Final Fantasy 7 Remake, Pt. 2 Rebirth

[Magin]

In regards to Aeris (I'm going with this spelling)...

Spoiler for Aeris and Sephiroth:

It's been probably at least a decade since I played the game, so I'm VERY hazy on the specifics. So with some research, it appears that outside of making Sephiroth go from "Giant Pain in the Ass" to "Bastard Must Die", Aeris's death... is what keeps the game going. Besides Cloud going all emo, it also allows us to explore the origins of Sephiroth and JENOVA. Should Aeris live... there's no point. Sephiroth tries Meteor, Aeris uses Holy, Baddy is Defeated and we all go home. Actually, if they decide to make this game only two parts (but that wouldn't be milking the cash cow, of course), they could realistically pull it off.

Though I do see one other path, but I'm wondering if they're willing to really do that: if they take out Sephiroth early on, would JENOVA then turn into the Final Boss? In the OG, JENOVA is more of a sub-plot with Sephiroth. However, given how iconic Sephiroth is to FF7... would they really kill him off early, or worse yet, pull an Advent Children? Just possibilities that no matter what you do, you're going to piss some of the fanbase.

[Homura7]

Originally Posted by Magin

In regards to Aeris (I'm going with this spelling)...

Spoiler for Aeris and Sephiroth:

It's been probably at least a decade since I played the game, so I'm VERY hazy on the specifics. So with some research, it appears that outside of making Sephiroth go from "Giant Pain in the Ass" to "Bastard Must Die", Aeris's death... is what keeps the game going. Besides Cloud going all emo, it also allows us to explore the origins of Sephiroth and JENOVA. Should Aeris live... there's no point. Sephiroth tries Meteor, Aeris uses Holy, Baddy is Defeated and we all go home. Actually, if they decide to make this game only two parts (but that wouldn't be milking the cash cow, of course), they could realistically pull it off.

Though I do see one other path, but I'm wondering if they're willing to really do that: if they take out Sephiroth early on, would JENOVA then turn into the Final Boss? In the OG, JENOVA is more of a sub-plot with Sephiroth. However, given how iconic Sephiroth is to FF7... would they really kill him off early, or worse yet, pull an Advent Children? Just possibilities that no matter what you do, you're going to piss some of the fanbase.

You're missing out a lot.

Spoiler for spoiler:

Although Aeris successfully summoned Holy, in the end the spell was useless. Holy didn't have enough strength, so Aeris had to call forth the Lifestream to finally destroy meteor.

But should Aeris live... What do you think is going to happen to the Planet? And that is where things get exciting.

This was the entire point of killing the Whisper Harbinger, a Weapon created by the Planet sent to ensure its survival through forcefully uphold the future that was already set in stone.

In the end many people still fail to understand the narrative, so I'll be blunt with you.

FF7R won't end the same as FF7. Not just because that is outright impossible after the way the first installment ended, but also because the story is obviously set after FF7.

And let pissbabies be pissbabies. If they're such hypocritical purists they cannot enjoy a brand new plot, that's none of my concern.

[Magin]

Spoiler for Regarding Holy:

Well, Holy didn't have enough strength/was warped because with Aeris dying, apparently Sephiroth was able to "contain", if you will, Holy. Or in other words, again, if Aeris doesn't die, everything should go smoothly.

Ultimately, FFVII R is turning into an AU more than anything else. However, it's still being marketed as an upgraded FFVII with PS4 graphics and controls. Until the marketing promo (not gameplay!) acknowledges that this is a "what if" scenario, I'll believe any changes to the ultimate story when i see them.

Of course, the last time that a game got marketed one way and then gameplay and story turned out to be different, the game tanked- and tanked so bad that a bad sequel was rushed. Look up the story behind another major JRPG franchise, specifically Tales of Vesperia and the Alisha debacle. I mean, if enough salty veterans of the original happen because of storyline changes, you can be damned sure that used copies of VII R will be lining the shelves in Japan.

