[Manga] Chapter 319 Discussion

[threepac3]

I could have swarn that Yamoto said that he would seal the kyubi's chakra so Naruto couldn't use it. Also didn't he (Yamoto) say that Naruto's chakra is more powerful then the Kyubi's? Its also pretty clear that Yamoto is only there to stop the kyubi power from manifesting. We have no Idea how much chakra Naruto has personally, though its a lot.

I wish someone would get direct quotes from the actual manga... What chapter was that said anyways?

[Sazelyt]

Based on what I understand a few comments on the chakra-stamina relationship: chakra is created from stamina, but that doesn't mean there is a one-to-one relationship between them (i.e., one unit of stamina does not have to make one unit of chakra - conversion efficiency may be different than one), and that doesn't mean you are able to convert all your stamina into chakra (i.e., the ratio of stamina that is convertible to chakra may not be 1), and that also doesn't mean the techniques a ninja uses do require stamina only in the form chakra.

That is where the bunshin jutsu comes into play, it is possible that stamina might be required as is (as stamina) in addition to chakra rather than as only chakra for the jutsu to continue. If that is the case, chakra (as fraction of stamina available for chakra usage) and stamina (as leftover stamina) might be considered as separate entities.

And for Yamato, if I remember correctly, he referred to what he is doing as either suppression or control (but not just control). Still, it is not wrong to use one as supporting the other, only depends on where you stand. But, I will check the chapters to see all the words he/Kakashi used to represent what Yamato is/will be doing.

[Hunter]

threepac3 check the chapter 315, page 11 & 12 in particular.
Oh and Yamato never said Naruto had more powerful chakra than the Kyubi (I mean duh!) he said Naruto was strong enough not to rely on the Kyubi.

Originally Posted by Sazelyt

Based on what I understand a few comments on the chakra-stamina relationship: chakra is created from stamina, but that doesn't mean there is a one-to-one relationship between them (i.e., one unit of stamina does not have to make one unit of chakra - conversion efficiency may be different than one), and that doesn't mean you are able to convert all your stamina into chakra (i.e., the ratio of stamina that is convertible to chakra may not be 1), and that also doesn't mean the techniques a ninja uses do require stamina only in the form chakra.

Indeed, stamina is the components of chakra but they are not the same.
You have to build chakra from stamina in the first place which require a form of chakra control. Something Sakura can do perfectly for example while Naruto waste a lot more stamina to create the same amount of chakra.

That is where the bunshin jutsu comes into play, it is possible that stamina might be required as is (as stamina) in addition to chakra rather than as only chakra for the jutsu to continue. If that is the case, chakra (as fraction of stamina available for chakra usage) and stamina (as leftover stamina) might be considered as separate entities.

Could you develop a little more about that? I find it interesting but I'm not too sure how you see that working.

And for Yamato, if I remember correctly, he referred to what he is doing as either suppression or control (but not just control). Still, it is not wrong to use one as supporting the other, only depends on where you stand. But, I will check the chapters to see all the words he/Kakashi used to represent what Yamato is/will be doing.

Are you talking about the sentence "if Yamato doesn't suppress the Kyubi" by Kakashi?
Because in the case of Yamato he did say he was there in order to help Naruto controling the chakra of the Kyubi and nothing about suppressing in this instance.

[Mr. Johnny 5]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Are you sure you have the whole chapter? You may lack two pages showing Asuma watching Kurenai through the window and Kurenai watching back.

i mustve download a wrong raw since i've downloaded another scanlation today and i finally noticed that page..thanks hunter...i missed that one....

[s-class uchiha]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Are you talking about the sentence "if Yamato doesn't suppress the Kyubi" by Kakashi?
Because in the case of Yamato he did say he was there in order to help Naruto controling the chakra of the Kyubi and nothing about suppressing in this instance.

@ Hunter [in a polite tone ]:

It could be a translation prb for suppress/control where the translator didnt really think of the consequence of using "control" vs "suppress". But in the context of the arc and no visible manifestation of kyuubi chakara (it has at every other times), don't you think "control the kyuubi chakara" means not to use it ie suppress?

