(L) 5-Toubun no Hanayome

[DragoonKain3]

@MK-95
Whoah buddy, let's not strawman here. You said this:

"Itsuki must summon the power of asspulls to bullshit her way to the ending if she's Negi's intended choice"

An "asspull" as you mention it is, according to TV tropes is:

"An Ass Pull is a moment when the writers pull something out of thin air in a less-than-graceful narrative development, violating the Law of Conservation of Detail by dropping a plot-critical detail in the middle, or near the end of their narrative without Foreshadowing or dropping a Chekhov's Gun earlier on." Emphasis mine.

An 'ass pull' is basically a 'sudden' development that has not been properly hinted at, either through foreshadowing or dropping a "Chekov's Gun".

Negi can get away with Ichika turning 'yandere' (or whatever you call it) because she has been harped on by her sisters a good number of times before to 'not hold back', or something to that effect. Negi has been hinting at it for a very long time already, and in one chapter, Ichika turns from loving onee-san to backyard bully. Her chances of winning has no relevance - just the fact that such a development has been properly foreshadowed for a long time is, since it proves Negi is not a hack of a writer.

And if Negi is not a hack of a writer, he can do it again. Or rather, he may have been doing it all this time in regards to Itsuki. In the same vein, Negi can get away with Itsuki having the 'sudden reveal' of being the Kyoto Girl, because he has been hinting at it SINCE CHAPTER ONE. And considering that Kyoto Girl is basically the only girl Fuu has been said in-universe to love (Nino herself said it in chapter 43), and Itsuki is the prime suspect, don't you think it's misinformed to be labelling Itsuki winning as an 'asspull'?

Seriously, I've heard it tons of times in all corners of the internet. People saying "but what about the development of Miku" or as you say it, "the Ninowank of the past 20 chapters." But these same people don't realize (either through ignorance or shipping glasses) that Negi has been setting up Itsuki as Kyoto Girl SINCE THE MANGA HAS STARTED, longer than any other quint. If Itsuki winning is an asspull, and Itsuki's romantic development has been hinted at since the very beginning, then anyone else winning is ALSO an asspull.


Do I think it's a shoe-in Itsuki is gonna win? HELL NO! While I'm confident that Negi's initial plan was to have Itsuki win, such things like Nino favouritism in his twitter (Nino is the only one who got a new year stand-alone illustration for example) and the Nino prevalence in the anime ED (cake is a rabbit, room temp water is Nino's favourite drink, nail polish, etc.) makes me wonder if he'll actually go through with it.

[Xero8420]

Honestly, as I went through both anime & manga, I'm all for Nino ending this time. Because from the way I see it, it appears that the sheer efforts & patience Fuutarou has invested on Nino means a lot for this story, it began from the early stage of the story up to this point as of now & it's been paid off well. I would love to see this momentum keep on going like a train, smoothly. Just pray that Negi eventually chose to go full throttle with it, if he wish to challenge the rom-com cliches & status quo alike.

I think I will break it down later on when I compiled all my thoughts about Nino & how she has been in a large portion of the story & maybe up to the point that her earning her happy ending could be convincingly sound, with the benefit of hindsight. Otherwise, whatever Nino has gone through would end up in a betrayal.

I'll be fine with Yotsuba or Itsuki ending, as long as Negi could do it right without feeling like a poorly-written asspull when these two characters have been suspected to be shrouded with mystery. But I'll be really happy if Nino wins in the end, she truly deserves it.

As for Ichika... Oh boy, she has just unleashed the latent yandere in her. Who knows? Maybe she could go out her way to drug Fuu-kun, lock him in her room & proceed to reverse rape him...

I guess Miku, Nino & Yotsuba rubbed her the wrong way...

[Sixth]

Originally Posted by wuhugm

^Yandere is very stable

It is kinda hilarious that Itsuki is the most stable among her siblings at this moment.

Maybe because she didn't have much screentime, so we can't see more about her "darker" side like other sisters at this moment.