[Homura7]

Bad comparison, really bad comparison.

It's not a matter of changes, is how well written these storyline changes are, and the way they are conveyed.

Spoiler for spoiler:

And the first installment already did an excellent job at building up to Aeris living, mind you.

You're also wrong about Holy.

Spoiler for spoiler:

As is explained much later, Holy didn't move because Sefirot had merged with the Lifestream, preventing the spell from moving after Aeris called it forth. So by the time Holy started moving it was already too depleted of strength because of Sefirot.

You're also greatly underestimating Japan, they ain't Gamefaqs or IGN. And FF7R being actually a sequel had the opposite effect of what the deplorable purists were expecting.

[NAJ P. Jackson]

Originally Posted by Magin

In regards to Aeris (I'm going with this spelling)...

Spoiler for Aeris and Sephiroth:

It's been probably at least a decade since I played the game, so I'm VERY hazy on the specifics. So with some research, it appears that outside of making Sephiroth go from "Giant Pain in the Ass" to "Bastard Must Die", Aeris's death... is what keeps the game going. Besides Cloud going all emo, it also allows us to explore the origins of Sephiroth and JENOVA. Should Aeris live... there's no point. Sephiroth tries Meteor, Aeris uses Holy, Baddy is Defeated and we all go home. Actually, if they decide to make this game only two parts (but that wouldn't be milking the cash cow, of course), they could realistically pull it off.

Though I do see one other path, but I'm wondering if they're willing to really do that: if they take out Sephiroth early on, would JENOVA then turn into the Final Boss? In the OG, JENOVA is more of a sub-plot with Sephiroth. However, given how iconic Sephiroth is to FF7... would they really kill him off early, or worse yet, pull an Advent Children? Just possibilities that no matter what you do, you're going to piss some of the fanbase.

Spoiler:

Aerith's death definitely had a big impact on the story in the OG, no doubt. But here's the thing, the game is old. The story and lore have been broken down and studied by long time fans so many times already that there's really nothing new to talk about anymore. The reason the devs didn't go for just a remaster is to give new context to the story. Keeping things the same won't achieve that.

And you're definitely right that Sephiroth is an iconic antagonist in the franchise. The only way to keep him relevant is to increase his threat level much more than he already was from the OG. Or maybe we'll get a more menacing villain and Cloud and Sephiroth will need to team up to fight this new threat as sort of his redemption arc of sorts

[Homura7]

Speaking about Sefirot, the Ultimania unveiled a very important fact.

Spoiler for spoiler:

The Sefirot in the Shinra HQ and the Sefirot that shows up at the end in the highway and the Edge of Creation, ARE NOT THE SAME.

The mysterious Sefirot even speaks using the pronoun "ore" instead of "watashi". It's heavily implying this Sefirot is not only Hero Sefirot, but he also wants to genuinely help in preventing the end of the world. But of course, he doesn't expect Cloud to believe him, so he resorts to cryptic dialogue.

[NAJ P. Jackson]

Originally Posted by Knighto

Speaking about Sefirot, the Ultimania unveiled a very important fact.

Spoiler for spoiler:

The Sefirot in the Shinra HQ and the Sefirot that shows up at the end in the highway and the Edge of Creation, ARE NOT THE SAME.

The mysterious Sefirot even speaks using the pronoun "ore" instead of "watashi". It's heavily implying this Sefirot is not only Hero Sefirot, but he also wants to genuinely help in preventing the end of the world. But of course, he doesn't expect Cloud to believe him, so he resorts to cryptic dialogue.

