Mobile Suit Gundam: The Witch From Mercury - General Discussion Thread

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Kanon

What he means is that Gundam usually frames Newtypes and others like them as the future of humanity and therefore a good thing. The GUND system was meant to help humanity adapt to the harshness of space, so this series probably won't be different.

The way I see it, the human race as it is right now is perfectly adapted to its current environment, namely Earth. But evolution is a matter of adaptation, meaning that if Earth's environment changes significantly or if we're forced to travel to other planets, humanity will have to change to adapt to those new environment conditions. That change might happen naturally, like natural evolution, or we might end up using technology to change. Either way, change is a necessity to adapt to new environments. There's no avoiding that.

So, going back to the context of Gundam, if humanity was forced to live in space because, for example, Earth's environment is fucked beyond recognition and wasn't habitable anymore, then the claim that newtypes are the future of humanity would have some merits, since newtypes are supposed to be better adapted to living conditions in space (like zero gravity) than normal humans. On the other hand, if Earth was perfectly habitable and there's no need to move on to space, claiming that newtypes are the future of humanity would feel like a misguided assertion. Like something motivated more by arrogance than anything else.

The thing about Gundam is that it's hard to say that humanity's future is in space because Earth is still habitable even if it's quite damaged. In that context newtypes feel more like isolated anomalies than the true evolution of humanity.

[Frontier]

I guess I related to it more in terms of them being necessary prosthetics for people who need them, which then evolved into a life-size version in the Gundam's, even though they were being adapted to war.

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

The way I see it, the human race as it is right now is perfectly adapted to its current environment, namely Earth. But evolution is a matter of adaptation, meaning that if Earth's environment changes significantly or if we're forced to travel to other planets, humanity will have to change to adapt to those new environment conditions. That change might happen naturally, like natural evolution, or we might end up using technology to change. Either way, change is a necessity to adapt to new environments. There's no avoiding that.

So, going back to the context of Gundam, if humanity was forced to live in space because, for example, Earth's environment is fucked beyond recognition and wasn't habitable anymore, then the claim that newtypes are the future of humanity would have some merits, since newtypes are supposed to be better adapted to living conditions in space (like zero gravity) than normal humans. On the other hand, if Earth was perfectly habitable and there's no need to move on to space, claiming that newtypes are the future of humanity would feel like a misguided assertion. Like something motivated more by arrogance than anything else.

The thing about Gundam is that it's hard to say that humanity's future is in space because Earth is still habitable even if it's quite damaged. In that context newtypes feel more like isolated anomalies than the true evolution of humanity.

It feels like a lot of UC Gundam talk about how stifling and dead end Earth is in comparison to the potential of space and humanity's evolution...even if that doesn't make it okay to drop a colony or a meteor on it.

[Tactics]

Originally Posted by Chosen_Hero

With that said, the animation and artstyle is on point and am glad they chose to forgo 3d animation for the mobile suits and went with hand drawn instead, this just looks really good in motion.

There are 3D involvement for mobile suits action, concealed nicely if I must say.
Not on level of big project like Hathaway or Cucuruz Doan for sure, simply to aid unusual shot like step on MS which made sense after they tried showing Devise Exia gears totally made sense through CG even if it just for promoting new toys.

[Chosen_Hero]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

I don't know what you're talking about. The franchise has quite a few examples of "bad Newtypes" & "bad Innovados" out there. The "good side" are the people who don't seek war or hurt others (among other virtues).

Originally Posted by Kanon

What he means is that Gundam usually frames Newtypes and others like them as the future of humanity and therefore a good thing. The GUND system was meant to help humanity adapt to the harshness of space, so this series probably won't be different.

This, while in Gundam shows they do tend to have some bad actors on the side of transhumanism at the end of the day they still glorify it in some way, for example, as much as I love Gundam 00 the movie turned me off because of how it ends with (if I remember correctly) Setsuna becoming an Innovado as "the next step in human evolution" or something (it's been a long time and about all I remember about that movie is aliens... boy that was stupid) and then there's SEED where Kira who is a coordinator is basically just space Jesus.

And before anyone points out that those are AU series, the UC has Newtypes which are somehow an even worse concept (at least in my personal opinion).

[Key Board]

I believe Newtypes the way Tomino envisioned them, were supposed to be just people who are exploited for war and political purposes. By F91 Gundam's era the world Newtype no longer has any political power.