[Xero8420]

But anyway, this recent chapter pretty much ruled out the possibility their Ichika was the bell kisser. Not only that she was yet to fully recover from her heel injury, but her revealed as a two-faced backyard bully as she was gave away a big red flag.

And so, even if anyone wants Ichika to win, not a chance. No-go for a Nice Boat ending. The story wouldn't end well & Fuu's stable future could be doubtful.

But in any case, expect drama stirring in the coming chapters.

[wuhugm]

^People said that as well when Nino drugged Fuutarou
Now they all are her worshippers

[Lex79]

This is a far worse situation than Nino's, though.

[Chosen_Hero]

^No, no it isn't. Drugging someone =/= to desperately telling a lie. One of those is an actual crime with legal repercussions, the other is just a moral crime that at best will mess up her relationship with Miku and/or Fuutarou.

[Lex79]

I mean from a story perspective. We all knew that Nino's was going to defrost and that made easier to forgive her past behaviour. Ichika instead is the kind onee chan who suddenly betrayed everyone's trust. It's hard to recover from such a situation.

[Xero8420]

Drugged by someone whom you've just met vs drugged by someone whom you've already known or close to you

On the former, when you have the guts to know her better that she isn't a bad person at all, her bad misdeeds would be forgiven. But on the latter, drugged by someone you've been close, you feel betrayed. See the differences.

Sorry, wuhugm. I don't see how Nino's petty misdeed justify one's contempt on her, unless one takes that drugging thing too personal. Seriously, people should learn when to forgive & let it go, rather than wasting time & life to damn that person to the very soul of that person

[MK-95-]

Here we go again... Idek why you bother quoting me anymore. We'll never see eye-to-eye on anything when it comes to Go-Toubun, but oh well, I'll play along anyway.

Originally Posted by DragoonKain3

Whoah buddy, let's not strawman here. You said this:

"Itsuki must summon the power of asspulls to bullshit her way to the ending if she's Negi's intended choice"

An "asspull" as you mention it is, according to TV tropes is:

"An Ass Pull is a moment when the writers pull something out of thin air in a less-than-graceful narrative development, violating the Law of Conservation of Detail by dropping a plot-critical detail in the middle, or near the end of their narrative without Foreshadowing or dropping a Chekhov's Gun earlier on." Emphasis mine.

An 'ass pull' is basically a 'sudden' development that has not been properly hinted at, either through foreshadowing or dropping a "Chekov's Gun".

Alright, no use in contesting this point. I misused 'asspull' here, I'll give you that.

However, that doesn't change the fact that I still have a big problem with this potential development. It may not be an asspull, but it still is shit writing. As a matter of fact, I'd rather it be an asspull than something intentional because if this was intentional, then boy does Negi suck at planning and executing his developments. At least if it were an asspull we'd get mad about it, but then come up with excuses like "he was probably forced to do this or that due to time constraints, executive meddling and whatnot" etc...

So in summary, a poorly planned development is objectively worse than an asspull because it highlights the author's own flaws whereas with an asspull, there's always the possibility that it was caused by external factors, etc... (granted, authors who write themselves into a corner end up resorting to asspulls to get themselves out, but I won't get too specific about that since I don't want my post to be an essay, so we'll keep it short and just keep those general concepts I described)

Negi can get away with Ichika turning 'yandere' (or whatever you call it) because she has been harped on by her sisters a good number of times before to 'not hold back', or something to that effect. Negi has been hinting at it for a very long time already, and in one chapter, Ichika turns from loving onee-san to backyard bully. Her chances of winning has no relevance - just the fact that such a development has been properly foreshadowed for a long time is, since it proves Negi is not a hack of a writer.

And if Negi is not a hack of a writer, he can do it again. Or rather, he may have been doing it all this time in regards to Itsuki. In the same vein, Negi can get away with Itsuki having the 'sudden reveal' of being the Kyoto Girl, because he has been hinting at it SINCE CHAPTER ONE. And considering that Kyoto Girl is basically the only girl Fuu has been said in-universe to love (Nino herself said it in chapter 43), and Itsuki is the prime suspect, don't you think it's misinformed to be labelling Itsuki winning as an 'asspull'?

