Honey and Clover II

[ChainLegacy]

Originally Posted by Theowne

Ah...this gets to me....as soon as I finish watching the sub and come here for discussion.....the discussion of the next episode RAW is already started

Spoiler for for anyone who still cares about ep 10:

Anyways....about ep10....I could never really picture anything between Morita and Hagu...but after this episode...I don't know anymore....I used to side with Takemoto, but now after this episode, I can't really see them together either. To me, it seems like Takemoto is a good friend to her, one of the first people that she can really be close with. BUt as we see in the monologues, Hagu really thinks in a whole different world. Something like her friendship with Takemoto couldn't stop her from thoughts of suicide but Morita's arrival could. Because it echoes back to what Takemoto said in season 1, that the two of them are in their own world that he could not enter. Only someone who can truly understand Hagu's passion for her art could be able to persuade her out of it.

So anyways, I really don't know where I stand on this anymore.....

I had similar feelings, however for all of his good qualities I don't like Morita very much. I don't like perfection, which is what he is. I feel like his brother, even though I've never gone through that situation I understand it as if I had. I don't know, maybe Morita is 'better,' but he pisses me off.

[Theowne]

Hmm, but I don't think Morita is perfect at all. Especially with the recent storyline about his brother. He was unable to help his brother when he needed it, in the way that he required at that time. Instead he couldn't do anything but let him keep moving "away from the light" which led to his current state. In fact that might be what motivated him so much in this episode (10), feeling that he had to make up for letting one person fall into darkness (Kaoru). Anyways, he's talented yeah, but I don't think he represents "perfection", at least not in the way that I consider. I've always seen him as the type of person who bottles up all his problems inside and never lets people know that they're there. So he appears carefree and maybe "perfect" on the outside.

[ChainLegacy]

I see where you are coming from, and I acknowledge that his character is not literally 'perfect.' Yeah, he bottles his problems up, I've got that vibe from him since early on in season one as well. For me, however, even though he has his own struggles, it seems like he can do no wrong. That is my problem with his character. He doesn't make any 'mistakes,' so to speak. I'm not fond of him because of this.

[Srin Tuar]

ep 1１

Spoiler:

Wow, I have to take back all the bad things about Shuuji. He seemed like a loser because of the way things
were between him, Harada and Rika. But it turns out he always felt love from Hagumi, the whole time. What
a sneaky sneaky character, playing the loser like that all the time and acting depressed.
I thought he was hopeless, clinging to Hagu even though she didnt think of him as anything but family. Hrm, all her fawning over Morita and the lack of clues certainly reinforced that.

It turns out in the end that Hagu had liked Shuuji from the time she was a little girl. This was all a big no-contest,
since she has clearly been in love with Shuuji since before this series started. Takemoto, and Morita especially,
were simply teased by Hagumi.

There is a 12 year age difference between Hagu and Shuuji, plus she does look young for her age.
It may seem like a big deal 18 vs 30, but when shes 32 and hes 44 it wont seem like so much.


The ending scene where morita and Shuuji were yelling at each other was very well done.
I loved Shuuji's "が、金は返すが、ハグは返さん！" and his admission was awesome too.
Finally he's shown his tail.


*edit: Behold the power of Osananajimi.

*edit: i wonder if they will show them kissing or not...

*edit: meant ep 11, oops

[igalsfy]

my day ends on a hahuXmorita and it's so sad. i've always been for takemoto because i like him so much. now i just hope she ends up with neither of them. takemoto has to find someone else and i'm sure he can get plenty. FORGET YOUR GODAMN FIRST LOVE!

[Theowne]

Did you mean ep 11 spoiler, Srin Tuar?

see where you are coming from, and I acknowledge that his character is not literally 'perfect.' Yeah, he bottles his problems up, I've got that vibe from him since early on in season one as well. For me, however, even though he has his own struggles, it seems like he can do no wrong. That is my problem with his character. He doesn't make any 'mistakes,' so to speak. I'm not fond of him because of this.

Hmm, I guess I can also see your opinion too. I guess it does appear at certain times like everything Morita does is praiseworthy. I think he has made a few mistakes throughout the series, especially regarding his brother, but also how he chose to approach Hagu, etc

But opinions make the world go round

Argh, but Takemoto's such a nice guy!

[Lilith]

Ack, yeah Theowne. I also think Srin Tuar meant Ep 11 spoiler.

Ep 10
It was quite light and funny in the beginning, but then...

To save everyone from my long babble I'll just say that this episode was an "emotional-roller-coaster" for me. I was so happy that Morita came and my dream came true: He finally had a normal conversation with Hagu, hahaha!

