[Spoilers] Jiraiya Genius?

[airor]

kid I know is in college, he's 13. Both his parents are professors

I'd still take the dude who's been designing airplanes his entire life if I had to fly on the plane over a "genius" with 200+ IQ.

IQ is a flawed measurement. It measures a certain type of cognitive capacity, it's like trying to find out how smart someone is by their aptitude with Jeopardy / Crossword puzzles. It only tells you how good they are at that particular thing, not how smart they are in general.

[cheese4u]

Originally Posted by airor

kid I know is in college, he's 13. Both his parents are professors

I'd still take the dude who's been designing airplanes his entire life if I had to fly on the plane over a "genius" with 200+ IQ.

IQ is a flawed measurement. It measures a certain type of cognitive capacity, it's like trying to find out how smart someone is by their aptitude with Jeopardy / Crossword puzzles. It only tells you how good they are at that particular thing, not how smart they are in general.

Yeah, Neji is a genius, but he got outsmarted by Naruto, the exact opposite of a genius.

[airor]

For the record, I beat that kid at chess too! (he wasn't even that good)

And my IQ is not 200+

[rasedori]

jiraiya is a genius because he was taught by the third and he taught the fourth. he is also the one who alerted konoha of akatsuki.

[Rachy]

I would have thought Jiraiya and Rock Lee are both genius's.

[airor]

let me put it this way:

Lex Luthor == Genius

Superman == Not a genius

Superman > Lex Luthor

Any questoins?

[Rachy]

Originally Posted by airor

let me put it this way:

Lex Luthor == Genius

Superman == Not a genius

Superman > Lex Luthor

Any questoins?

This isn't Superman so it doesn't matter.

[airor]

yes but it distinguishes genius from power, something you haven't done yet.

[Rachy]

It doesnt matter if it does, because they're different shows.

However, Jiraiya is a genius because he can preform alot of jutsu's that only genius's can learn, and has alot of chakra.

Rock lee is a genius because he can use the gates which Neji couldn't even do.

[Luminion Lancer]

Originally Posted by uchiha rave

This isn't Superman so it doesn't matter.

-Actually yes it does. Granted it is a different fictional universe but the same laws apply. Let's clarify it with the Neji vs Naruto example. Neji is considered a Hyuuga prodigy (in other words a genius) when it comes to being a ninja. Naruto is his extreme opposite, a total dunce. Yet Naruto is the one that came out on top during their fight. So do we consider Naruto a genius now that he beat one? No. As airor said, you don't need to be smarter than a genius to beat them, sometimes a sheer force of will and determination (and unbelieveable power) are enough.

[Hunter]

Genius is about exceptional intellect and/or talent.
Talent is about innate ability.
Jiraiya is about guts, determination and hard work. Not about natural born fighter.
And thus by definition isn't a genius.
This is exaclty the difference between Gai and Kakashi even thought they're about equal in overall strength for example.


Now obviously the very definition of words matters not in front of people's incomprehensible wish to see [insert some loved character's name(s)] being a genius.
Whatever.

[Rachy]

-Actually yes it does. Granted it is a different fictional universe but the same laws apply. Let's clarify it with the Neji vs Naruto example. Neji is considered a Hyuuga prodigy (in other words a genius) when it comes to being a ninja. Naruto is his extreme opposite, a total dunce. Yet Naruto is the one that came out on top during their fight. So do we consider Naruto a genius now that he beat one? No. As airor said, you don't need to be smarter than a genius to beat them, sometimes a sheer force of will and determination (and unbelieveable power) are enough.

Naruto's kinda of genius's dont really matter about "smartness" just because the main character beat someone in a certain way doesn't mean it'll always turn out like that, Naruto in a way has shown signs he's a genius and then Neji said he was careless.

[airor]

Naruto's kinda of genius's dont really matter about "smartness" just because the main character beat someone in a certain way doesn't mean it'll always turn out like that, Naruto in a way has shown signs he's a genius and then Neji said he was careless.

You are a genius of ignorance and denial.

[Zek]

Originally Posted by uchiha rave

Naruto's kinda of genius's dont really matter about "smartness" just because the main character beat someone in a certain way doesn't mean it'll always turn out like that, Naruto in a way has shown signs he's a genius and then Neji said he was careless.

What signs he's a genius? You mean when Naruto wins the fight and then starts talking about his complete lack of talent?

