2007-05-16, 14:48 | Link #1302 |
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It's curious that the English speaking population likes IchiHime more than usual. Is there something in the western upbringing that promotes this? Any ideas?
After reading some extremely intelligent posts on other forums, it seems the western society is all for pro-action, and winning love instead of just letting it go. That may be why the western society approves of what Orihime does, which can be considered a violation by eastern cultures. Also, Orihime herself, physically, resembles a more typical caucasian ideal of beauty. Rukia is anything but. Perhaps that also (subconsciously) played a role? Westerners just aren't accustomed to Rukia's type of beauty, so naturally, they find Orihime more visually appealing. The same can be said of Ichigo, with his neon hair. He is far more typically 'masculine' than say... Orihime's alternatives; Ishida and maybe Ulquiorra, etc. Or Chizuru... And matching Ichigo with Orihime fits more with the western visual ideal for a couple? I don't know. It would be interesting to see if IchiHime fans are proportionally more caucasian. It seems there's also a trend that Orihime lovers are either fans of shoujo (which I guess makes them more tolerant towards the girly type of characters) or boys. Many shounen fans can't appreciate her presence as the soft, shoujo character. Hm... |
2007-05-16, 15:44 | Link #1303 | ||
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That's some interesting points you bring up there. First of all: I like Orihime very much, and I'm what you can call the romantic type. I like mushy stuff, as long as it's good mushy stuff. Quote:
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2007-05-16, 16:19 | Link #1304 | |
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I think they've done a good job developing both characters; although, through the 50 or so episodes, I thought Orihime was a lesbian...which I thought was pretty bold...I was kind of disappointed when they dropped that relationship (aside from a brief, depressed, flash in ep 125). Anyway...my fave match is Inu Yasha and Kagome, but this Ichigo and Rukia could quickly take it's place...Inu Yasha is taking way too long to get a clue...Ichigo seems to be just as clueless...that's just my 2 cents... |
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2007-05-16, 16:57 | Link #1305 |
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There have been many points and accusations of Rukia and Orihime as separate characters and characters in comparison.
In my opinion, Rukia and Orihime are very two different extremes of the same string. Like opposite sides of a coin. Many things point that out, not just physical appearances. Their attitudes are quite the opposite as well. I don't need to explain that, haha. Orihime is very obvious with her feelings of affection [in regard to Ichigo anyway] where as Rukia [does she have any affections for Ichigo --I hope-- ] has shown to be subtle and hushed with her own - thus making it quite difficult to discern whether or not there is something there. Also, we have to take into account that Rukia is much older than Orihime. She is going to be wiser, more experience, more mature. A little bit later rather than earlier in the series, Rukia begins to sort of tug Orihime along, just a bit. They had this void between one another. Like Ichigo, Rukia never really established a full out friendship with Orihime, and such a lack of explination and being left out of the full loop, I believe, had Orihime feeling jealous. Among other reasons too, of course. A lack of understanding. relationship, all of that sort of unraveled once Orihime and Rukia finally connected. What I believe has people so drawn to Rukia's character is just how much she fits reality when it comes to actual people. There are quirks of her character that are melodramatic, but such idiosyncracies and sort of oxymoron [sort of - she's like a tomboy who openly wears dresses and loves bunnies -shrugs-] type of attributes just add to her affable flair. She has control and rationality in intense situations, but she occasionally loses her ground and cracks from time to time. She has had an innocent side of her portrayed and her past is deep and heavy, but she wallows in it only when the time is right - the guilt and passion is her own burden, and she carries it splendidly. All of this is very realistic and relatable. Orihime is a teenager. She's experiencing some of the roughest waters of her life - so it is expected for her to be rocky and unstable in many of her characteristics. It's no wonder she admires and is even jealous of Rukia. That's natural, just as Matsumoto said. Rukia is not afraid to be rough. She isn't frightened of hurting people's feelings if that's what it takes to set them in line. Most of the time, what she says is true, even if it hurts. Orihime has a sugar coating around her. She's sweet by nature and thus, she doesn't want to speak ill of anyone. They're two different extremes, so they're bound have two completely different sets of supports in all areas. Opinions, explinations, indications, you name it. They can't be compared on a level ground without unfair tweaks being made. :3 |