Shuuji hugging Hagu on the bench was the cutest, sweetest and warmest thing ever. When we discovered that he intended to leave everything for Hagu, I felt how grand his love is for her. It's not because she's family, it's real love! Yes, I'm like Takemoto, wondering WHY didn't he confess?!

As much as I was happy, I became sad. Shuuji has got to be the one who got mostly hurt. Followed by Takemoto. Looks like what we "fore-shadowed" in the beginning of the series from the ending scene is correct: Shuuji and Takemoto will be the ones who are left alone (and maybe also Kaoru? I hope he's alright...).

[tragicsmile]

Originally Posted by Lilith

When we discovered that he intended to leave everything for Hagu, I felt how grand his love is for her. It's not because she's family, it's real love! Yes, I'm like Takemoto, wondering WHY didn't he confess?!

I know of parents who are willing to leave everything behind for their children; why not Shuuji?

I'm somewhat confused by your statement; does that imply that there is no "real" love between families? Are you implying that Shuuji's affections for Hagu are romantic? And if so, are you also implying that romantic love is the only "true" sort of love? Why would one need to confess love for someone you would consider your sibling, your cousin, your child?

If romantic love is what we should be expecting, Honey & Clover will turn out to be a series that had me captivated but left such a sour taste in my mouth.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted by tragicsmile

I know of parents who are willing to leave everything behind for their children; why not Shuuji?

Because Shuuji is not the parent, but a relative. It surprised me since Hagu's own father only stayed for a night, but maybe he has excuses. This thought combined with the scene on the bench earlier made my mind burst: Shuuji is in love with Hagumi!

Originally Posted by tragicsmile

I'm somewhat confused by your statement;?

Please excuse me, it seems I've used the wrong expression. I just wanted to say that IMO Shuuji's love different than family's love.

Originally Posted by tragicsmile

does that imply that there is no "real" love between families?

Of course not.

Originally Posted by tragicsmile

Are you implying that Shuuji's affections for Hagu are romantic?

Yes. After this episode I strongly believe that Shuu-chan has romantic feelings for Hagu.

Originally Posted by tragicsmile

And if so, are you also implying that romantic love is the only "true" sort of love?

Definitely not!

Originally Posted by tragicsmile

Why would one need to confess love for someone you would consider your sibling, your cousin, your child?

You're right, it doesn't need confession because it's taken for granted.

However, like I said above, I got the impression that Shuu-chan doesn't consider Hagu as his sibling, cousin or child, which's why I wondered why he didn't confess.

Originally Posted by tragicsmile

If romantic love is what we should be expecting, Honey & Clover will turn out to be a series that had me captivated but left such a sour taste in my mouth.

Who knows? I could be taking all of this the wrong way. We will know for sure the next episode since it seems it'll be Shuuji-centered.

[yjs]

Interesting observations on Shuuji possibly having romantic thoughts about Hagu. I'd like to think he's the worst one off of the lot if that is true...

[kauldron26]

hey guys, wut website or org gives out awards or recognition for anime of the year??? As much as i love this show, it has some really tough competition especially NHK and Utawarerumono. As far as im concerned school rumble season 2 sucked ass, and Melancholy of Haruhi was more overrated than fake tits. NHK, utawarerumono and H&C are yet to have a single weak episode... and thats just outstanding. And didnt monster end this year, because if that is within the competion for best anime overall, it will simply destroy all the other and get the top spot. Ad lets not forget the phenomenal Ergo Proxy and magnificent Noein.

Nominees for the Best anime of 2006 are....

Honey and Clover II (ur bound to cry atleast 4 times within the 13 episodes.. raw emotion)
Utawarerumono (wow... just wow... effing incredible)
Welcome to the NHK (came from nowhere and blew everyone away with each ep better than the last)
Noein ( The great nominee that not many people saw or appreciated so not likely to win, but still recognized)
Monster (most likely to win if nominated, and the masterpiece story is unrivalled in every sense of the word)
Ergo Proxy (originality, concept, art and music are just awe-inspiring)
Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya ( simply because of hype ....ugh)
BlacK Lagoon ( arguably the greatest action anime with a dose of social commentary)

[Grifis]

Originally Posted by Lilith

Because Shuuji is not the parent, but a relative. It surprised me since Hagu's own father only stayed for a night, but maybe he has excuses. This thought combined with the scene on the bench earlier made my mind burst: Shuuji is in love with Hagumi!

