(CR) Legend of the Galactic Heroes remake

[Jerseykid]

They started going back and forth between the two sides now it's just Yang, where's my blonde prince!?

[4th Dimension]

Given the after the credits next episode name and logo, I'm guessing we will be going back to him handling some sort of rebellion?

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Kanon

Given that one of them was a second generation refugee and the other couldn't remember the Empire at all, that seems odd. None of them even knew about tattoos being forbidden, and I doubt they would have an accent since they were raised in the FPA.

You can still have the accent if you're taught by your parents (who have an accent) at an early age. Though it does seem weird that the whole point in the Rosenritters being the only guys for the job is somewhat undermined when two of the three agents have no memory and one of them only upto the age of six. This FPA needs a better intelligence department.

We're probably gonna find all sorts of stuff that we could pick apart mercilessly with this show as we go on. It's kind of shame because this kind of stuff they could probably get away with back when it was first written but now thanks to "The Information Age" and an increasingly savvy audience, it just doesn't work. People watching the OVA series could've turned a blind eye to it given its airing date but this adaptation doesn't have that excuse.

[Dextro]

Originally Posted by Kanon

Given that one of them was a second generation refugee and the other couldn't remember the Empire at all, that seems odd. None of them even knew about tattoos being forbidden, and I doubt they would have an accent since they were raised in the FPA.

I don't have the novel with me (it's a bit far away, I only have vol 2 with me now) but I don't remember any of those things being there. I believe those were changes made for the anime. But my memory isn't anywhere near trustworthy on this, other novel readers will probably correct me in no time

[Eater of All]

Originally Posted by Haak

We're probably gonna find all sorts of stuff that we could pick apart mercilessly with this show as we go on. It's kind of shame because this kind of stuff they could probably get away with back when it was first written but now thanks to "The Information Age" and an increasingly savvy audience, it just doesn't work. People watching the OVA series could've turned a blind eye to it given its airing date but this adaptation doesn't have that excuse.

I'm sure if people really wanted to, they could've picked apart the novels or the OVA too (or maybe they did, I was not around 30 years ago to witness ). It's easy to sit in the audience chair and point out holes when the medium cannot argue back, and it's especially easy with a story like LoGH, which features sci-fi _and_ war strategy, so people who know (or think they know) a bit of both have a lot to nitpick. It's not necessarily counterproductive, since through debate we might learn something new or gain some more appreciation for details of the story (disregarding people who have an explicit agenda to hate on a show). But in the end I think for LoGH, it's the depth of the characters, the philosophical musings, and the storytelling that makes the show, so it'd only be a shame if arguments about technical inconsistencies somehow dominate all conversations.

[4th Dimension]

Man the visualization/holograms that are supposed to be showing what's happening are again letting the show down, or what they did in the recent battle didn't make too much sense.

As far as I can make sense, the following happened:

First they surround the bigger force, silly but fine, then they leave one opening for the enemy to leave, fine. Then they trap a seemingly SMALL part of enemy fleet in.
At first I thought that they trapped the bit where the enemy commander was and that they were going to threathen him, but no, he smartly was not in the rearguard.
Then Redhead's Ace Custom Battleship (RED 'UNS GO FASTAH!) executes a microjump or something in front of the enemy battleship. And gives the entire speech about how they didn't sink any enemy whips which was ehhhhhh.

Even given the amnesty for his subordinates, the following reasoning didn't make much sense. From what we see there is only a SMALL segment of the enemy fleet trapped in the pocket, and even FPA commanders would consider it fine to leave them to fend for themselves as they fall on the rest of the rather dispersed enemy and annihilate them.
So the "commander should die for his men, didn't really strike me as appropriate".

What DID make it more consumable was that they in parting/offhandedly mention that none of the Castorp's allies seem to have come to his aid. So I'm thinking he got his forces to fight by promising they will get allies and have a more general rebellion. But since he has been abandoned by them, even if they beat the enemy now, Empire will just send a bigger fleet and without allies they can't fight the entire Empire.

But still, that should have been the argument. You will die no matter what you do now, so surrender for your followers's sake. Not for the sake of the tiny bit of your entire fleet.

That being said, does Empire regulary send under strength forces to deal with rebellions. Even taking into account politicking, one would assume they'd want to make example of futility of such actions by sending overwhelming forces.