[cheese4u]

Originally Posted by uchiha rave

Naruto's kinda of genius's dont really matter about "smartness" just because the main character beat someone in a certain way doesn't mean it'll always turn out like that, Naruto in a way has shown signs he's a genius and then Neji said he was careless.

Any character can show any signs that he's anything, but that doesn't make him that thing. In Naruto genius has everything to do with smartness, its true that Naruto is smart in many ways but no one in the show has ever called him a genius. A genius is some one who is born with exceptional talent in a certain thing or in many things. Kikashi is a genius (developed his own technique, graduated Nin acad. at 5 or 6, became Jounin at 13.) Itachi is a genius (graduated nin. acad. at 7 became Chuunin and mastered Sharingan at 8, became ANBU squad leader and obtained Mangekyo Sharingan at 13). Neji is a genius (superior knowledge of the human intellect, created techniques for Byakugan from scratch, became the only one of the twelve konoha genin to become jounin post time skip.) Naruto is not a genius(failed Ninja exam three or four times in a row, as stated by Kikashi has little knowledge of the basics, easily falls into traps.) If Naruto was a genius he wouldn't have to put his body on the line against non geniuses.

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Genius is about exceptional intellect and/or talent.
Talent is about innate ability.
Jiraiya is about guts, determination and hard work. Not about natural born fighter.
And thus by definition isn't a genius.
This is exaclty the difference between Gai and Kakashi even thought they're about equal in overall strength for example.


Now obviously the very definition of words matters not in front of people's incomprehensible wish to see [insert some loved character's name(s)] being a genius.
Whatever.

First, hard work is not something that fits Jiraiya, especially with the peeping stuff he has been doing and the time/mind work he has dedicated on that since he was a child. Especially, compared to Orochimaru, his dedication and hard work can be considered to be almost inexistent. I would like to ask, if Orochimaru's dedication/concentration/work ethics have been exchanged with Jiraiya's, who would be considered as a bigger genius?

To me, if any person, with no "extraordinary physical or spiritual advantage", can reach the level of Hokage, he/she deserves the right to be considered as a genius. Someone who does not have a good combination of talent, genius, dedication, etc. cannot become a Hokage, unless he is blessed with a demon within (and we know Jiraiya does not have any extraordinary physical or spiritual advantage compared to Itachi or Naruto).

Now back to the definition of genius, I believe what you give is not the only definition that refers to the word genius. All the available definitions from webster are given below:

1. Someone who has exceptional intellectual ability and originality.
2. Unusual mental ability.
3. Someone who is dazzlingly skilled in any field.
4. Exceptional creative ability.
5. A natural talent.

You are good in selecting the definition based on your needs, just like anybody (so it is hard to understand the need for what you mentioned at the end), I believe you should take into account all the available definitions.

If you check "all" the "definitions", you will see that there is even one that specifies "skill", which does not actually refer to something you are born with, now does it? Since you enjoy definitions, let's check what does skill refer to: "An ability that has been 'acquired' by training." Now, can we consider Jiraiya as a skilled person? I think so.

Even if you wish to ignore that Jiraiya should have born with natural talents and abilities (for instance, the way he created his frog stomach summoning jutsu has to result from an average or below-average creative ability according to [well, let's not point fingers]) to reach his level - a.k.a. Hokage level, then you should at least accept the skill part which classifies Jiraiya as a genius according to the dictionary.

[cheese4u]

Originally Posted by Sazelyt

First, hard work is not something that fits Jiraiya, especially with the peeping stuff he has been doing and the time/mind work he has dedicated on that since he was a child. Especially, compared to Orochimaru, his dedication and hard work can be considered to be almost inexistent. I would like to ask, if Orochimaru's dedication/concentration/work ethics have been exchanged with Jiraiya's, who would be considered as a bigger genius?

To me, if any person, with no "extraordinary physical or spiritual advantage", can reach the level of Hokage, he/she deserves the right to be considered as a genius. Someone who does not have a good combination of talent, genius, dedication, etc. cannot become a Hokage, unless he is blessed with a demon within (and we know Jiraiya does not have any extraordinary physical or spiritual advantage compared to Itachi or Naruto).