Not everything is about romantic love. Shuuji took care of her for so long of course it's only natural that the obligated paternal responsibility becomes genuine paternal love. Hagu is very attached to him as well as being so affectionate toward him how could he not love her back. The bench scene re-enforces how Shuuji feels toward Hagu (as a family member with unconditional love.) I would rather not go into the perverted thought of interpreting how Shuuji could fall in love (romantically) with this girl that he took care of from the time when she was still wetting her bed. There's something fundamentally wrong about that from this POV. The idea is just too 'hipped' for me (as well as the impression I get from H & C).

[Lilith]

Originally Posted by Grifis

Not everything is about romantic love. Shuuji took care of her for so long of course it's only natural that the obligated paternal responsibility becomes genuine paternal love. Hagu is very attached to him as well as being so affectionate toward him how could he not love her back. The bench scene re-enforces how Shuuji feels toward Hagu (as a family member with unconditional love.)

What you said could be true. The whole time I was convinced of the same as you said. Until Takemoto asked Shuuji "Why didn't you confess? Why didn't you tell her "choose me"?". At that moment, I begun to think:

If Shuuji's love was that of a family member, he would've answered Takemoto in a different way. Takemoto wouldn't even ask Shuuji these question.

Originally Posted by Grifis

I would rather not go into the perverted thought of interpreting how Shuuji could fall in love (romantically) with this girl that he took care of from the time when she was still wetting her bed. There's something fundamentally wrong about that from this POV. The idea is just too 'hipped' for me (as well as the impression I get from H & C).

Hahaha, perhaps reading too much Shota and Yaoi made my mind think like that.

[musouka]

Originally Posted by Grifis

I would rather not go into the perverted thought of interpreting how Shuuji could fall in love (romantically) with this girl that he took care of from the time when she was still wetting her bed.

So if you see someone when they are a child you can never ever see them as an adult?

I'm no fan of Shuuji/Hagu, but one of my all time favorite manga couples had a teenager that knew his love interest as a four year old, and then lost contact with them for well over a decade. They re-met when his LO was legal, and things progressed from there. Are you saying that this character is a pedophile just because, if he thinks about it, he can remember his LO as a child, even though his LO is NOT a child when romance enters the picture?

Relationships can grow and change and become something else. They are not set in stone. If Shuuji does have romantic attraction to Hagu, that does not mean he was romantically attracted to her when she was a little girl that wet the bed.

[Grifis]

Originally Posted by musouka

So if you see someone when they are a child you can never ever see them as an adult?

I'm no fan of Shuuji/Hagu, but one of my all time favorite manga couples had a teenager that knew his love interest as a four year old, and then lost contact with them for well over a decade. They re-met when his LO was legal, and things progressed from there. Are you saying that this character is a pedophile just because, if he thinks about it, he can remember his LO as a child, even though his LO is NOT a child when romance enters the picture?

Relationships can grow and change and become something else. They are not set in stone. If Shuuji does have romantic attraction to Hagu, that does not mean he was romantically attracted to her when she was a little girl that wet the bed.

But Shuuji was being her guardian, cared for her as if he was her foster parent. He didn't just saw her when she was a child (like in the Thorn Birds.) But that was the Thorn Birds and it was kind of dramatic and soapy. I didn't get the impression that Shuuji saw Hagu as a woman nor did I get the impression that H & C was going down the path with such 'hipped' and liberal ideas. The overall series didn't give me that vibe. Shuuji is a relative of hers. Shuuji was taking care of her since she was very young (off and on or something like that I can't remember very well). Now suddenly this fatherly figure is becoming romantic possibility? The closest story to this is Bastard!. (So who took care of you for all these years so you could grow this beautiful? Over 300 years we were father and daughter, the next 100 years we were lovers. Ok I might have gotten the years wrong but that's kind of the idea. But Dark Schneider and Arshes Nei look pretty good together and it was a fantasy so that didn't bother me.) I guess I haven't watched that many anime as I thought.

Really please give me clues as to how is Shuuji's feelings for Hagu romantic. I like to know.

[brightredglow]

Originally Posted by Grifis

Really please give me clues as to how is Shuuji's feelings for Hagu romantic. I like to know.

The clues from Shuu's side are pretty vague, but the most obvious clue is Takemoto advising Shuu to tell Hagu how he feels. That Takemoto uses his own experience (and Shuu's lack of clarification) infers that Shuu is tacitly agreeing that he has deeper feelings for Hagu than that of a "family guardian." What Takemoto doesn't understand is that a "confession" poses a huge risk for Shuu. If Shuu says nothing, he can continue on his "guardian-protector" role and no one gets hurt except for maybe himself. If he says something and Hagu doesn't welcome the admission, his and Hagu's relationship changes forever.