The following politicking bit was more interesting.

PS: I actually chuckled at the fact that the Castorp, replied to any report by subordinate by punching. You'd think that after a while they'll learn and start delivering them from outside the punching range

[kuromitsu]

The Kastropf rebellion is not one of my favorite incidents so I'm kind of glad it's out of the way...

I still don't really know what to make of Umehara's Kircheis! He's definitely got an edge and has a much stronger presence than I would have expected of Kircheis, who is supposed to be more soft-spoken and unassuming. (In some ways Kircheis is kind of like Yang on the Empire side.) But still, it's an interesting approach to the character that works, and when he's with Reinhard and/or Annerose he does switch into a gentler, warmer mode. Too bad that I don't really feel much chemistry between this Reinhard and this Kircheis. The words are there, the actions are there, but somehow it's just... not convincing to me. I'd say it's mostly Reinhard's/Miyano's fault, but this stronger, edgier Kircheis doesn't really help with the characters' dynamics. (I wonder if they ever tested the chemistry between the actors during casting, or just went "Miyano and Umehara, one is crazy popular, the other is a rising star, they're just what we need." That is, if either of them even auditioned in the first place.)

In any case, I'm pleased that it's still Umehara voicing Kircheis. I wonder how far he got with recording before he was hospitalized. Checking Twitter now I see no announcement of a replacement, or even mention of it, so perhaps they actually managed to finish? That would be great.

As expected, Nakamura Yuuichi fits Reuenthal to a T, too bad that he's most likely not going to get the opportunity to sink his teeth into the role. I think Reuenthal is one of the most charismatic and complex LoGH characters, and I'd been really looking forward to seeing a new version of him, even with his terrible character design... but, well, I don't see much of a chance now. (I mean, currently the anime is still not finished with volume 1 of the novel. Just let that sink in. They're wasting an entire cour on less than 250 pages. And if it garners enough interest and/or makes enough money to continue beyond volume 2 after the movies I'll eat my hat. Who the hell thought that this pacing would be a good idea... although considering how uninspired this adaptation is, perhaps it's for the best.)

(And the least said of Suwabe's Oberstein the better. One day I'll find out who was responsible for this, and write them a very angry letter, or something.)

[Kanon]

I too think Kircheis's argument was pretty weak. His speech could have been better. It feels like it only worked because the noble was a real dickhead.

The rest of the episode was far more interesting. Oberstein GET, and some screentime for the Emperor who actually seems pretty wise.

[4th Dimension]

Originally Posted by Kanon

I too think Kircheis's argument was pretty weak. His speech could have been better. It feels like it only worked because the noble was a real dickhead.

The rest of the episode was far more interesting. Oberstein GET, and some screentime for the Emperor who actually seems pretty wise.

His speech lacked a STICK. For this to work you need to provide a stick.

"I have this stick here I can clobber you with and then go on my merry way to extract Empire's vengeance on your rebellious world.
OR we could do the other thing.
Since your struggle is futile anyway (allies failed to materialize), so stand down, turn over your lord (or have him turn himself in) and you will be treated fairly."

Instead he goes:

"I got your pinky finger while you have a club in your other hand to club me with. Now how about you do MY job for me and pack up your lord you swore an oath to and present him to me with a bow, and I swear I'll treat you honestly HONEST! Also the entire me faillling to make a dent against your fleet was just... it was just me showing my GENEROSITY. Not because I have inadequate forces and couldn't do shit against you.
OH also as a sign of my (desperation) good will, here have my flagship at convenient location for it's destruction. "

Yeah Emperor is interesting.

But also what he is saying is basically the common garden supremacist doctrine about SUPERIOR people/beings/nations/system should rule/dominate since they are better. And sees a potential disastrous civil war as a valid contest to determine supremacy.

[HunterSeeker]

Originally Posted by 4th Dimension

His speech lacked a STICK. For this to work you need to provide a stick.

"I have this stick here I can clobber you with and then go on my merry way to extract Empire's vengeance on your rebellious world.
OR we could do the other thing.
Since your struggle is futile anyway (allies failed to materialize), so stand down, turn over your lord (or have him turn himself in) and you will be treated fairly."