Gundam X goes even further and has the Amuro Ray proxy saying that Newtypes are just mutants, in addition to also having the protagonist be just a normal person.

But someone at Sunrise must have really resented that, because Gundam Unicorn came along and doubled down on the "newtypes are the heirs of humanity and we must yield to them" document and yes, that really poisoned the well.

So yes, I can understand where your concern comes from, but I suspect this is going for the gundam wing mobile dolls argument. ( Ie: how increased automation dehumanizes war)

with additional twists because I suspect the Gundam itself is self aware

//

[LoweGear]

Originally Posted by Key Board

But someone at Sunrise must have really resented that, because Gundam Unicorn came along and doubled down on the "newtypes are the heirs of humanity and we must yield to them" document and yes, that really poisoned the well.


//

Unicorn was originally a novel, so any of the ideas translated to anime would've originally come from there.

Though yeah, given the focus of series like IBO and now WFM less on mysticism and more on technology, I think most writers realize that Newtypes as they are tend to be difficult to work with properly. At the least, even if they ended up using similar themes for the GUND Format here, it'll still be markedly different from Newtypes because GUND is a decidedly human creation that took work to bring to fruition and with a much clearer focus, whereas Newtypes are just mystical space psychics that came about because... who knows.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Kanon

What he means is that Gundam usually frames Newtypes and others like them as the future of humanity and therefore a good thing. The GUND system was meant to help humanity adapt to the harshness of space, so this series probably won't be different.

Originally Posted by Chosen_Hero

This, while in Gundam shows they do tend to have some bad actors on the side of transhumanism at the end of the day they still glorify it in some way, for example, as much as I love Gundam 00 the movie turned me off because of how it ends with (if I remember correctly) Setsuna becoming an Innovado as "the next step in human evolution" or something (it's been a long time and about all I remember about that movie is aliens... boy that was stupid) and then there's SEED where Kira who is a coordinator is basically just space Jesus.

And before anyone points out that those are AU series, the UC has Newtypes which are somehow an even worse concept (at least in my personal opinion).

Originally Posted by Key Board

I believe Newtypes the way Tomino envisioned them, were supposed to be just people who are exploited for war and political purposes. By F91 Gundam's era the world Newtype no longer has any political power.

Has it ever occured to you that "transhumanist" as the "future of humanity" is something neutral instead of something either good or evil? For example, back when people had no modern medicine, they dreamed that advanced medicine will be the "future of humanity". And those past people were right. Advanced medicine is now one aspect of "the future" that we can enjoy. But just like anything else, drugs can be used for something good or something bad.

My explanation goes along the way of Kazu-kun's above. Newtype and the likes is a form of human adaptation to live in harsher environment like space. What makes it "good" or "evil" is how each individual uses the power just like every other powers out there. Newtype power and the likes are neither "holy magic" nor "black magic".

Gundam shows depicted Newtypes like Amuro, Coordinators like Kira, Innovators like Setsuna as something good because they used their powers for good. Meanwhile, Newtypes like Haman & Scirocco, Coordinators like Patrick Zala & Durandal, Innovedos like Ribbons Almark & Hiling Care are the glaring examples of the bad ones simply coz they were bad people who seek to abuse & hurt others.

And it's not like Gundam is short of "Oldtype" or regular human characters who are good people.

[Tactics]

Originally Posted by Chosen_Hero

This, while in Gundam shows they do tend to have some bad actors on the side of transhumanism at the end of the day they still glorify it in some way, for example, as much as I love Gundam 00 the movie turned me off because of how it ends with (if I remember correctly) Setsuna becoming an Innovado as "the next step in human evolution" or something (it's been a long time and about all I remember about that movie is aliens... boy that was stupid) and then there's SEED where Kira who is a coordinator is basically just space Jesus.

And before anyone points out that those are AU series, the UC has Newtypes which are somehow an even worse concept (at least in my personal opinion).

I'd rather points out SEED already did good job about it that I'd like to disagree about space human portrayed on good light.

Klueze spent his life in insecurity being defective clones, hiding fact he's Natural, contrast to all rich, luxury life Coordinators even among low-rank officer.
Patrick Zala was an extremist but can you really blame him considering his driving force is that simple fact his wife killed in Junius 7 by Naturals?
Durandal wanted world peace through genetic modification; a good endgame once all Naturals wiped, or to be more precise, extinct as genetically-modified human will take over.