Could you also explain the changing /manipulating the nature of ones chakara
in your context? B/c that would mean Naruto woudl be using Kyuubi chakara always for his neew jutsu - the ohter explanation (supression) gives us a more logical explanation. {besides with his kyuubi chakara he (or the kyuubi) has awesome chakara control e.g. the Kyuubi rasengan one handed at the VoE fight w/ Sasuke].

Also could you explain his non-manifestation of kyuubi chakara, whiskers, or eyes?
I think that the suppressition hypothesis is a much better explanation and makes the most sense from all the events we've seen.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Not using kyuubi chakra would be a direct contradiction of Jiraiya's plan and it would also mean that a dropout can match the best ninjas in the narutoworld ( who have super bloodlines, etc...) with only his own power. And that is total nonsense. Jiraiya is "sensei" to both Kakashi and Yamato, they can only learn from him, not contradict the sannin. I'm not interested in the interpretation of 1 on 2 senteces here, these reasons are much deeper than 1 or 2 translated sentences. The debate should be about the basic logic behind the story line, and i believe Naruto's kyuubi chakra is something like sharingan to Sasuke, it's was and will be his main power, those two define the whole story.

[tramadrama]

Someone needs to resurrect the 315 thread because all of this was talked about already. For everyone that thinks that Yamato is observing to void Kyubi usage, do you honestly think Naruto can make that many clones on his on merit for so many hours (1st training exercise)? It's kind of obvious why he's there. He is there to control it to make sure that it doesn't go haywire like Yamato saw during the Oro fight. The fact is that Naruto is basically, for lack of a better word, cheating. He's going against his own personal vow to never use Kyubi again to learn something quicker under the supervision of Kakashi and Yamato. If all of this constant usage gets too much for him and he "loses control" then we will see what happened last time that happened, Yamato will put an end to it. But that won't even happen because Yamato is acting like a limiter to give Naruto just enough space.

Originally Posted by s-class uchiha

Also could you explain his non-manifestation of kyuubi chakara, whiskers, or eyes?
I think that the suppressition hypothesis is a much better explanation and makes the most sense from all the events we've seen.

That's easy. Naruto vs. Gaara. Plea to Kyubi before the final headbutt. You're acting like Naruto goes crazy everytime Kyubi is involved. You forgot his first training session with Jiraiya and his fight with Neji.

[Rurik]

One thing I noted After seen the Manga, Kurenai had something on her lips could it be the same mark when she bite her lips to get out of the Itachi Genjutsu??? Or maybe Asuma has to mutch will of fire.?

And Yamato only gets more impresive by the minute.

[tramadrama]

Originally Posted by Rurik

One thing I noted After seen the Manga, Kurenai had something on her lips could it be the same mark when she bite her lips to get out of the Itachi Genjutsu??? Or maybe Asuma has to mutch will of fire.?

And Yamato only gets more impresive by the minute.

This dude had a major hand in the reconstruction of Konoha after the crush. I'd have him build my house any day. It's not even fair that he isn't hokage.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by s-class uchiha

It could be a translation prb for suppress/control where the translator didnt really think of the consequence of using "control" vs "suppress". But in the context of the arc and no visible manifestation of kyuubi chakara (it has at every other times), don't you think "control the kyuubi chakara" means not to use it ie suppress?

While you can find slightly different translations of the sentences like Kakashi saying "if Yamato doesn't suppress/hold in check the chakra of the Kyubi, supress and control in the other hand aren't the same word at all so no it can't be.
There are actually several instances of Naruto using the chakra of the Kyubi without foxy feature like the first time he summoned Gamabunta or during his first meet with Itachi & Kisame, etc. but that's not really relevant as Yamato wasn't there at these time to keep the Kyubi in control while Naruto could use its chakra without risk.

Could you also explain the changing /manipulating the nature of ones chakara
in your context? B/c that would mean Naruto woudl be using Kyuubi chakara always for his neew jutsu - the ohter explanation (supression) gives us a more logical explanation. {besides with his kyuubi chakara he (or the kyuubi) has awesome chakara control e.g. the Kyuubi rasengan one handed at the VoE fight w/ Sasuke].

In other word your question is why the nature of Naruto's chakra would still be wind if Kyubi's chakra wasn't suppressed?
I would say why not? I mean do you really think Naruto will only be able to use wind jutsu if Yamato is around?
I'm not sure you thought about it but Naruto only able to do what he does with the Kyubi's presence suppressed by Yamato means he would need Yamato as a babysitter all his life!