Instead he goes:

"I got your pinky finger while you have a club in your other hand to club me with. Now how about you do MY job for me and pack up your lord you swore an oath to and present him to me with a bow, and I swear I'll treat you honestly HONEST! Also the entire me faillling to make a dent against your fleet was just... it was just me showing my GENEROSITY. Not because I have inadequate forces and couldn't do shit against you.
OH also as a sign of my (desperation) good will, here have my flagship at convenient location for it's destruction. "

Yeah Emperor is interesting.

But also what he is saying is basically the common garden supremacist doctrine about SUPERIOR people/beings/nations/system should rule/dominate since they are better. And sees a potential disastrous civil war as a valid contest to determine supremacy.

I would say the OVA original (ala Artemis' Necklace) do it better, at least he DOES prove him can beat up his forces by just laying moving is finger.
But seriously this episode doesn't even act out how Kircheis lay siege on the rebel forces, or how he fully utilizes his fleet in an ambush. This episode is by far the worst episode in the remake IMO. (Well, save for Oberstein's part since he get longer talking time than the OVA)

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by 4th Dimension

His speech lacked a STICK. For this to work you need to provide a stick.

"I have this stick here I can clobber you with and then go on my merry way to extract Empire's vengeance on your rebellious world.
OR we could do the other thing.
Since your struggle is futile anyway (allies failed to materialize), so stand down, turn over your lord (or have him turn himself in) and you will be treated fairly."

Instead he goes:

"I got your pinky finger while you have a club in your other hand to club me with. Now how about you do MY job for me and pack up your lord you swore an oath to and present him to me with a bow, and I swear I'll treat you honestly HONEST! Also the entire me faillling to make a dent against your fleet was just... it was just me showing my GENEROSITY. Not because I have inadequate forces and couldn't do shit against you.
OH also as a sign of my (desperation) good will, here have my flagship at convenient location for it's destruction. "

Yeah Emperor is interesting.

But also what he is saying is basically the common garden supremacist doctrine about SUPERIOR people/beings/nations/system should rule/dominate since they are better. And sees a potential disastrous civil war as a valid contest to determine supremacy.

I think the argument really is "You think you're committed to total war with the massive Galactic Empire, but really, you're not. If you chose to give up now, while in a position of strength, you can keep your lives and maybe more. If you destroy me, they'll just send a bigger fleet next time, with more strongly worded orders."

The only question is how Kastrop even started his rebellion in the first place. Why would anyone betray the Empire for him?

[pervypig]

OBERSTEIN!!! OMFG! That's my favorite character from the original as well; Same goals, different circumstances from Reinhard, and far less scrupulous.

I find this new series literally cut to the bone of the tale and spare more time for flashy special effects. Well, I still find it too short. BTW, Astartes is NOT the first time Reinhard encountered Yang...

[HunterSeeker]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

I think the argument really is "You think you're committed to total war with the massive Galactic Empire, but really, you're not. If you chose to give up now, while in a position of strength, you can keep your lives and maybe more. If you destroy me, they'll just send a bigger fleet next time, with more strongly worded orders."

The only question is how Kastrop even started his rebellion in the first place. Why would anyone betray the Empire for him?

The Empire is a vast place, and the local nobles pretty much act as federal lords on their planet(s). And when a leader is a bit full of himself, well......
At least most of the nobles are loyal to the throne no matter what.

[4th Dimension]

Originally Posted by HunterSeeker

I would say the OVA original (ala Artemis' Necklace) do it better, at least he DOES prove him can beat up his forces by just laying moving is finger.
But seriously this episode doesn't even act out how Kircheis lay siege on the rebel forces, or how he fully utilizes his fleet in an ambush. This episode is by far the worst episode in the remake IMO. (Well, save for Oberstein's part since he get longer talking time than the OVA)

So what happens in the original OVA if you don't mind me asking, or do you know which episodes of the original OVA covered this bit?

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

I think the argument really is "You think you're committed to total war with the massive Galactic Empire, but really, you're not. If you chose to give up now, while in a position of strength, you can keep your lives and maybe more. If you destroy me, they'll just send a bigger fleet next time, with more strongly worded orders."

The only question is how Kastrop even started his rebellion in the first place. Why would anyone betray the Empire for him?