NGL, you really need Space Jesus there just to close the story; feels like chaos can happen anytime soon if they actually going deep about Natural vs. Coordinator.



I'd say space human looking all good strictly on 00. AFAIK 00 is the first time telepathic communication perceived as something good with side-story elaborate about how Innovators started fine as minority, feared because they can read people mind and have far higher life expectancy than normal human; ended with a "peaceful solution" through arrival of alien threats and space exploration. Not even Amuro and Char got that kind of luxury; most of times its: some of them good, some of them bad.

For this works, I'll keep my expectation in-between Code Geass and Valvrave.
The space human will be something similar to Magius (long life, can transfer consciousness) or villain reveal his plan is similar to Charles, unity through data stream or both.

[Key Board]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Has it ever occured to you that "transhumanist" as the "future of humanity" is something neutral instead of something either good or evil? For example, back when people had no modern medicine, they dreamed that advanced medicine will be the "future of humanity". And those past people were right. Advanced medicine is now one aspect of "the future" that we can enjoy. But just like anything else, drugs can be used for something good or something bad.

Transhumanism is different from medicine, IMO.

The IRL potential problems with transhumanism is engineer babies and eugenics, which is further made worse by wealth gap and racism. Even Gundam SEED has already tried to tackle this issues.

But regardless, the belief that transhumans should be held in higher regard than others is a dangerous thing to preach in Gundam, IMO.

And once again, that's why I think Gundam Unicorn poisoned the well with its Lapace Box document


//

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Key Board

Transhumanism is different from medicine, IMO.

The IRL potential problems with transhumanism is engineer babies and eugenics, which is further made worse by wealth gap and racism. Even Gundam SEED has already tried to tackle this issues.

But regardless, the belief that transhumans should be held in higher regard than others is a dangerous thing to preach in Gundam, IMO.

And once again, that's why I think Gundam Unicorn poisoned the well with its Lapace Box document


//

First, transhumanism does not equal wealth. Lalah was a Newtype, but she was a prostitute before Char swooped in and saved her. Not all transhumanists work like Coordinators.

Second, Gundam generally presented characters who blindly believed in the superiority of the Spacenoids/Newtyypes/transhumanism as being misguided at best & fascist at worst. Guys like Gihren Zabi (MSG), Seidel Rasso (X), Patrick Zala (SEED), Gilbert Durandal (Destiny) are the glaring examples.

Third, the Laplace Original UC Charter was there to give Newtypes (once their existence is made official) a very basic rights of having a role in the government. It's not even a particularly big role. Just give them a role, and their representatives may or may not climb the ladder on their own effort as a politician. As a group of people who have the potential to inherit space from Oldtypes in the future, I don't think such arrangement is bad.

In WFM's case (from what I can get so far based on very limited source), a society made of the GUND people with bionic prosthetics can be achieved with proper management. We already have a very close example in Ghost in the Shell.

[ryllharu]

I took the GUND stuff as merely the approach to survive better in space. It's not transhumanism in terms of superiority, it is protheses and supplmental/replacement organs because cosmic rays, radiation, and prolonged zero-G ravage the human body. Stuff we know from science today thanks to all the real-world space agency studies on the long-term effect. WFM is very grounded on that aspect.

The danger came from when they adapted the GUND-Format into a MS, which as a huge robot, causes significant higher drain on a person's mental faculties unless they are able to sync with it better like Ericht does. At least to me, what Ericht is doing isn't any different from the younger generation being much more natively tuned to technology of the era. Like a child who very intuitively uses a smartphone.

Ericht thought of the Gundam exactly as the Professor described it, like another child. She spoke to it and personified it. As a result, she didn't struggle to sync with it like her mother and the others do because to some degree they're afraid of it. She jumped right down to the bottom layer of connectivity with it because she treats the technology differently.

I don't think that's transhumanism so much as Personification. Human-Machine Interface, not Brain-Machine Interface.

My hope is that WFM is just completely side-stepping the Newtype angle.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by ryllharu

I took the GUND stuff as merely the approach to survive better in space. It's not transhumanism in terms of superiority, it is protheses and supplmental/replacement organs because cosmic rays, radiation, and prolonged zero-G ravage the human body. Stuff we know from science today thanks to all the real-world space agency studies on the long-term effect. WFM is very grounded on that aspect.