Spoiler:

Well yes the Ultimania revealed that there are four Sephiroths in this game
1) A Sephiroth from flashbacks
2) An illusion Sephiroth that only Cloud can see
3) A Sephiroth manifestation using the Clones
4) And the last Sephiroth is just labeled as ???? by the devs

I don't know about being a Hero Sephiroth though. It could be that the last Sephiroth is Advent Children Sephiroth trying to convince Cloud to trust him so that he can take over his body. Don't forget that Cloud was an experiment of Hojo designed to be a clone of Sephiroth. Maybe AC Sephiroth figures he stands a better chance of victory if he can possess Cloud's body.

[Tactics]

Originally Posted by Magin

Look up the story behind another major JRPG franchise, specifically Tales of Vesperia and the Alisha debacle. I mean, if enough salty veterans of the original happen because of storyline changes, you can be damned sure that used copies of VII R will be lining the shelves in Japan.

That's very wrong reason you used there;

First, Tales of Vesperia do get story changed for PS version but that's just to facilitate Flynn and Patty to join the party.
People are reacting because there's no NA version to that (only PS3 JP) until Definitive Edition that come 10 years later as part of 10 Years Vesperia commemoration. If anything, veterans hardly mad about it because most of them already playing PS3 JP long ago knowing such changes, while Flynn himself is a popular character among casts.

Second, Alisha debacles stems from how she's promoted as main heroine during pre-order however when game launches turned out she's your temporary party member similar to Seifer in FF VIII. To make things worse, when people peek into game data they found Alisha is supposed to be playable until the very end while Rose is closer to "last minute addition". So somehow the finalized product retcon her importance in favor of Rose (which suspected to be director favoritism to certain party); combined with fact Alisha herself shown as a likeable character, of course veterans are mad.

If that happens in FF VII R, that would be something equal to Yuffie capable of summoning Holy instead of Aerith.

[Homura7]

To not say FFVIIR is a full project, and each installment goes in paralel.

The first installment sold gangbusters even with the pandemic. The next one will do as well if not better.

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by NAJ P. Jackson

Spoiler:

Well yes the Ultimania revealed that there are four Sephiroths in this game
1) A Sephiroth from flashbacks
2) An illusion Sephiroth that only Cloud can see
3) A Sephiroth manifestation using the Clones
4) And the last Sephiroth is just labeled as ???? by the devs

I don't know about being a Hero Sephiroth though. It could be that the last Sephiroth is Advent Children Sephiroth trying to convince Cloud to trust him so that he can take over his body. Don't forget that Cloud was an experiment of Hojo designed to be a clone of Sephiroth. Maybe AC Sephiroth figures he stands a better chance of victory if he can possess Cloud's body.

Spoiler for Remake spoilers:

A lot of people suspected it due to the way he referred to himself, but I didn't know they had outright confirmed the Sephiroth in chapter 18 is a different one.

What I found really intriguing in chapter 18 is that Aerith tells Sephiroth that he is "wrong/mistaken" (I don't recall the exact line) when he talks about protecting the planet, which makes me think it is really his goal but that Aerith disapproves his methods.

By the way, which changes did you guys end up liking the most in the Remake? You can talk about the ones you disliked too.

Spoiler for Remake spoilers:

Biggs, Wedge, and Jessie in particular being developed was a really good thing. In the OG there weren't even characters.

Aerith and Tifa bonding, and Aerith acting like a total bro (sis?) with her. Not a hint of jealousy or anything. The party bonding with each other was something that was lacking in the original, especially with two party members being optional. I hope they'll keep that up in future installments.

Bigger presence of Avalanche's main branch. In the original it didn't feel like there even was a main branch. Barrett talks about the founder of Avalanche in Cosmo Canyon but others branches are never seen.

Wutai being mentioned often and still being seen as an enemy by the people of Midgar. In the OG, until you actually go to Wutai, they were barely mentioned and Shinra clearly didn't give a crap about them anymore (Turks even go on vacations there).

Sephiroth having a bigger presence.

That's all I can think of for now.

[NAJ P. Jackson]

Originally Posted by Kanon

Spoiler for Remake spoilers:

A lot of people suspected it due to the way he referred to himself, but I didn't know they had outright confirmed the Sephiroth in chapter 18 is a different one.