I think that OFFHANDED mention of no allies coming to back them up is telling. Except they mention it in the passing while it should be the MAIN bit.
One, the Empire for some reason seems to be run a la Fedual Monarchy system where local feudal lords have absolute power and their own levies. Meaning that local lords probably directly own a significant chunk of the Empire's military or even majority of it, and are letting the Empire have it via feudal contract.
I thought the Empire took a page from later Absolutist Monarchies where the influence of nobles on the crown was SEVERELY curtailed and their private armies SERIOUSLY reduced or forbidden.
I guess it might be that Kastorp built all those 10 000 ships in secret somehow? Or was he really allowed to have that big a feudal levy.

In any case the commanders were supposed to be his subjects, and not DIRECTLY subjects of the Emperor (that's how feudal system worked, and why a often a lowly serf that was Emperor's direct subject might be someone not even low nobles want to mess with).

IN any case, what he probably said, after punching anyone that raised any objections was that due to his vast wealth and (probably imagined connections) due to his dad, if he raised a flag of rebellion other nobles would flock to his banner, probably under the pretense of defending their noble rights or some such. He might not be able to fight the Empire alone, but a more general uprising might garner enough attention for some sort of deal to be struck.

But then no allies materialized.

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by 4th Dimension

So what happens in the original OVA if you don't mind me asking, or do you know which episodes of the original OVA covered this bit?

Spoiler for OVA:

In the OVA, Kastrop has no fleet or the likes, but a system called the Artemis necklace that is also protecting planet Heinessen and is reputed to be invincible. It's basically giant satellites spread around the planet that automatically open fire on enemies. I forgot why exactly but they couldn't be destroyed by ordinary means. He thought himself safe thanks to that, but Kircheis effortlessly destroyed the satellites by spreading Seffle particles in the area, which made them all explode as soon as they fired.

[pervypig]

The way Reinhard combed Kirchies' hair at the end of this episode literally fired up my fudanshi heart. I've no idea Kirchies is that much taller than Reinhard. Figure Yang would have his BL moments with Julian soon too.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by 4th Dimension

So what happens in the original OVA if you don't mind me asking, or do you know which episodes of the original OVA covered this bit?


I think that OFFHANDED mention of no allies coming to back them up is telling. Except they mention it in the passing while it should be the MAIN bit.
One, the Empire for some reason seems to be run a la Fedual Monarchy system where local feudal lords have absolute power and their own levies. Meaning that local lords probably directly own a significant chunk of the Empire's military or even majority of it, and are letting the Empire have it via feudal contract.
I thought the Empire took a page from later Absolutist Monarchies where the influence of nobles on the crown was SEVERELY curtailed and their private armies SERIOUSLY reduced or forbidden.
I guess it might be that Kastorp built all those 10 000 ships in secret somehow? Or was he really allowed to have that big a feudal levy.

In any case the commanders were supposed to be his subjects, and not DIRECTLY subjects of the Emperor (that's how feudal system worked, and why a often a lowly serf that was Emperor's direct subject might be someone not even low nobles want to mess with).

IN any case, what he probably said, after punching anyone that raised any objections was that due to his vast wealth and (probably imagined connections) due to his dad, if he raised a flag of rebellion other nobles would flock to his banner, probably under the pretense of defending their noble rights or some such. He might not be able to fight the Empire alone, but a more general uprising might garner enough attention for some sort of deal to be struck.

But then no allies materialized.

The way I see it, there are two possibilities, neither of which makes sense. The first is that the Emperor, rather than an autocrat, is merely the top dog of a coalition of warlords who all have their own powerful fleets. That is not at all how the empire's been presented so far, but an autocrat would never let a local noble have its own fleet like that. What would he even use it for except civil strife?

The other is that the 10.000 ships are the local element of the Imperial fleet, that he somehow subverted. Which brings us back to my question of why anyone would betray the Empire for him, supposed allies or not. (I don't see why they'd believe allies would be coming either.)

I mean, betraying the Empire for Reinhardt is understandable. (Less understandable: why Reinhardt would trust Oberstein so fast.) Reinhart looks like he might eventually win, and he's the type who treats his subordinate well as long as they're loyal to him and competent. Kastrop? It never was possible for his rebellion to succeed, and even if he did, what did his closest subordinates have to hope for except punches in the face?