You can tell the writers put a little more thought into this than in previous Gundam shows. The GUND system is presented as a specific solution to a specific problem. Cosmic radiation and zero-gravity damage the human body and the GUND system tackles this issues by replacing body parts and organs that have been afflicted.

If the GUND system is seeing as the future, it's only because it's necessary to survive in space. This is very different to crap like Coordinators and Innovators which didn't have much of a reason to exist other than to create conflict and drama.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

If the GUND system is seeing as the future, it's only because it's necessary to survive in space. This is very different to crap like Coordinators and Innovators which didn't have much of reason to exist other than to create conflict and drama.

I mean, SEED's basic premise is war based on eugenics & racism. Just like the Eugenics War in Star Trek that give birth to one of the franchise's most celebrated character, Khan. Heck, SEED's entire premise was almost like an elaboration on Eugenics War.

As for Innovators, they actually saved humanity during the endgame of Gundam 00. Without CB, Setsuna & Gundams, humanity would've been turned into ELS. Aeolia Schenberg actually played a looong game by creating the long-lasting Innovades first to (unconsciously) seek people who have the potential to become Innovators like Setsuna to help humanity face the ELS, not with aggression but understanding via brainwaves.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

I mean, SEED's basic premise is war based on eugenics & racism.

And that's my point. The writers came up with it to create conflict and drama. But if you think about it from a Watsonian perspective, the reason why the people living in the Seed universe created the Coordinators is not relevant. The show assumes that it's natural for humanity to play around with genetic engineering to create super humans and doesn't really dive into the "why" all that much. What's relevant is only the conflict it produces (racism and such).

WFM is different though. The GUND system has nothing to do with transhumanism or eugenics. It's just prostheses. It's a very specific solution to a very specific problem. Just like a vaccine is created to cure a specific disease, the GUND system was created to help humanity survive cosmic radiation and zero gravity. Besides, while there is a conflict between Earth and Space going on, it doesn't seem to be motivated by the GUND system. It seems very clear the conflict between Earth and Space is driven purely by political and economical interest. Specially economical interest since the governments seem to have been overtaken by mega-corporations in this universe. The GUND system only brought attention when it was repurposed for military purpose.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

And that's my point. The writers came up with it to create conflict and drama. But if you think about it from a Watsonian perspective, the reason why the people living in the Seed universe created the Coordinators is not relevant. The show assumes that it's natural for humanity to play around with genetic engineering to create super humans and doesn't really dive into the "why" all that much. What's relevant is only the conflict it produces (racism and such).

But they did. It's part of SEED's history before their calendar changed from AD into CE. They even dedicated one full episode for a flashback on how the Coordinators came to be. It all started with...

Spoiler for SEED History plot point:

A group of people (most definitely scientists) who did secret experimentation on someone who later became George Glenn, the very first Coordinator ever. George went on and obtained his PhD from MIT at the age of 17 while also became Olympic Medalist & American Football star player making him famous around the world. Then he went on to do research on Aerospace engineering. After that, he started a chain of events in his career that would change the society. This is straight from Wiki:

Glenn would embark on the Jupiter Exploration Mission for the Atlantic Federation's FASA (Federal Aeronautics and Space Administration), on a spaceship which he designed (the Tsiolkovsky), which would take seven years. Before he embarked on his journey, he revealed a shocking truth to the people of Earth. Glenn explained that he was not born through natural means and that his genes were modified artificially early in his life. He explains that his body surpasses that of unaltered humans in every aspect-strength, intelligence, and creativity.

After receiving such shocking reveal, rich or powerful families around the world were racing to make their heirs & offsprings into superior children like George. That was the origin of Coordinators existence & growing community until most of them were fed up with living on Earth due to persecution, assassinations & other terrorist acts by Naturals under extremist organizations like Blue Cosmos. Most of Coordinators then took refuge in space and live within PLANTs. Kira & Mu's dads (Ulen Hibiki & Al Da Flaga) are among the long line of examples of Naturals who wanted to have superior children through bio-engineering.

[Tactics]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

And that's my point. The writers came up with it to create conflict and drama. But if you think about it from a Watsonian perspective, the reason why the people living in the Seed universe created the Coordinators is not relevant. The show assumes that it's natural for humanity to play around with genetic engineering to create super humans and doesn't really dive into the "why" all that much. What's relevant is only the conflict it produces (racism and such).