What I found really intriguing in chapter 18 is that Aerith tells Sephiroth that he is "wrong/mistaken" (I don't recall the exact line) when he talks about protecting the planet, which makes me think it is really his goal but that Aerith disapproves his methods.

Spoiler:

I took Aerith's line to mean that that Sephiroth's entire presence is wrong and him being there is disrupting everything in the timeline.

Originally Posted by Kanon

By the way, which changes did you guys end up liking the most in the Remake? You can talk about the ones you disliked too.

Spoiler for Remake spoilers:

Biggs, Wedge, and Jessie in particular being developed was a really good thing. In the OG there weren't even characters.

Aerith and Tifa bonding, and Aerith acting like a total bro (sis?) with her. Not a hint of jealousy or anything. The party bonding with each other was something that was lacking in the original, especially with two party members being optional. I hope they'll keep that up in future installments.

Bigger presence of Avalanche's main branch. In the original it didn't feel like there even was a main branch. Barrett talks about the founder of Avalanche in Cosmo Canyon but others branches are never seen.

Wutai being mentioned often and still being seen as an enemy by the people of Midgar. In the OG, until you actually go to Wutai, they were barely mentioned and Shinra clearly didn't give a crap about them anymore (Turks even go on vacations there).

Sephiroth having a bigger presence.

That's all I can think of for now.

Spoiler:

I gotta be honest, I did not like that they kept seesawing on whether Wedge is alive or not. I honestly think he should have died when the plate dropped on his head. He was instrumental in evacuating many of the sector 7 residents but after that his purpose was fulfilled. He had no business appearing in the Shinra building, which we still don't know how the fuck he achieved. It took Cloud and the team going to Corneo's mansion to get the grappling guns to be able to climb topside and getting past hundreds on guards to infiltrate the Shinra building and you telling me an injured Wedge also did that all by himself as well? Wedge's purpose on being on that scene was to tell the group that Avalance HQ will rescue them on the roof with the reason being waved as Wedge "asking them super nicely" like SE are desperately trying to show that Wedge being alive is important. It felt not needed. The Mayor could have easily just relayed that message to them. And then SE had the audacity to make his fate ambiguous by fading the screen black when the whispers threw his ass off the building. I really disliked how SE did his character in the ending.

I kind of dislike the whole Zack surviving they did in the ending as well, even though it's in a parallel universe, because one, Zack's death was a pivotal moment for Cloud's character development. Take that away and Cloud wouldn't be the same. And two, it gave the Zack fans fuel to be vocal about the story not needing Cloud if Zack is alive. And I especially dislike it in a shipper's PoV when the Zack/Aerith shippers are coming out in force again to advertise their ship, and the Cloti shippers are backing them up. It's tough being a Cloud/Aerith shipper in these times man.

But on the bright side, if Squre Enix has the balls to change an important event like Zack's death in the game then it gives me hope that Aerith's fate may change as well.

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by NAJ P. Jackson

Spoiler:

I took Aerith's line to mean that that Sephiroth's entire presence is wrong and him being there is disrupting everything in the timeline.

Spoiler:

I gotta be honest, I did not like that they kept seesawing on whether Wedge is alive or not. I honestly think he should have died when the plate dropped on his head. He was instrumental in evacuating many of the sector 7 residents but after that his purpose was fulfilled. He had no business appearing in the Shinra building, which we still don't know how the fuck he achieved. It took Cloud and the team going to Corneo's mansion to get the grappling guns to be able to climb topside and getting past hundreds on guards to infiltrate the Shinra building and you telling me an injured Wedge also did that all by himself as well? Wedge's purpose on being on that scene was to tell the group that Avalance HQ will rescue them on the roof with the reason being waved as Wedge "asking them super nicely" like SE are desperately trying to show that Wedge being alive is important. It felt not needed. The Mayor could have easily just relayed that message to them. And then SE had the audacity to make his fate ambiguous by fading the screen black when the whispers threw his ass off the building. I really disliked how SE did his character in the ending.