[HunterSeeker]

Originally Posted by Kanon

Spoiler for OVA:

In the OVA, Kastrop has no fleet or the likes, but a system called the Artemis necklace that is also protecting planet Heinessen and is reputed to be invincible. It's basically giant satellites spread around the planet that automatically open fire on enemies. I forgot why exactly but they couldn't be destroyed by ordinary means. He thought himself safe thanks to that, but Kircheis effortlessly destroyed the satellites by spreading Seffle particles in the area, which made them all explode as soon as they fired.

Spoiler:

There're no proof that the necklace is invincible without using ordinary means to attack against, but the cost of a direct attack is too costly as they can be coordinated to defend a multi-side attack and take in place with satellites lost. The last fleet sent to suppress the rebellion is basically wasted to a last ship before Kircheis destroyed the necklace without a single casualty. Well, one for the Ring Leader.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

The way I see it, there are two possibilities, neither of which makes sense. The first is that the Emperor, rather than an autocrat, is merely the top dog of a coalition of warlords who all have their own powerful fleets. That is not at all how the empire's been presented so far, but an autocrat would never let a local noble have its own fleet like that. What would he even use it for except civil strife?

The other is that the 10.000 ships are the local element of the Imperial fleet, that he somehow subverted. Which brings us back to my question of why anyone would betray the Empire for him, supposed allies or not. (I don't see why they'd believe allies would be coming either.)

I mean, betraying the Empire for Reinhardt is understandable. (Less understandable: why Reinhardt would trust Oberstein so fast.) Reinhart looks like he might eventually win, and he's the type who treats his subordinate well as long as they're loyal to him and competent. Kastrop? It never was possible for his rebellion to succeed, and even if he did, what did his closest subordinates have to hope for except punches in the face?

The Empire is a federal one at the very least, as later on we're shown some of the highest nobles can have a limited fleet of their own (or rather, fleets for their affiliated admirals). As for why rebellions can take place, well, ask the Emprah from 40K lol. (Jokes aside, it's hinted the Empire isn't that good on the financial side as most of the economy are being controlled by the nobles, while court strifes between different parties are common, so they try to gather armed support from the military......well, you get the picture. Even Reinhard was being scouted before. Kastrop will not succeed in the long run yes, but you may earn a bargaining process in between if you have a big stick.)
As for the issue from Oberstein, aside from being on the same boat of trying to topple the old Empire, it's more for Reinhard's personal benefit. It's not like he trust Oberstein at this point but to get more potential allies within the military: he'll be court martialed anyway, but by pulling him into his camp first, he'll prevent others to do the same favour.

[4th Dimension]

Originally Posted by Kanon

Spoiler for OVA:

In the OVA, Kastrop has no fleet or the likes, but a system called the Artemis necklace that is also protecting planet Heinessen and is reputed to be invincible. It's basically giant satellites spread around the planet that automatically open fire on enemies. I forgot why exactly but they couldn't be destroyed by ordinary means. He thought himself safe thanks to that, but Kircheis effortlessly destroyed the satellites by spreading Seffle particles in the area, which made them all explode as soon as they fired.

That actually sounds quite a lot more interesting than what we got. Especially since it's much more open to writter fiat gift wrapping victory to Kircheis without it looking silly. I wonder why they went with this. Probably wanted to get their money's due out of those warship models.

Originally Posted by pervypig

The way Reinhard combed Kirchies' hair at the end of this episode literally fired up my fudanshi heart. I've no idea Kirchies is that much taller than Reinhard. Figure Yang would have his BL moments with Julian soon too.

I was wondering how many viewers of that prefference quit the episode at that point and went to furiously write fanfiction

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

The way I see it, there are two possibilities, neither of which makes sense. The first is that the Emperor, rather than an autocrat, is merely the top dog of a coalition of warlords who all have their own powerful fleets. That is not at all how the empire's been presented so far, but an autocrat would never let a local noble have its own fleet like that. What would he even use it for except civil strife?

It does seem out of place doesn't it? But given the architecture and everything, the first Emperor had a massive man crush on most unstable of middle age government systems.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

The other is that the 10.000 ships are the local element of the Imperial fleet, that he somehow subverted. Which brings us back to my question of why anyone would betray the Empire for him, supposed allies or not. (I don't see why they'd believe allies would be coming either.)