Yamato is helping Naruto to control the Kyubi yes, but I'm sure it's temporary. It's difficult to control the Kyubi when he's borrowing huge amount of chakra because the seal is weakening but I can't imagine Naruto not ever being able to control it without Yamato.
If that was the case he would never be able to fight alone anymore and would have to rely completely on Yamato in the same way he thought he had to completely rely on the Kyubi before.

As Ero-Senn1n said, there is no shame for Naruto to use the chakra of the Kyubi, that's his special feature after all.
The problem Yamato pointed out to him during the last arc was that he let himself being used by this power.

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Could you develop a little more about that? I find it interesting but I'm not too sure how you see that working.

In my previous comments, I have mentioned that there is a crossing line between stamina and chakra, hence it is possible to consider them having a relationship similar to what a class (chakra) and a school (stamina) have.

I will use an example from the chuunin exam. The amount of usable-chakra Naruto has at that time should be lower than Kakashi's (and the effective value of it should be much lower than Kakashi's because of using it in a highly inefficient way). So, the amount of chakra each of Naruto's clones gets should be very low. But, despite that low chakra level each clone has, Naruto was able keep his clones alive for a few hours (maybe if he hadn't fought he could have kept them alive for much longer). At that time he was using only his own chakra. The clones being alive (at least the three that was transformed to others) for a few hours despite each having very low chakra makes me think the lifetime of a clone might be related to stamina as a whole (as both the portion that is converted to chakra and the remaining portion that is not converted to chakra). It seems logical because with or without Kyuubi's direct interference Naruto has always had huge amount of stamina. Also, this way, the inefficient chakra usage does not become a major role player. To me, the situation seems more like, to stay alive, the clones can eat from the stamina directly rather than eating from the stamina that is converted to chakra.

Originally Posted by Hunter

Are you talking about the sentence "if Yamato doesn't suppress the Kyubi" by Kakashi?
Because in the case of Yamato he did say he was there in order to help Naruto controling the chakra of the Kyubi and nothing about suppressing in this instance.

I have checked the scanlations. As yousaid, Yamato seem to use only control. I guess either one of the translations used suppress instead of control, or Kakashi's word suppressed Yamato's control.

[s-class uchiha]

Originally Posted by Hunter

While you can find slightly different translations of the sentences like Kakashi saying "if Yamato doesn't suppress/hold in check the chakra of the Kyubi, supress and control in the other hand aren't the same word at all so no it can't be.
There are actually several instances of Naruto using the chakra of the Kyubi without foxy feature like the first time he summoned Gamabunta or during his first meet with Itachi & Kisame, etc. but that's not really relevant as Yamato wasn't there at these time to keep the Kyubi in control while Naruto could use its chakra without risk.

Well that was for one immediate blast, though a good point. Every other time he used it for anything more than split second was followed up by other manifestations. Plus Naruto needed a huge amount of chakara (not type) to bring out Gama - at the time he needed to use the kyuubi's b/c his own chakara use was poor.

Originally Posted by Hunter

In other word your question is why the nature of Naruto's chakra would still be wind if Kyubi's chakra wasn't suppressed?
I would say why not? I mean do you really think Naruto will only be able to use wind jutsu if Yamato is around?
I'm not sure you thought about it but Naruto only able to do what he does with the Kyubi's presence suppressed by Yamato means he would need Yamato as a babysitter all his life!

Yamato is helping Naruto to control the Kyubi yes, but I'm sure it's temporary. It's difficult to control the Kyubi when he's borrowing huge amount of chakra because the seal is weakening but I can't imagine Naruto not ever being able to control it without Yamato.
If that was the case he would never be able to fight alone anymore and would have to rely completely on Yamato in the same way he thought he had to completely rely on the Kyubi before.

As Ero-Senn1n said, there is no shame for Naruto to use the chakra of the Kyubi, that's his special feature after all.
The problem Yamato pointed out to him during the last arc was that he let himself being used by this power.

Yes i thought about it! haha

Before it was stated the nature of the Kyuubi's chakara is different. Right now naruto is trying to wean out only his normal chakara and make it wind. Yamato's sealing/controlling abilities is all about suppressing the Chakara, not letting Naruto use some of it and what not.