Now back to the definition of genius, I believe what you give is not the only definition that refers to the word genius. All the available definitions from webster are given below:

1. Someone who has exceptional intellectual ability and originality.
2. Unusual mental ability.
3. Someone who is dazzlingly skilled in any field.
4. Exceptional creative ability.
5. A natural talent.

You are good in selecting the definition based on your needs, just like anybody (so it is hard to understand the need for what you mentioned at the end), I believe you should take into account all the available definitions.

If you check "all" the "definitions", you will see that there is even one that specifies "skill", which does not actually refer to something you are born with, now does it? Since you enjoy definitions, let's check what does skill refer to: "An ability that has been 'acquired' by training." Now, can we consider Jiraiya as a skilled person? I think so.

Even if you wish to ignore that Jiraiya should have born with natural talents and abilities to reach his level - a.k.a. Hokage level, then you should at least accept the skill part which classifies Jiraiya as a genius according to the dictionary.

First off, Jiraiya doesn't have to work hard anymore, he retired and became a toad hermit. Just because he doesn't work hard now doesn't mean he's never worked hard in his entire life. Can you honestly say that one can acquire Hokage level by peeping at women. According to what you're saying genius can be defined as someone who is "dazzlingly skilled" (I assume that's the one you're referring to), and you go on to say that skill is something that can be acquired through training (which is true). But there are lot of people in Naruto who is dazzlingly skilled at something, Naruto is dazz. skilled at kage bunshin, Rock Lee is dazz. skilled at taijutsu, Kisame is dazz. skilled at water jutsu, I could go on for days. The fact is everyone has something that they are dazz. skilled at if they didn't they wouldn't have made it this far in the show, so are we to assume that everyone in the show is a genius. You have to draw the line somewhere, you can't just say because someone is good at something that makes them a genius. Besides that definition is one of many definitions (as you said), but even though that maybe true for real life it might not be true for this show. This show only categorizes genius by one definition (more or less), and I don't think it's acquired skill through hard work. If what you're saying is true than you're saying that anyone can become a genius through hard work.

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by cheese4u

First off, Jiraiya doesn't have to work hard anymore, he retired and became a toad hermit. Just because he doesn't work hard now doesn't mean he's never worked hard in his entire life. Can you honestly say that one can acquire Hokage level by peeping at women. According to what you're saying genius can be defined as someone who is "dazzlingly skilled" (I assume that's the one you're referring to), and you go on to say that skill is something that can be acquired through training (which is true). But there are lot of people in Naruto who is dazzlingly skilled at something, Naruto is dazz. skilled at kage bunshin, Rock Lee is dazz. skilled at taijutsu, Kisame is dazz. skilled at water jutsu, I could go on for days. The fact is everyone has something that they are dazz. skilled at if they didn't they wouldn't have made it this far in the show, so are we to assume that everyone in the show is a genius. You have to draw the line somewhere, you can't just say because someone is good at something that makes them a genius. Besides that definition is one of many definitions (as you said), but even though that maybe true for real life it might not be true for this show. This show only categorizes genius by one definition (more or less), and I don't think it's acquired skill through hard work. If what you're saying is true than you're saying that anyone can become a genius through hard work.

First, my point was if you want to go with the definition in the dictionary, then Jiraiya should be considered as a genius at least based on the skill part. What the others can do or cannot do is neither my problem nor my concern here based on the given definition. The definition is quite clear, and if you want to go with the dictionary way, then you cannot draw the line according to how you see, it is always be subjective. Despite that, you can still create a more-objective interpretation of the skill level by looking at the level the person has reached using that skills. Even if I can see a lot of skilled people, I don't see many that have reached or be able to reach the Hokage level, do you?

And peeping is just an example to show how much Jiraiya has dedicated himself to his training. We are not shown or told how much Jiraiya worked to improve his skills, but we are given the impression that it was less than Orochimaru's, or maybe even Lee's.

If you want to look at the show's definition of genius, which by the way hasn't been defined at any place during the show, as far as I remember, you can only consider a person genius only someone has mentioned him as a genius. Interesting, I believe, that, Lee is considered as a genius there. If you feel that Jiraiya is well below Lee in that aspect, just know that I don't share it.

Lastly, I consider Jiraiya to be a genius not only because of his acquired skills, but also because of his innate abilities that allowed him to combine with his skills to become Hokage level.