I kind of dislike the whole Zack surviving they did in the ending as well, even though it's in a parallel universe, because one, Zack's death was a pivotal moment for Cloud's character development. Take that away and Cloud wouldn't be the same. And two, it gave the Zack fans fuel to be vocal about the story not needing Cloud if Zack is alive. And I especially dislike it in a shipper's PoV when the Zack/Aerith shippers are coming out in force again to advertise their ship, and the Cloti shippers are backing them up. It's tough being a Cloud/Aerith shipper in these times man.

But on the bright side, if Squre Enix has the balls to change an important event like Zack's death in the game then it gives me hope that Aerith's fate may change as well.

Agreed about Wedge. That whole part was just really weird and unnecessary.

[Homura7]

About Zack.

Spoiler for spoiler:

That's a red herring. Right before he vanishes, it starts raining. Rain as Zack is carrying Cloud on his shoulders is the moment he's killed off. Zack is too beaten up at this point, and that's when a Shinra commander and two soldiers ambush him and kill him.

It's also not an alternate timeline. In fact, there aren't any alternate timelines. What wee see at the end happens in the past. The whispers being killed off created a Ripple Effect that affected every instance where they interfered. This goes from minor changes (Stamp dog design) to major ones (survival of Biggs and implied survival of the other two members of Avalanche).

Oh, and Jackson.

Spoiler for spoiler:

You should just ignore the Clotis and Zeris. Let them live in their world of delusion.

In fact, I pity the Clotis. They have not yet realized Tifa's resolution in ch. 14 is called "Loss". It has Tifa coming up to terms with the fact Cloud loves another woman (Aeris) and moving on. From there, Tifa resolves to rescue Aeris, not for her, but so Cloud can feel happy again. She also tells him words of encouragement during the segment where Leslie tells his backstory, referencing the symbology of the yellow flower Aeris gave Cloud.

As for the Zeris, Aeris herself will take care of nuking that ship once the party makes it to Gongaga.

It's hilarious, because Aeris's most notorious trait is her determination to look forward, not back. Which is exactly what she does at the end when she senses Zack, but doesn't turn back. Instead, she keeps looking forward where Cloud is.

As for the last part of your post, you can be goddam sure is gonna happen. It's the entire point of the FF7R story. I'll elaborate on that part later.

[Tactics]

Originally Posted by Kanon

By the way, which changes did you guys end up liking the most in the Remake? You can talk about the ones you disliked too.

Spoiler for Remake spoilers:

What I ended up like from Remake:

First is Leslie and Andrea addition. I love how those two represents "Why people are OK living on slums"
In OG I kinda questioned why does people wanted to stay in Midgar, feels weird unless they have good portion of land like Aerith's mother;
Leslie and Andrea throughout their dynamics with Cloud party easily told us, "Our efforts still paid well here, thus here we are even with Corneo presence." which is a good explanation I'm looking for considering gloomy atmosphere surrounding Midgar in OG.

Second, Sephiroth appears from start.
In OG, even after Disc 2, I don't understand what make Sephiroth deserved hype more than Jenova.
Crisis Core (Zack who arguably the best of regular SOLDIER unable to win against him) and Dissidia (able to fight some Warrior of Cosmos as well as confidence to deal with some Warrior of Chaos, both without breaking sweat) managed to explain why he worth the hype while expanding his personality, what Remake did (making him appear since first installment) is great follow up for people that been following Compilation as well as renew to those only play OG.

Third, the dance choreography as well as Aerith being your local fangirl moment, Andrea voiced by Sugita only make it better.