2007-05-16, 17:59 | Link #1307 | |
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Remember, this is a different culture and their actions are appropriate within that culture. Also, Rukia has to control herself to a greater degree than Orihime, she is, after all a member of a prominent family…her actions would bring great dishonor to her family…she has a lot of pressure on her not act on, or express her feelings. Orihime doesn’t have the family pressures, but she still has the cultural pressures. |
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2007-05-16, 18:29 | Link #1308 | |
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I understand where you're coming from though. I'm just attempting to view and observe them from different angles and catch points of similarity and points of discrepancy. Their characters are, quite obviously, not the same. So finding areas where you can relate the two is difficult at times without using outside sources like family or friends. |
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2007-05-16, 19:52 | Link #1309 | |
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I see your point about how finding it easier to identify with Orihime physically might come into play on some level but the impression I get from reading posts by IchiOri shippers is that her love for Ichigo is what touches them the most. Now, from what I gather, unrequited love is a fairly commonplace theme in many Asian cultures and can in some cases be viewed as a relatively positive emotion. Certainly, there isn’t any automatic assumption that the natural course of events is for it to be reciprocated at some point. In the West however, unrequited love isn’t really a very prominent theme, and when it does appear, it isn’t valorised in and for itself. Certainly in the modern English-speaking world, the assumption tends to be that if character A loves character B, and if there aren’t any obvious obstacles (such as B being married, or in a relationship, or dead), then by golly A deserves to get what they want! Love is supposed to conquer all, even indifference. Just ask Hollywood. And in Bleach, Ichigo is not unambiguously and uncontroversially ‘taken’. Even among those who support IchiRuki, there are those who see his falling in love with Rukia as a very probable future event, and those who see it as an already accomplished fact. The other point (which I’m actually less sure about) is that there are any number of Asian tales in which a young man gets involved with a supernaturally inclined woman. Whether he’s pinching her robe while she bathes or being seduced by foxes or some other shape-shifting creature, the question of the woman’s age doesn’t really come up, other than she’s obviously much older than he is. I can’t really think of a Western equivalent to this (La Belle Dame sans Merci maybe, but that’s hardly a positive example). The fact that Rukia is much older than Ichigo, for all it doesn’t appear to bother anyone within Bleach, seems to be pretty off-putting to some (Western) fans. Spoiler:
Spoiler for the main problem with not watching the anime is not knowing when something's a spoiler...:
Last edited by niffum; 2007-05-19 at 16:04. |
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2007-05-16, 20:45 | Link #1310 | |
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This show has a great deal of potential. They've established a good foundation to take it just about any direction and still have support of their growing fan base. My sincere hopes are that they go with Ichigo and Rukia, but the most likely reality is that they won't go with Ichigo and anyone... |
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2007-05-16, 20:59 | Link #1311 | ||
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Inoue tried to be someone she isn't, she doesn't even know where she belongs, who she is, nor does/did she accept her weaknesses and strengths. She may be able to tell some of the sufaces of moods and may be perceptive at times, but she lacks that independence and the strength to truly stand on her own two feet. However, this arc will give Inoue some experiences, as well as the entire group experience to get stronger so that they will be able to rely on each other. It doesn't matter what it means for Eastern or Westrn culture and what not, that "stereotype" is changing about women on both sides of the globe. Rukia represents the new and changing "stereotype", and Inoue represents the older and traditional "stereotype." There will always be people who will find one or the other more likeable than the other. Quote:
This is from my own experiences with both sides, however. |
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2007-05-16, 23:38 | Link #1312 | |
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@niffum