If Yamato's ability was to control it then his supression at the bridge would've been a different story. He controlled naruto's chakara there, right? And what i was trying to say earlier is that when you say "yamato controls demon chakara" you could take it as him controlling the chakara and using it OR you could take it as supressing thus controlling it that way.


Yamato is there to control the intermixing of the chakaras and stunting Naruto's "growth." Otherwise why not let him use the kyuubi chakara and go buck wild?

Its also the issue of chakara control. He has some awesome Kyuubi chakara control (cuz kyuubi's controlling it) so he needs to suppress any of that in order to learn his new jutsu. [it get in the way].

yea after he learns it, let him use his kyuubi chakara w/ it ! It'll def. be a WMD.

Thx for the reply btw.

[Chosen]

Wasnt there told something about Dark and Light nature aswell? I wonder if Naruto can obtain the Dark nature from Kyuubi! And what can he create by using wind + darkness?

[tramadrama]

Originally Posted by s-class uchiha

Well that was for one immediate blast, though a good point. Every other time he used it for anything more than split second was followed up by other manifestations. Plus Naruto needed a huge amount of chakara (not type) to bring out Gama - at the time he needed to use the kyuubi's b/c his own chakara use was poor.



Yes i thought about it! haha

Before it was stated the nature of the Kyuubi's chakara is different. Right now naruto is trying to wean out only his normal chakara and make it wind. Yamato's sealing/controlling abilities is all about suppressing the Chakara, not letting Naruto use some of it and what not.

If Yamato's ability was to control it then his supression at the bridge would've been a different story. He controlled naruto's chakara there, right? And what i was trying to say earlier is that when you say "yamato controls demon chakara" you could take it as him controlling the chakara and using it OR you could take it as supressing thus controlling it that way.


Yamato is there to control the intermixing of the chakaras and stunting Naruto's "growth." Otherwise why not let him use the kyuubi chakara and go buck wild?

Its also the issue of chakara control. He has some awesome Kyuubi chakara control (cuz kyuubi's controlling it) so he needs to suppress any of that in order to learn his new jutsu. [it get in the way].

yea after he learns it, let him use his kyuubi chakara w/ it ! It'll def. be a WMD.

Thx for the reply btw.

Okay boys and rave

It's time for the first issue of Tramadrama's Endless Attempt To Compare Naruto to DBZ!

I'll let you play first, s-class because you keep saying stuff like the thing that is bolded in your quote above. So, let's begin:

Today's topic is, Naruto's Kyubi Levels, as dubbed by everyone one time or another on here and me as well. Let's start off with.

1. KyubiKen - Kyubiken, named after DBZ's KaoKen, was first introduced to us when Naruto learned to use Kyubi's chakra during summoning training. Later, a more full blown version was introduced to us when Neji was carried off in a stretcher, thanks to Naruto.

2. Ultra KyubiKen - Ultra Kyubiken, named after DBZ's Ultra Super Saiyan, was first introduced during the Haku/Naruto/Sasuke fight. This is where Naruto's eyes get fierce, yada yada yada, you know what I'm talking about.

3. Kyubi LV 1 - Named after the normal Super Saiyan level, first introduced during Sasuke and Naruto's lover's quarrel. This is where he did the bubble Kyubi thing. You know, his body aura, something or another.

4. Kyubi LV 2 - Never introducd, only a concept. We all know it exists.

5. Kyubi LV 3 - First introduced against Oro at the end of Chapter 291.

6. Kyubi LV 4 - The last level shown in the manga so far. It was so powerful it burned his skin.

So, what's the point of all this and I know you're all asking, "Is this on topic?" The answer is, OF COURSE! Numbers 2-6 were brought out by pure emotion alone, while KyubiKen, came out through Naruto's on free will. So, just like the conclusion similar to what Ace Ventura screamed on When Nature Calls,

That's what Naruto is using! That's what brings out mass KBs! And anything else is what Yamato's trying to prevent.

Thanks for playing.

Edit: Although I doubt he's using it right now because his only using 10 KBs. Well, he did use Kyubi's Chakra a little at the end.