Seriously, I've heard it tons of times in all corners of the internet. People saying "but what about the development of Miku" or as you say it, "the Ninowank of the past 20 chapters." But these same people don't realize (either through ignorance or shipping glasses) that Negi has been setting up Itsuki as Kyoto Girl SINCE THE MANGA HAS STARTED, longer than any other quint. If Itsuki winning is an asspull, and Itsuki's romantic development has been hinted at since the very beginning, then anyone else winning is ALSO an asspull.

While you're not wrong about this being foreshadowed, you're severely underestimating the difficulty of managing increases/decreases to character popularity due to said foreshadowed development.

It'll always be easier to write developments that negatively impact a character's popularity. It is possible to completely destroy a character's reputation in a single chapter. On the flip side, positively improving a character's reputation is the opposite because it's near impossible for people to warm up to and accept a character after just a single chapter that painted them in a positive light. A single chapter can only be used to improve character popularity in two ways:

1. There's a period of development where the character is gradually built up until readers start to become receptive of her. After figuring out the timing for finalizing this development, the author then uses that single chapter to achieve a big payoff where readers are finally won over. (Kinda like how we got all that Nino wank and the double-confession was used to top it off as I'm sure that's where most readers had finally accepted her)

2. A single chapter is used to set in motion a development that signifies the character's growth into someone that would be well-liked and popular at the end of said development. In this case, that single chapter is used as an indicator of sorts or a turning point for the aforementioned character. (Think of Rem's arc in Re:Zero where she initially killed Subaru, but by the end of the arc, everyone already knew she was best girl. lol)

What you're doing is taking a scenario where a character got a one-chapter development which impacted her negatively and positively applying it to another character while relying on the excuse that "as long as it was foreshadowed however long ago, this is acceptable".

Once you've grasped what I explained above, then you'd realize that Ichika's scenario cannot directly translate over to Itsuki because it's achieving two different outcomes. A single chapter was used to almost completely destroy Ichika's reputation, not exponentially improve it.

A single chapter cannot massively improve Itsuki's popularity or make people instantly accept her and conveniently go along with it just because it was foreshadowed that she's KG, Rena or whatever else. That way of looking at it is naive. Even if the foreshadowing is there, if there isn't any buildup that would signify a huge payoff if or when she's revealed to be KG/Rena, then when the reveal does take place, it'll feel pointless, out of place or random. Keep in mind that the longer Negi takes to do so, the more it hurts Itsuki's chances in this shipping war. Need I remind you that we're past the halfway point of this story?

But these same people don't realize (either through ignorance or shipping glasses)

You're seriously the last person I want to hear talk about shipping goggles. Your Itsuki bias is so extreme that you base all of these farfetched theories around her to satisfy your headcanon and always speak as though you're absolutely convinced that she's the bride.

I'm having flashbacks of your "master of disguise Itsuki theory"...

Don't even get me started on your side-by-side picture comparisons that you use for "proving" or "trying to prove" that Itsuki is KG or Rena. They are identical quintuplets my guy, aside from their hairstyles and eyes (which are an aesthetic change), they all look exactly the same. My point? Those comparison pics are pointless.

Why'd I say aesthetic change? Because when they're in disguise, the shape of their eyes magically changes to that of the sister they're impersonating. That alone should tell you that comparisons mean squat.

Negi can get away with Itsuki having the 'sudden reveal' of being the Kyoto Girl, because he has been hinting at it SINCE CHAPTER ONE.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, did KG appear in chapter 1? I seem to recall that she didn't. How could a character that appears later have any direct correlation to a chapter where her existence wasn't even known or revealed yet? Why Itsuki specifically? Why can't we apply that same logic to any of the other four? Is it because she has the 'first girl' card that she's automatically KG/Rena?

Y'know what? I've got an out there theory myself that I want to share: I say papa Nakano is KG because he definitely seems to know something about Fuu that we don't. After all, it's been foreshadowed since forever that he's hiding something, so the chances of him being KG seems very likely to me.

