2019-09-07, 03:13 | Link #1262 | |
Index III was a mistake
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Sydney, Australia
Age: 32
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And would a referendum even solve the deadlock? In my mind, the only way it could was if there were three options to choose from:
The reality is that this will never happen unless the EU make it one of the conditions of another Brexit deadline extension AND parliament passes the bill (preferably before another election). And while the final season of Brexit has been unpredictable so far, it would take a shear miracle for the stars to align and allow this to happen. If this dream scenario ever occurs, I might as well start buying lottery tickets from then on.
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2019-09-07, 05:36 | Link #1264 | |
Seishu's Ace
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Kobe, Japan
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Right now, there is no deal. A second referendum would have to be "No Deal" or "Revoke Article 50". Even if "Revoke and Remain" won, of course, that wouldn't satisfy the half of the country that voted for Brexit. There's no real way out here - Brexit and the country is fucked, no Brexit and half the country is in open revolt. On top of that, this referendum will never happen because as long as Corbyn is head of the Labour Party he'll never allow it. He's a committed lifelong Brexiteer (which Cameron and May - and even BoJo - are not) and revoke and remain is his worst-case scenario. He'll continue to triangulate and try to get his Brexit while blaming the Tories for screwing it up, and it's really just a race to see which of the two main parties destroys itself first.
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2019-09-07, 08:59 | Link #1265 |
Logician and Romantic
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 43
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Then let them revolt. At some point you had to clear out the malcontents, best that they show themselves in jackboots so we know who is the enemy.
I am reminded of a post in this forum, several years ago. That person was terrified of finding out all the actual fascists living in his American neighbourhood. He doesn't want to know who they are, he rather that they hid themselves so he would never had to fact the reality that he is living with traitors. He was terrified that if Trump lost the election, the fascists would get desperate and actually start to kill people. Well, he got his wish, the fascists won. If people are willing to go into open revolt, then it is their right to. Let them exercise their right to revolt. And there are consequences to revolting. Better to air the laundry out in the sun and see who is outnumbered.
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2019-09-07, 09:13 | Link #1266 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2017
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You think staying in the EU after having vote were we voted to leave will be political tranquillity? Pre Brexit vote the Eurosceptic movement was happily growing. If Hard Remain stops Brexit going ahead, it will just make help entrench attitudes that the Europhile's are anti-democratic.
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2019-09-07, 09:13 | Link #1267 | |
Seishu's Ace
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Kobe, Japan
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I think that's a naive way to look at things, and I don't think a country can function as a democracy that way. But be that as it may it's moot IMO, because there will be no second referendum. Most of the Tory rebels wouldn't go that far, for starters. That's what's missing in all this for me - an endgame for the rebel alliance. We know what BoJo wants - out-Brexit Farage and get out of the EU at any costs so he can take the credit. But what does the rebellion want? Some want a second referendum, some don't. Some want to remain, some want to get out with a deal. There's certainly no majority for anything except avoiding a no-deal. But sooner or later even if you extend Article 50 you still need an actual resolution, and I don't see what that is. If an outright remain majority could win a November election that would be one thing, but that's certainly not going to happen.
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2019-09-07, 09:34 | Link #1268 |
AS Oji-kun
Join Date: Nov 2006
Age: 74
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Leavers' claims that "a majority" of the country voted for Brexit are simply false. Thirteen million people did not vote in the 2016 referendum. That's nearly as many as voted for Remain or Leave.
I don't see how a second referendum would be worded. Leave and Remain are reasonably absolute, but "leave but with a deal" is totally ambiguous. What kind of deal? Would it require the backstop? Would it continue free movement? Most voters likely have no idea what was contained in the deal May negotiated with the EU. That's why Cameron's initial decision to bring forward a referendum was so stupid in the first place. You cannot reduce these kinds of complex issues to simple items on a ballot paper. I suppose voting for Leave included the implicit consequence that Parliament would work out what a Leave vote means. We now know that hope was in vain.
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2019-09-07, 10:28 | Link #1269 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2017
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A none voter a none voter through. The referendum had a much better turnout than any election for decades, yet I don't see anyone saying all our Prime Minsters were not legit. The other issues is how how you resolve EU membership without a referendum on the subject.
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2019-09-07, 11:09 | Link #1270 | |
Banned
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: A city with a small mountain in the middle
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To use a term coined back in 2016, those people are true deplorables. At one point, they have to be confronted out in the open and then be forced to face of consequences for fucking up the country. To think that we shouldn't take those fringes head on so they get shown their own expiry date... do me a favour! Last edited by Toukairin; 2019-09-07 at 13:04. |
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2019-09-07, 19:06 | Link #1273 | |
Seishu's Ace
Author
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Kobe, Japan
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Meanwhile:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...isemitism-tsar and: https://www.theguardian.com/politics...e-chaotic-week Quote:
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2019-09-07, 19:36 | Link #1274 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Germany
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^Seriously? Even now Corbyn can't win against the Tory leader? I was already surprised that he failed against Robolady May but Clown Bojo?! What do the Tories need to put up as frontman for Corbyn to have a winning chance? A gay Pony Unicorn?
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2019-09-07, 19:50 | Link #1275 | |
Seishu's Ace
Author
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Kobe, Japan
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At the moment the rebel alliance seems to be putting their hopes in a massive strategic voting campaign to get people to vote for the most realistic remain candidate in their constituency, be they LibDem, Labour, Green, SNP or Plaid Cymru. Even Tory in some cases. The idea is a hung parliament where remainers could form a coalition, but I'm highly skeptical this can work. It's asking a lot of voters in the first place, and in the second under such a scenario it's likely Labour would have the most seats among the parties involved - and you're going to ask Jeremy Corbyn, a devout Brexiteer, to head a government made possible expressly by strategic remain voting?
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2019-09-07, 20:55 | Link #1278 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Germany
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Nah, BoJo gonna win. But Brexit Party will take Seats as well so he gonna need to work with them. If the Brexit gets delayed again and the election is hold after the delay then the Leaver Base will be huge and active. So even considering the Remainer Base being bigger and more active they will not win due their many parties dividing the votes between them. So far Cummings plan to make the Conservatives the Brexit Party works, sure it hurts them losing some moderates but if you ask a moderate Tory voter between chosing either BoJo or Corbyn he gonna do a long hiss and then vote Bojo for sure or at least most of them will, enough for BoJo to take first place, especially since Labour will lose more voters to Brexit Party and LimDems than they can gain from the Tories.
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2019-09-07, 23:00 | Link #1279 |
Banned
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: A city with a small mountain in the middle
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Until when will the Labour Party wake up and give Corbyn the boot? It shouldn't be difficult for a losing leader in a parliamentary system to be replaced, especially when that leader couldn't even win against Theresa "Robolady" May.
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