And let me comment on something: Naruto truly is an idiot LOL. Basically, he did it with 10 KBs, but because his mind is so freaking blah, he probably thinks it took a mass amount of KBs to even remotely do it right. Geez, Naruto.

[Illuyankas]

I do remember reading here that the animation team didn't show Naruto having red eyes and larger whiskers and canines while using Kyubi chakra in several scenes in the anime, when he did have them in the manga. I don't have the earlier chapters, so I can't check personally, but does anyone else remember this?

[Zek]

Naruto showed Kyuubi eyes when he summoned Gamabunta against Gaara in the manga, but not the anime. I think that also happened when he used a Rasengan against Tsunade.

I don't think Naruto is using Kyuubi power now at all, at least not directly. Tajyuu Kage Bunshin is something he's been able to do without Kyuubi chakra since chapter 1. His personal chakra is probably exponentially higher now than it was then. He has an abnormal amount of chakra because of Kyuubi's influence on him over his lifetime - as Oro said, their chakra has been merging all this time. But that's not the same as drawing on Kyuubi's chakra. Yamamoto is holding Kyuubi's chakra back completely so Naruto can use every last bit of his own without losing control, if I understood the explanation correctly.

I think we've seen the end of Naruto using Kyuubi powerups at all, even the mild chakra aura he used against Neji. He's through with relying on Kyuubi's power, especially now that he can't seem to use even a small amount of it without it overtaking him. Instead, he's taking advantage of his Kyuubi perks to use a disgustingly powerful training technique that puts his development on a higher level than even a genius like Sasuke, so he can become strong on his own merits like Yamato was saying. This is Kishimoto finally turning Naruto into a strong ninja instead of just an outlet for Kyuubi's chakra, even if it takes a bit of a leap of faith to pull it off.

[s-class uchiha]

Originally Posted by tramadrama

Okay boys and rave

It's time for the first issue of Tramadrama's Endless Attempt To Compare Naruto to DBZ!

I'll let you play first, s-class because you keep saying stuff like the thing that is bolded in your quote above. So, let's begin:

Today's topic is, Naruto's Kyubi Levels, as dubbed by everyone one time or another on here and me as well. Let's start off with.

1. KyubiKen - Kyubiken, named after DBZ's KaoKen, was first introduced to us when Naruto learned to use Kyubi's chakra during summoning training. Later, a more full blown version was introduced to us when Neji was carried off in a stretcher, thanks to Naruto.

2. Ultra KyubiKen - Ultra Kyubiken, named after DBZ's Ultra Super Saiyan, was first introduced during the Haku/Naruto/Sasuke fight. This is where Naruto's eyes get fierce, yada yada yada, you know what I'm talking about.

3. Kyubi LV 1 - Named after the normal Super Saiyan level, first introduced during Sasuke and Naruto's lover's quarrel. This is where he did the bubble Kyubi thing. You know, his body aura, something or another.

4. Kyubi LV 2 - Never introducd, only a concept. We all know it exists.

5. Kyubi LV 3 - First introduced against Oro at the end of Chapter 291.

6. Kyubi LV 4 - The last level shown in the manga so far. It was so powerful it burned his skin.

So, what's the point of all this and I know you're all asking, "Is this on topic?" The answer is, OF COURSE! Numbers 2-6 were brought out by pure emotion alone, while KyubiKen, came out through Naruto's on free will. So, just like the conclusion similar to what Ace Ventura screamed on When Nature Calls,

That's what Naruto is using! That's what brings out mass KBs! And anything else is what Yamato's trying to prevent.

Thanks for playing.

Edit: Although I doubt he's using it right now because his only using 10 KBs. Well, he did use Kyubi's Chakra a little at the end.

And let me comment on something: Naruto truly is an idiot LOL. Basically, he did it with 10 KBs, but because his mind is so freaking blah, he probably thinks it took a mass amount of KBs to even remotely do it right. Geez, Naruto.

I like this game - Thx Tramadrama fo yo Mama!

Yes there is Black hairuto - you know the Naruto that doesn't use any kyuubi chakara. The naruto that was fighting Neji b4 kyuubi popped out. This guy can do massive KB w/o Kyuubi chakara. And he didn't use kyuubi's chakara at the end.

edit: Like Goku b4 kaioken and ssj... he could still do Kamehamehas. Look at the Gaara fight, Naruto did Tajuu Kage Bunshin and then as Shukaku came out and was about to Desert Coffin him he said - "I wasted all MY CHAKARA on the KBs." See then he resorted to Kyuubis.