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Orihime was not invited, probably still wearing her shoes, makes a sweeping love confession and then holds his hand and tries to kiss him. Coming from an oriental society, I know this violated so much of the traditions of courtesy, proximity, humility and all that other stuff. If it was anyone other than Orihime, I might've hated them. I, personally, was never able to approve of what Orihime did. So for that chapter, I usually focus on the confession, which I found rather touching. On the other hand, the western society has plenty of fairy tales with kissing unconscious princesses, eloping, Romeo spying on Juliet's bedroom (and wishes he was her glove... ugh), sweeping the girl off her feet. This whole pro-action stuff has filled our televisions and literature. They are also more open to touching and physical intimacy, so the hand holding and the kiss is not such a big deal. I've even heard several IchiHime fans wishing they did kiss, or saying that she simply felt nervous. --> I see where they're coming from, but I dunno, call me a traditionalist or whatever: I found that fundamentally wrong/uncomfortable/disturbing. So I guess I was using my own experiences and making sweeping generalizations in a way. But it does bear thinking about. Your point about the supernatural being (the celestial princess, the fox, the girl from the moon, the bamboo princess, the mountain spirit, etc,) is extremely interesting! This might be a possible explanation for the lack of "ugh, she's 10x older" arguments in Japan. @Alea Misa, Of course, I understand that I was making extremely generalized and possibly discriminating statements. ><' But proportionally, a group of people is still vastly influenced by culture. If the culture finds tall, big-chested, sweet women attractive, then there will be a bigger portion of the population who shares this view. This doesn't mean they dislike other types, but really... how many famous oriental actresses/singers/models are out there? And those that do exist also has caucasian cheekbones -.-'... It's not hard to see what the western culture views as beautiful. Hm... so I guess I meant that it's a matter of proportion. There will be a greater proportion of people who view Orihime attractive in western societies. How people view Rukia is a completely different story that I should've addressed separately. Rukia's selling point is not usually her looks anyways, but her personality. There are so many fans who find her physically attractive as well, but if we ask them, most would say they were drawn by Rukia's character. @Lendra-chan, Rukia and Orihime are, at the cores, very similar. However, they give off completely different impressions and in their daily attitudes are almost 180. I find it interesting how Orihime wants to be more like Rukia, and Rukia thought Miyako was her ideal. I've always viewed Miyako with a "Orihime-like" character in some ways, although we've not seen her at all. |
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2007-05-17, 00:25 | Link #1313 | |
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I know I been reading alot of posts that say stuff like that.. which to me is the IchiHime fans trying cling to the ever so fading IchiHime pairing.. I was like what.. are they for reals?? now listen carefully IchiHime fans...
Spoiler for manga:
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Agreed.. Inoue has the I don't know who I am dilema... plus she likes the guy, which is Ichi her methods of reaching Ichigo just don't seem to work and the reason she is jealous of Rukia is because she states how happy Rukia makes Ichi... and how she couldn't do a thing for him in other words she compares herself with Rukia.. to that effect I would say she would try to Immitate Rukias' methods to reach Ichi.. which still fail on her behalf.. but hey the story is still moving we don't know what Kubo-sensei has up his sleeve *Plus Rukia Kicks Ass* ICHIRUKI ALL THE WAY |
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2007-05-17, 00:46 | Link #1314 | |
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Orihime's character is special in her own way. Some people mentioned about the similarities in their hairstyle but I disagree with that too. |
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2007-05-17, 05:41 | Link #1315 | |
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Spoiler for just in case:
And then there’s the fact that she hasn’t given any indication that she wants to replace Rukia – sure, she wants to have as deep a bond with Ichigo as Rukia has, but that doesn’t mean that she has to oust a rival, Ichigo is perfectly capable of caring deeply for more than one person. To be honest, I don’t think she really knows herself what she wants. To be his girlfriend is the obvious answer, but she understands that the situation would be difficult because Rukia would always be pivotal to his existence, and because she, Orihime, wouldn’t want either Ichigo or Rukia to lose the other since they’re so important to each other, yet at the same time, where would a third person be able to fit… My point is that the whole set-up is so complicated for someone in Orihime’s position that she just doesn’t really know what to want or how to fit into the picture – this is probably something she’s going to have to work out for herself before she can move on in any direction whatsoever with her feelings. And that’s one of the reasons I don’t see her as trying all that actively to change her relationship with Ichigo. Yes, she has made some efforts get