It is pretty ingenious how Umino wrote the relationship of Shuu and Hagu. There is a lot of subtext, but just enough distraction that you can ignore the hints comfortably or interpret them in your own way.

The interesting thing of their relationship though is that Hagu is the one who is in the most control. Because of that, I don't find the possibility of Shuu/Hagu to be inappropriate or wrong. In the end, her choice is what it will be and he'll abide by it.

Personally, I don't think it is the age gap (which, at 12 years, isn't too bad) or the family tie (they are 2nd cousins so technically they are free to become involved) that turns people off to the possibility of this pairing, but rather that Hagu looks so very young even for 22. Visually, it is a bit jarring to even imagine them together.

[Lyannea]

Just a little note about Hagu/Shuuji.

If I remember well, when Hagu says she was not confortable with Morita, Shuuji says that he will go with her and just those words seem to calm her down. She is confortable with him.

Shuuji showed some signs of love. When Takemoto slept with Hagu (well, next to her), he kinda didn't like it and later calmed down. There's hints he's overprotective (and possibly jealous) during all anime. It kinda reminds me the situation in Host Club where Tamaki sees Haruhi as his daughter (and probably realise later it's cause he loves her, not too sure though since i didnt see any episode for a while)... The only difference is that Shuuji acted as someone Hagu could count on for a longer time. (how long? I have no idea)

Of course, there is no real proof, but to me it was kinda obvious Hagu and Shuuji had an unusual relationship. I mean, at one point a girl detach herself of her father naturally and since somes think that Shuuji represents a fatherly figure, she should be detaching herself of him gradually. It did not happen yet and she's something like 22... It kinda gives hint or that her attachment is stronger or that she is really immature and still needs a parental figure.

[tragicsmile]

Originally Posted by brightredglow

If Shuu says nothing, he can continue on his "guardian-protector" role and no one gets hurt except for maybe himself. If he says something and Hagu doesn't welcome the admission, his and Hagu's relationship changes forever.

And therein lies the problem; if you had someone who acted as your guardian and trusted them, and they just came and said that they loved you romantically, wouldn't that seem... wrong?

About the subtext, I didn't really see anything in the series that hinted at there possibly being something more between Shuuji and Hagu; maybe the confrontation between Shuuji and Morita in the first series, but I don't really recall that scene perfectly.

[Theowne]

When Takemoto slept with Hagu (well, next to her), he kinda didn't like it and later calmed down

But that's a normal reaction by any guardian/parental figure. And as I recall that scene was also portrayed humorously. In fact the things that you mentioned can all be attributed to the fact that he is a guardian to Hagu. Of course she feels more comfortable around him.

I'm not sure what I think about the idea of Shuuji liking Hagu romantically. One thing I want to say is that I don't want to make the statement "If Shuuji likes Hagu in that way, then this series is going to end badly", because let's face it, the H&C team is excellent and Umino Chika is an amazing storyteller. I don't think they/she could/would screw up a story like this out of nowhere. I think if anything happens, it will be with proper explanation that won't make us go "this just doesn't seem right".

But even as I say that I am feeling a little hesitation towards this idea. I have to agree with tragicsmile; Shuuji, to me, was always a father figure who loved Hagu possibly more then anyone else but always in a platonic way. I thought that she (Hagu) was the thing that filled the void in his life after Harada's death. I thought she was what he devoted himself to because of that, but I never would expect that he would like her romantically.

Enough rambling though.......by the next episode I'm sure my opinions will once again take a complete 180.....

[Sorrow-K]

Originally Posted by physics223

I will be REALLY surprised, like Sorrow-K, if this doesn't end up as best anime of 2006 in my books. I really do. I mean ... even if KyoAni animated Haruhi Suzumiya and it has a large fandom, substance-wise, it pales in comparison to this show, IMO.

*hides from the sight of Haruhiists*

I'd say, so far, Haruhi has been the third best anime of this year that I've seen, with H&CII and Mushishi being the two titles I'd consider ahead of it. NHK I wouldn't consider in the same tier as these three titles, though, and I've actually been a tad disappointed with it in the last two or so eps.

Ep 10.

I was very disappointed with the first half of this ep, since it kept doing the one thing I disapproved of the first series: interrupting dramatic moments with comedy. It's a mood killer, and given that H&C is far better at drama than it is at comedy, it just shouldn't be doing it at all, IMO. However, it totally redeemed itself with a second half that I can only describe with "brilliant". I'm optimistic that we still haven't seen the best of this series, and signs are that it's going to end on an absolutely breath-taking note.