Also when he did his "summoning thing" he was thrown over a cliff and faced in alife or death situation ie EMOTIONS.

What do i win?

@ Everyone- Besides Naruto has to call on Kyuubi chakara... Remember all those scenes of Naruto talkin to Kyuubi, and kyuubi GIVING him chakara. B4 he gave it to him, Naruto wasn't using it. Right now, Yamato is preventing Kyuubi from giving his Chakara to Naruto not merely contain it.

Yamato is making sure Naruto does not use the kyuubis. Look at all the real fights he has had so far post timeskip, he just starts using the Kyuubi chakara w/o reservation now, thus the need for Yamato to restrain him.

Like suppressing SSJ in Goku b/c whenever he gets stressed out he will basically automatically go SSJ. in this case yamato would suppress SSJ/kyuubi no matter the difficulty, stress, emotional high of the task.

[kikko_s]

Originally Posted by Rurik

No, people seen to be Neglecting why Naruto learned this so fast in the first place, Sasuke could learn the Manipulation in days Because he is a genius, Naruto could Learn Manipulation quicker than Sasuke because he was using His Clones.

So is not that he is a faster learner than Sasauke, Is that he has a shortcut that help him learn thing faster, this is equivalent to the dragon balll time chamber, Goku learning somehitng in Days inside the Chamber, does not make him a quicker learner than Somene that took days outside the Chamber.

This does not make Naruto better than Sasuke or the other way around.

Even so, Sasuke's manipulation didn't seem to be as refined or as powerful as Kakashi's (with regard to Chidori at least) back when he learned it. The Rasengan and Chidori when used by Naruto and Sasuke way back when seem to have been relatively matched. Just because you can do the manipulation doesn't necessarily make any technique using it automatically more powerful than one that doesn't. Even if Sasuke learned manipulation faster through his genius, it might still take him much longer to get the kind of mastery that Naruto could get with his massive amount of clones. If only Sasuke could do shadow clones.

[tramadrama]

Originally Posted by s-class uchiha

Yamato is making sure Naruto does not use the kyuubis. Look at all the real fights he has had so far post timeskip, he just starts using the Kyuubi chakara w/o reservation now, thus the need for Yamato to restrain him.

Why does my mom have to be brought into this? Anyway, so, what you are saying is that Narurto doesn't know how to separate the two? You are telling me that he needs monitoring to control, or, you might as well say filter (according your definition) his own chakra from Kyubi's chakra? If that's what you are saying, then that throws Jiraiya right out of the window, because Naruto finally learned how to do that thanks to Jiraiya. He knows how to use his own chakra instead of Kyubi's. So Yamato would be unnecessary.

Naruto, on his own, has approximately twice the amount of chakra than Kakashi has. This means also that Naruto, on his own, can do approximately twice the number of clones for approximately twice the amount of time than Kakakashi has. I don't think Kakashi can do 500 KBs, but that's you seem to be saying. But, if naruto incorporates Kyubi's chakra, he'll have approximately 100 times the amount of chakra than Kakashi has. So, to use that as canon and say, for example, that Kakashi's limit is 8 KBs, then multiply that by 100 and that is 800 KB that Naruto can do.

That is why it is so obvious that Naruto is incorporating Kyubi's chakra with his own right now and Yamato is there to limit Kyubi from completely taking over. In other words, even the word "suppress" has it's limitations. When you put a suppressor on a gun, the gun still makes a noise. It limits the sound, just like Yamato is limiting Naruto, but not by that much, he's there more or less for precaution. That's the best way I can explain it s-class. If you choose to believe that Naruto is doing all of this on his own merit, then, I can't stop you from going on here and stating otherwise, but I'm not going to use anymore of this forum's space to point out the obvious.

[raikage]

Originally Posted by Chosen

Wasnt there told something about Dark and Light nature aswell? I wonder if Naruto can obtain the Dark nature from Kyuubi! And what can he create by using wind + darkness?

I would assume that dark = offensive/sealing type and light = defensive/non-combat types. But who knows?