closer to him, but she’s never really gone all the way with them. Although it’s obvious that she wants their relationship to change, she can’t quite imagine what it could become and is probably scared to push to hard for change in case things go wrong. This is why I see her as essentially passive: she’s confused, scared to go all the way in revealing her feelings, and thus currently incapable of really changing the status quo. And while she hesitates, Ichigo gets ever closer to Rukia and Orihime’s situation just gets worse. About stereotypes, I was only using the word to show that Orihime was more one thing (passive) than another (proactive). For what its worth though, I can’t think of a single character in Bleach that entirely conforms to any stereotype. Nor do I think that Rukia and Orihime represent ‘new’ and ‘old’ visions of womanhood as again, Asia has plenty of old tales of active, emotionally strong and physically brave women. Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Oh the wonders of forums – you end up posting whole essays about a character you don’t really care about. Last edited by niffum; 2007-05-19 at 16:03. |
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2007-05-17, 06:07 | Link #1316 |
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Spoiler:
270 did far less to convince me of the Ichigo Rukia. It seemed more to me at the time. This was the first instance that their was confirmation that one of ichigo's nakama may have died. Even when others reatsu disappeared I don't think Ichigo actually thought they were dead. His reaction seems like it could be more "its not true, it can't be true, what if its true, I have to find out". I think he'd react the same way for Chad or Ishida. I think 248 and 247 have stronger posts that support the Ichigo & Rukia pairing. Ichigo's behaviour just before the gates (not want to split up), and the Rukia's nakama speech to ichigo in 247. Both of these show stronger indicators of each sides emotions then 270 IMO. It also what convinced me Inoue and Ichigo are very very unlikely. |
2007-05-17, 07:46 | Link #1318 | |
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I know how Orihime and Rukia are actually a lot alike in ways ~ That's why I like both of them, though Ruki is quite dominant, being my favorite character. I just thought I'd clarify their outward differences rather than saying 'they are not similar' and instead saying 'they are different this way'. :> |
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2007-05-17, 14:22 | Link #1319 | |
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If it's because of their physical appearance, well, Miyako and Orihime look nothing alike. Orihime, for one thing, has a much more prominent bust. And Miyako's hair is dark while hers is light. I think Miyako looks like an older Rukia with long hair; try putting pictures of them side by side and compare them to see what I mean. Also, this is a bit random, but the whole Orihime putting up her hair thing = Miyako because omg! her hair is put up, too! is probably one of the worst arguments I've ever come across (and I've actually come across people who argue that!). On the other hand, if it's because of personality... well, Rukia describes Miyako as being kind, gentle, graceful, etc. But that can apply to any number of women in Bleach, Rukia included. Just because Orihime is commonly considered to be the stereotypical "gentle" female of Bleach doesn't mean that the other girls can't also be gentle. I'd also like to point out that Miyako was the 3rd seat in her division... which gives us a bit of insight on her combat abilities. To be ranked that high, it only follows that she was also a strong fighter, yet all the while managing to remain kind, gentle, and graceful, as noted by Rukia. Which is, again, another parallel I see between the two, and definitely not between Orihime and Miyako. |
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2007-05-17, 15:45 | Link #1320 | |
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I think it's safe to say, rule out all physical appearances that are vaguely similar. Hair color and style really doesn't matter - If that was the case, Hisagi's hair style and Ichigo's hair style would bring questions like these - but I've only met a few who have openly proclaimed that they noticed and questioned that. Anything as simple as that shouldn't matter when comparing characteristic resemblances. That was my point. The only two characters who I actually like to compare in such a way is Kaien and Ichigo; because their similarities have been introduced by actual characters and taken into consideration more than once. Rukia is graceful, beautiful and gentle. But those sides of her are not overtly dominant, and not everyone sees her as such. Miyako was known for such qualities which Orihime is as well. It's their dominant characteristics. Of course there are going to be similarities that lean more to Rukia from time to time, and the same with Orihime. No two characters are exactly alike, thus opening the option for these discussions. It was simply an observation and quirky opinion, in truth. Nothing to really sit on. |
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