say if that free will of hers is even real deal.

And of course they run tests and experiments on them. But what about that? There is no proofs these experiments were invasive or harmful in any way. They had non human specimen for that, so as far as they can prove this they are safe.

again that "she is not human" don't have to do with false imprisonment and kiddinapping that rule also is aplied to animals too in many countries, if you do that to animals you can also be jailed then this means which this can go aswell for her, again you are take "too literally' the "human" word as garanted which no laws can be applied to her or the others spers(not just her), many laws can cover her without her need to be a "human".

and as you told "so faar is they can proof it, but if also the other side can proof which they are doing invasive experiments specially in sana then the things can go bad for then otherwise they could not be afraid of peoples find about them and keep hidding everything as they are doing if all they actions are "legals" as you are making it look then have no point try to hide it.
and so far she not being a human like the others spers is just expeculation from the scientists since they just find her alone without family and herself don't have any memory if she have family, she could be actually like minnie and someone which just got powers.

[Tenzen12]

Well, if Sana is animal, they are owner and of course keeping "animal" in "pen" is legal. Not to mention as long as organisation follow 3R they should be fine even with experiments even if they get bit rougher. Though treating her as animal is rather insulting, you know...

[Blueknight78]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

Well, if Sana is animal, they are owner and of course keeping "animal" in "pen" is legal. Not to mention as long as organisation follow 3R they should be fine even with experiments even if they get bit rougher. Though treating her as animal is rather insulting, you know...

well i was nothing say which she is a animal or must be threated as one, what i wanted to means is which some laws almost don't matter if you are human or not, as long you are not a virus or bactery, or something like that, some of the things they are doing are illegal, specially the kidnapping and minnie threatening/bully/torturing sana, again some rules means human not just because only humans, but because they come from the premisa which "humans" are the one rational or enouguth rational race in our world to be applied or what is matter is the country, for exemple in my country sana could be consedered a human no matter how they tried to "say something" and be protected from then.

what she is not gonna matter in some cases for some laws the fact which she is being threatened will be enought and they know that, that is why they keep the things at secret.

[Tenzen12]

So does "good guys". Are you implying they they would be finished too if truth were come to light? Until there is enough information what is this all about of course everything related to "Alice's dream" to avoid public panic and witch hunts. And while "good guys" might have intent
to make it public eventually and "bad guys" not reasons to keep it secret is likely decision of government regardless of factions.

[Blueknight78]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

So does "good guys". Are you implying they they would be finished too if truth were come to light? Until there is enough information what is this all about of course everything related to "Alice's dream" to avoid public panic and witch hunts. And while "good guys" might have intent
to make it public eventually and "bad guys" not reasons to keep it secret is likely decision of government regardless of factions.

well yeah both sides have reasons to keep everything at secret for now, the good sides want to avoid the panic and witch hunter and better acceptance from public to the espers while the evil want keep doing they researchs in the end the government will be the bigger winner which don't matter which side can wins they will be "on that side"

another thing which we can't forget is which sana was not the only one being held captive but also zouroku too and she also told which she had plans for him too since he is close to her, this means which she could have used him as hostage to force sana do what they want, if not for sana itself then for the old geese mc.

[Flower]

In a way I don't think Zouroku is approaching the subject from the angle of a particular nation's law as the grounds for bringing up whether or no Minnie C's choice to shoot Sana in the leg and shatter her ankle was one that could qualify her more as a monster than the objective nature of Sana's origin. Zouroku is arguing from a completely different angle - one of a "commonly understood moral code or way of behavior".

Whether or no an individual viewer agrees either with his angle on things subjectively or if such a thing exists objectively are separate issues. I feel the anime itself is presenting Zouroku's perspective as the "right" one, especially in contrasting it with Minnie C's.

In Minnie C's articulated rationalization shown in the anime episode proper the mere fact that Sana is not human and is extremely dangerous somehow seemed that it excuses or gives her license to do what she was doing. And lets not fool ourselves - there were times when she was enjoying the process of humiliation, gloating and subdual intermixed with her more split second decisions (like to shoot Sana). In other words, there was the fact that she felt Sana was not human and dangerous AND the fact that she enjoyed some aspects of what she was doing. Those ae two completely different things.

And in this light it matters not tuppence what Minnie C has gone through. There are others who have experienced such things and do not behave in such a manner. One can (and should, I think) of course empathize and strive to understand where she is coming from and such. But that only goes so far, and (again) in no way "excuses" either the split second, calculated shooting of Sana nor her glee in humiliation, gloating and subduing Sana the way she did.

The series is actually touching very generally on a common technique that people adopt (and soldiers too are famous for being able to adopt this) is the "objectification" of someone/something, which then by extension somehow "makes it alright" to act or behave towards it/them/whatever the way they do. Sometimes this is adopted as a self-defense mechanism to shield one from the ramifications of their activities, other times it is an excuse for them to indulge in the aspects of their behavior they normally might not do, and sometimes there is a mix of both involved.