[cheese4u]

Originally Posted by Sazelyt

First, my point was if you want to go with the definition in the dictionary, then Jiraiya should be considered as a genius at least based on the skill part. What the others can do or cannot do is neither my problem nor my concern here based on the given definition. The definition is quite clear, and if you want to go with the dictionary way, then you cannot draw the line according to how you see, it is always be subjective. Despite that, you can still create a more-objective interpretation of the skill level by looking at the level the person has reached using that skills. Even if I can see a lot of skilled people, I don't see many that have reached or be able to reach the Hokage level, do you?

And peeping is just an example to show how much Jiraiya has dedicated himself to his training. We are not shown or told how much Jiraiya worked to improve his skills, but we are given the impression that it was less than Orochimaru's, or maybe even Lee's.

If you want to look at the show's definition of genius, which by the way hasn't been defined at any place during the show, as far as I remember, you can only consider a person genius only someone has mentioned him as a genius. Interesting, I believe, that, Lee is considered as a genius there. If you feel that Jiraiya is well below Lee in that aspect, just know that I don't share it.

Lastly, I consider Jiraiya to be a genius not only because of his acquired skills, but also because of his innate abilities that allowed him to combine with his skills to become Hokage level.

The dictionary is not my concern either, you were the one who brought the dictionary in this, don't flip it around and make it seem like it was me. Everything I said was based on what you said so If you feel like there was some kind of discrepancie then it was on your part not mine. The people that I mentioned were mostly genin or younger ninja, how could you even compare them to Jiraiya who's been a ninja for at least 30 years depending on when he retired. I never said that the show identified what a genius is, my claims have been based on what has been seen so far in the show, and based on the show Jiraiya is not a genius Oro is. And as for Rock Lee there is always an exception to every rule even in Naruto. I never said that Lee wasn't a genius but then again I never said that he was. And btw he was only called a genius by his sensei who loves him, Kikashi was the only other person who even mentioned Lee and genius in the same sentence, and then he only questioned whether he was a genius or not. Look at it this way, if it takes you twenty years to solve a rubix cube, and another guy solved it in twelve seconds does that make you both geniuses? And that last part you mentioned sounds reasonable but strangely enough you never mentioned that in the previous post.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Sazelyt

First, hard work is not something that fits Jiraiya, especially with the peeping stuff he has been doing and the time/mind work he has dedicated on that since he was a child. Especially, compared to Orochimaru, his dedication and hard work can be considered to be almost inexistent. I would like to ask, if Orochimaru's dedication/concentration/work ethics have been exchanged with Jiraiya's, who would be considered as a bigger genius?

Considered by you maybe.
If you think that Jiraiya became what he is without training like hell and merely peeping all the time that's good for you. I suppose Tsunade became the best medic nin by punching people as we were said she was doing that as well.
Jiraiya's moto is never giving up but that's just about seeking naked woman.

Orochimaru without dedication would still have been a prodigy full of talent. Because that's what talent is. Innate skills. He wouldn't have became as powerful because unpolished talent can only get you so far but he had a natural advantage compared to regular people yes.

You are good in selecting the definition based on your needs, just like anybody (so it is hard to understand the need for what you mentioned at the end), I believe you should take into account all the available definitions.

I took a look at my actual dictionary then take a look at dictionary.com, then wikipedia and then some other online dictionary aleatory and quite frankly I have had a hard time finding one using skilled and not talented instead.
In fact I finally just put your sentence in google to find out.
More simply put I didn't select the definition I wanted, I just didn't pass a hour seeking a site giving the definition not implying innate skills like you seem to have done.
I mean really, if I just put "dictionary" throught google the site you use, webster, doesn't even appear in the first 15 pages (at least, I stopped after that). So out of curiosity why this one?

Baht anyway I don't intend your answer to entertain me so let's forgot about that. You did find a definition stating genius as pure skill, so be it.
Yes if you go by pure skill then obviously Jiraiya can be considered a genius.
Just as pretty much almost all the characters of this show. Heck even Lee is a genius as he has extremely high skill in Taijutsu, he becomes thus a Taijutsu genius.
Just like Gai who's arguably the best Taijutsu user of this show is then a genius.
Despite what they both said about themself.
Of course except for the Gates which did make think Kakashi that Lee had to be a genius about that... Because he couldn't be just about training in the first place.
And despite of course Orochimaru and Jiraiya blabling about why Jiraiya wouldn't want to train a genius he would prefer people like him.

But hey what do they know.