Well they did say that he was their liege. So that does suggest he somehow managed to build a 10k strong fleet. And yeah, that big a fleet is nothing but trouble. You don't need 10k ships to keep order on your planet. If you need ships, ONE is enough to sling rocks on any potential problem.

Originally Posted by HunterSeeker

Spoiler:

There're no proof that the necklace is invincible without using ordinary means to attack against, but the cost of a direct attack is too costly as they can be coordinated to defend a multi-side attack and take in place with satellites lost. The last fleet sent to suppress the rebellion is basically wasted to a last ship before Kircheis destroyed the necklace without a single casualty. Well, one for the Ring Leader.

The Empire is a federal one at the very least, as later on we're shown some of the highest nobles can have a limited fleet of their own (or rather, fleets for their affiliated admirals). As for why rebellions can take place, well, ask the Emprah from 40K lol. (Jokes aside, it's hinted the Empire isn't that good on the financial side as most of the economy are being controlled by the nobles, while court strifes between different parties are common, so they try to gather armed support from the military......well, you get the picture. Even Reinhard was being scouted before. Kastrop will not succeed in the long run yes, but you may earn a bargaining process in between if you have a big stick.)

So they are using a more feudal system. That is just asking for trouble. Then again if the thinking of the current Emperor was shared by his predecessors, that would make some sense. They might think a "healthy competition" (between nobles, commoners that get squashed when giants collide are probably considered) is good for the Empire.

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by 4th Dimension

So what happens in the original OVA if you don't mind me asking, or do you know which episodes of the original OVA covered this bit?

In the original novel this whole thing takes up only like a couple of pages. Old Man Kastropf abused the system and amassed a huge wealth mostly due to corruption and bribery. After he dies the Empire tries to make an example of him and collect the money by the way of launching an investigation that is expected to uncover the illegal sources of the money. Maximilian, a stupid young man who can't really grasp the consequences of his actions says "lol no dis mine" and kicks the investigators out, multiple times. He's summoned to the court, he gets scared for his life/freedom. Instead of listening to his relatives trying to reason with him, he decides to use his private security forces to put together a rebellion because clearly that's the solution to the situation. He even attacks a relative of his, a certain Count Mariendorf (whose daughter is a very important character who should have been at least mentioned in Die Neue Thesis already) who calls to the throne for help.

This is where Kircheis comes into the picture. He first pretends to aid Mariendorf, except in the last minute he takes a sharp turn to towards Kastropf's home base instead. Kastropf takes the bait and rushes his fleet home to battle Kircheis. Except Kircheis, having hidden his fleet in an asteroid field (whatever, don't ask) surprises him by attacking his unprotected rear end of Kastropf's fleet, destroying it. Kastropf is then murdered by his own men in hopes that it will lighten their punishment. The End.

The OVA (which continues not to be "the original") pretty much did its own thing with this story, mostly for filler purposes and to develop Kircheis a bit to prepare the ground for Oberstein, I think. If DNT was trying to do the same thing it kind of failed because as I pointed out a few times already, this Kircheis... is not really that Kircheis. Anyway, this is not supposed to be some grand battle with deep meaning and whatnot. The only points we should get from it is that 1. Kircheis is not just someone coasting along on Reinhard's talent and proving his own mettle and place in the army, and 2. providing another success for Reinhard which eventually leads to Oberstein coming into the picture.

And about that...

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Less understandable: why Reinhardt would trust Oberstein so fast.

Exactly because Oberstein is so shamelessly open about who he is and what he wants and why. Reinhard knows who Obe is, knows what he's trying to avoid and achieve. At this point Obe has everything to lose and Reinhard lots and lots to gain from saving him.

It's not like Reinhard trusts Obe as such, he knows that as long as he's doing what Obe expects him to do he will have Obe's loyalty and support. Obe pretty much says "Look, you need a man to do your dirty business. Kircheis is unsuited for it. If you help me out I'll be that man because I like what you're doing and where you're taking all this." And Reinhard, who at this point has been really wanting someone like this, says "sure, fine, let's see how this works out."

(At one point later in the story Oberstein calls Reuenthal a leashed beast, but I think that analogy fits him better...)