What I ended up dislike from Remake:

Wedge's fate, for similar reason.
I took it they wanted to make it looks like possible to change fate but there will be consequences of changing course ('not your time to die' things), ended up kinda annoying as his role kinda increased despite not necessary while also trying to told us to take note carefully about what happened to him to keep uncertainty factor in play writing-wise.

Roche, as I explained before, Kunsel name thrown kinda triggered me they have to come up with him.
Feels like they can do things better than a mere battle maniac for motorcycle content, probably some telling about Zack or maybe Angeal as Buster Sword is unique.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Speaking of the game, I just realized that...

Spoiler for Plot Point:

...the time that Cloud spent from the moment he was woken up by Aerith in the church until she got taken by Tseng was only around 24 hours. That's why it kinda felt weird for me when dream-Aerith talked to Cloud as if they've spent a great deal of time together enough for the not-love confession under the stars to happen . Man, even anime rarely go that fast with relationships unless it's part of the premise .

[Homura7]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Speaking of the game, I just realized that...

Spoiler for Plot Point:

...the time that Cloud spent from the moment he was woken up by Aerith in the church until she got taken by Tseng was only around 24 hours. That's why it kinda felt weird for me when dream-Aerith talked to Cloud as if they've spent a great deal of time together enough for the not-love confession under the stars to happen . Man, even anime rarely go that fast with relationships unless it's part of the premise .

Spoiler for spoiler:

"Aeris is the most important person in the story. Every word she says will have great meaning later on".

Nojima

If you have played the original game you will understand better why her words to Cloud make it sound like the time they have spend together and the memories they have made, is more than just 24 hrs.

But is very clear why.

Spoiler for spoiler:

As Aeris has all the memories from her past life.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Knighto

If you have played the original game you will understand better.....

And that's precisely why some newbies will see it as pretty sudden. Marketing-wise, this game is not supposed to require players to do "homeworks". Also, Aerith was only talking to Cloud in context of just that 1 day that she has spent with him.

[Homura7]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

And that's precisely why some newbies will see it as pretty sudden. Marketing-wise, this game is not supposed to require players to do "homeworks". Also, Aerith was only talking to Cloud in context of just that 1 day that she has spent with him.

This is why Nomura once said that players who played the old FF7 will have a better understanding of certain scenes when playing FF7R. He also made clear that by no means should newcomers think that just because they played FF7R there's no need for them to play FF7.

Spoiler for spoiler:

I mean, no new player will bat an eye upon hearing Aeris say "he's my bodyguard, and from Soldier. Pretty cool, right?", without Cloud saying a thing.

Or for a more blatant example...

Spoiler for spoiler:

Aeris running to Tifa and greeting her like they were already acquainted, in the Corneo mansion.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Knighto

This is why Nomura once said....(so on & so forth)...

Then blame SE's marketing, not the newcomers. Newcomers only reacted based on the marketing that they received from SE.

The "not-love confession after only 1 day" was pretty sudden for some newcomers and they're justified in thinking so at this point where we're still waiting for FF7R sequel that will explain things further.

[Homura7]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Then blame SE's marketing, not the newcomers. Newcomers only reacted based on the marketing that they received from SE.

That's precisely the point. There was no way they could spoil the endgame twist, so I wouldn't put the blame on them, either.

I think this single line spoken by Aeris towards the end is easily overlooked.

Spoiler for spoiler:

"If we win... If we succeed... We will change ourselves".

This one line is very important and a hint of what's coming.

Spoiler for spoiler:

In the ending song, Hollow, Cloud blames his own foolishness and selfishness as one of the causes that lead to the death of Aeris. He also berates himself for being blind and never realizing the huge burden Aeris was carrying.

Which I'm sure this is what the next installment is going to be about. Cloud this time will see through Aeris fake smile. He'll learn everything about her mission and her burdens. He'll completely abandon his personal revenge for her.

In short, in this new journey that is about to begin, Cloud will set right what once went wrong.

This what I'm sure the plot of FF7R is about. Hence why taking out the dementors was such a necessary step.