Let say SEED seriously tackles it, what to do? Kill the conglomerates then walk away in Cross Ange style?

Conglomerates wanted perfect heir, superior human as their successor so they resorted to genetic modification. A very specific solution to very specific problem.
Illegal at first as well. CMIIW I think there are some scenes that implied humanity is able to made leap in technological advance as Coordinators increased, especially on subject related to space exploration, made it understandable it became more difficult to say 'No' to Coordinator existence. Azrael kind of prove that Klueze "wipe humanity" solution is on point to put the end to everything as he, an anti-Coordinator activist, resorted to enhanced human. Even if Naturals win, another kind of Coordinator will be made sooner or later by "demand".

[ryllharu]

Those themes are still present in WFM, but they're all an excuse by corrupt bureaucrats hellbent on destroying a potential competitor.

Cathedral destroyed Vanadis (GUND system for medical purposes) and Ochs Earth (gundams) under the very unsubtle analogy of a witch hunt with the lie that it was for Mobile Suit development Safety and Ethics. Something they were preparing for years to do and were even underway on their inquisition mission well before they were given official authority to do so.

The series is very on the nose, but the reasons behind it are very different from previous Gundam Universes. It's literal cutthroat business.

Some of the Council were even expecting the Doctor and Ochs to just Cease and Desist. Delling on the other hand was always planning to exterminate them.

Edit:
The news broadcast is pretty telling. Earth wants Poverty Reduction, Free Trade, Education. Spacians want Defense Spending, Free Competition, and more construction spending.

So Spacian businesses conspired to destroy Earth's native military tech. Now they can do whatever they want, and obviously have by the start of the main series, considering they run the school and all the elites (main cast) are corporate heirs.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

But they did. It's part of SEED's history before their calendar changed from AD into CE. They even dedicated one full episode for a flashback on how the Coordinators came to be. It all started with...

Spoiler for SEED History plot point:

A group of people (most definitely scientists) who did secret experimentation on someone who later became George Glenn, the very first Coordinator ever. George went on and obtained his PhD from MIT at the age of 17 while also became Olympic Medalist & American Football star player making him famous around the world. Then he went on to do research on Aerospace engineering. After that, he started a chain of events in his career that would change the society. This is straight from Wiki:



After receiving such shocking reveal, rich or powerful families around the world were racing to make their heirs & offsprings into superior children like George. That was the origin of Coordinators existence & growing community until most of them were fed up with living on Earth due to persecution, assassinations & other terrorist acts by Naturals under extremist organizations like Blue Cosmos. Most of Coordinators then took refuge in space and live within PLANTs. Kira & Mu's dads (Ulen Hibiki & Al Da Flaga) are among the long line of examples of Naturals who wanted to have superior children through bio-engineering.

The explains the "how" but not the "why." People were experimenting on people because they can. The show didn't bother to go deeper into it because it wasn't relevant. Which is okay. I'm not shitting on Seed. I'm just trying to point out the differences between WFM and previous Gundam shows.

That GUND system is a specific solution for a specific problem rather than transhumanism, and the conflict is political and economically-motivated rather than sociological. This is like the opposite of Seed. It's more grounded in the sense that it tackles themes that are more relevant to current times.

Just look at the news broadcast from the Prologue that ryllharu mentioned: Earth wants Poverty Reduction, Free Trade, Education. Spacians want Defense Spending, Free Competition, and more construction spending. These aren't socio-philosophical issues. These are economical and political issues. The sort of issues you see on the news today.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

The explains the "how" but not the "why."

It was explained right there. "Why" Coordinators boomed in SEED history was because...

Spoiler for SEED history:

...rich/powerful families wanted their own "superior children" after George Glenn opened the can of worms by announcing his true identity. George was a product of curiosity, like the first Dinosaurs made by Jurassic Park scientists. But what followed was a flood of demand by the rich & powerful people to "secure their heirs" via bio-engineering after witnessing how successful George was.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Spoiler:

George was a product of curiosity

Which is what I said. He did it because he can. There was no deeper reason. Which is fine.

Like I said, I wasn't shitting on Seed. I was just explaining why WFM is pretty different from previous Gundam shows.