I believe the anime is presenting that perspective as something negative and undesirable and giving Zouroku's perspective based on his "common morality" or "values" or whatever one might call it, and holding the latter up as the "answer". More than that Zouroku's "humanity" is shown as something Sana "needs" to more fully become the sort of creature she wants to be.

Again - agreeing or disagreeing with what the anime is presenting is a separate issue in my opinon.

[Tenzen12]

Of course Zoroku's is right and Minnie wrong. I think everyone can agree with that at least.

[DemonneoPT]

Damn, this became much more interesting after seeing episodes 3 and 4!! And hiring Elsa (Re:Zero)/Clementine's (Overlord) VA for Minnie C was pure genius. That women found the perfect tone for evil biatches..lol

I understand Minnie's viewpoint regarding Sana tho. She sees her as as a weapon of mass destruction with unknown origin in the body of a little girl. However, unlike Minnie, we had episode 2 and all of Sana's interactions with the cast to know she is actually a nice person incapable of consciously harming others. She still has a mind of a child and her powers are indeed dangerous but i'm inclined to agree with the government faction that is trying to test how this superhumans can fit in the society before locking them away just because they are different.

What i did not understand was if the scientists are an independent group or are part of the other government faction...

[orion]

Originally Posted by DemonneoPT

<snip>.

What i did not understand was if the scientists are an independent group or are part of the other government faction...

I think that Minnie C's faction is working with the US government which is why it's hard for the Japanese government to do anything.

[AB079]

Episode 5 was incredibly good, it started with the fight against Minnie C, the animation was great and the way how Ichijo used different abilities confirmed there are even more powerful users out there. The maid really stomped over Minnie and we finally get her real feelings, basically she cannot advance in her life after losing the person she loved the most, twisting herself in a really bad way making her a merciless person but in the end Minnie C just wants to be with her husband again.

Now in the second half Zoukoru and Sana finally went back to their lifes, obviously is not the same as always but now Sana has a family and someone who can take care of her and knows her feelings. She can be a weapon, something that isn't human but still deserve a life.

It seems there are 2 organizations here, one that hides in the shadows and used Minnie C and other users while the goverment side (?) is trying to take care of the dream users.

[Sides]

SNICKERS!
That is why, you should have always a bar snickers with you everywhere you go. It is a lifesaver

[Flower]

Ep 05

First Carl's Jr and now Snickers, eh? Well, no complaints from me. XD

I also really enjoyed episode 5, and really, if they had just turned this into one of those older 6 episode series (ep 1 was effectively 2 eps long, if you remember) it would have been a nice package. Am interested to see where they take the story from here.

It was nice to see how they gave Minnie C more depth instead of just being a sadistic cardboard'y villain in the past few episodes. While I was frankly rather revolted by her enjoyment in torturing Sana last ep in this ep I found myself feeling empathy for her - she was broken, she knew she was broken, but she couldn't stop herself (she said something like that if I remember correctly).

There was more to it than that, but I kinda was able to pick up the very strong human grief and pain she was experiencing. Sometimes people respond to death like that, it's true.

That being said, I thought the showdown between Ichijou and Minnie C was quite good!

[Blueknight78]

ok things goes almost exactly as i predicated, minnie C got beat but i was not expectating she being trashed like that by ichijo, on that subject then the maid which we see on first episode helping sanae and now where actually ichijo??? she have a "normal form" and a battle maid form???, that is where i get confuse, she is too damn powerfull, if ichijo alone is strong like that, imagine others "dreamers users" how strong/dangerous they can be??? this make sanae look really "too weak" or not "so dangerous" compared with that others.

then again inside my predictions the "scientists" get shot down, once the "good side" started to move, probably they where just waiting for a chance to do that and the organization kidnaping sanae was more than enough to give then a reason to shut down the organization and as i told minne was arrested by kidnapping sanae cuz obvious it is really a "legal issue" no matter what sanae is, still a kidnap and a action passive to local government law which obvious goes on sanae side and shut down the laboratory, now the question is "what gonna happen" with the others childrens and the glasses guy???, since he got jailed, what gonna happens with the others kids??? they gonna back to they families??(if tyhey have) i'm really curious on that.

maybe the government can put then on zouruko protection and make him go a sort of "sper day care center" lol, poor zorokus, getting a sort of "little childrens harem"

[DmonHiro]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

Sana is not human remember? she doesn't have any rights, she is just mimic and it's pretty much impossible say if that free will of hers is even real deal.

You kidnapped a little girl and when caught you say it's OK because she's not really human so you can do whatever you want to her.

How do you think that would go down?