Itsuki's romantic development has been hinted at since the very beginning

Wait. What romantic development? Itsuki showed romantic interest in Fuu? Dude, it's really hard to take you seriously when you say stuff like that. The closest thing we had that's even remotely close to romantic is the few days she stayed over at Fuu's house. We can throw in the school trip/legend that binds while we're at it, but I think most will agree that Ichika benefited the most from that arc, romantically speaking.

Hell, Yotsuba has more romantic moments with Fuu than Itsuki and everyone still considers her ship as sunk.

[Calca]

This is one of the few stories where harem ending is warranted.

[Tenzen12]

No it isn't. This is one of stories where harem ending would completely destroy it.

[Xero8420]

Originally Posted by Calca

This is one of the few stories where harem ending is warranted.

Sadly, it's not warranted. Because the established end point of that one of the quints will be Fuu-kun's bride is inevitable, regardless.

Though there may be extras for the other 4 sisters' consolation endings, but one of them will be the canonically chosen one.

[DragoonKain3]

Originally Posted by MK-95-

Alright, no use in contesting this point. I misused 'asspull' here, I'll give you that.

However, that doesn't change the fact that I still have a big problem with this potential development. It may not be an asspull, but it still is shit writing. As a matter of fact, I'd rather it be an asspull than something intentional because if this was intentional, then boy does Negi suck at planning and executing his developments.

Emphasis mine.

That's just your opinion. The very fact that every major reveal has been properly foreshadowed points to Negi actually being a good writer. Let me just list just some things non-shipping he did rather well:

-chapter 1 Raiha mentions their dad got him the job, which in turn foreshadows Isanari having personal relations with Maruo
-Itsuki disguising as Ichika was foreshadowed from her using Uesugi-kun, and Miku disguising as Itsuki was
-Nino being good at cooking and her wanting to open up her own restaurant foreshadowed her working with Fuu at the shop
-Ichika turning Yandere in the latest chapter has been hinted at multiple chapters before

Negi has a proven track record of good writing, especially when you compare him to other harem romcom mangakas. I have FULL confidence that if Negi is going to write Itsuki as the winner, he is going to hit it out of the ballpark, especially since he has already properly foreshadowed it just like all of the above listed things (and more that I didn't mention).

While you're not wrong about this being foreshadowed, you're severely underestimating the difficulty of managing increases/decreases to character popularity due to said foreshadowed development.

Popularity? Who's arguing about popularity? If it all came down to popularity vote, Miku wins, PERIOD. End of discussion.

But considering I think Negi is a good writer, he will NOT follow the whims of the popularity vote. Or at the very least, he will not let his ending be swayed by such things. And sorry to any Ichika fans, but I think he has always planned her to be the sacrificial lamb to further add drama to the story in the last half. Which only goes to show he really doesn't care risking a character's popularity, if it means he gets to tell the story that we wants to tell.

I repeat... a GOOD writer is a writer that tells the story he wants to tell, while a BAD one lets external factors like popularity polls dictates what he writes. The former's main goal is to write a well-written cohesive story, while the latter's main goal is to please the masses in order to not lose sales. While only time will tell, Negi has a proven track record of being the former, so I have high hopes that either he will write the story as planned (with Itsuki winning) or he'll write it in such a way that his favourite will win (Nino).

You're seriously the last person I want to hear talk about shipping goggles. Your Itsuki bias is so extreme that you base all of these farfetched theories around her to satisfy your headcanon and always speak as though you're absolutely convinced that she's the bride.

This perplexes me. I'm a Yotsuba fan first and foremost - I've said it time and time again Yotsuba is the only one I don't care who wins even if they're not the childhood friend. Only relatively recently have I given up on her winning. which is around chapter 68 I lost all hope (I think 4chan's term is a despairfag), and only then have I seen what Negi was trying to write all along - that Itsuki was the main contender from the very beginning.

You claim I'm absolutely convinced Itsuki is the bride, but I haven't said that. I can't claim to be Negi and not choose his obviously favourite quint in the story in Nino in the end.

But what I am absolutely convinced that Itsuki is Kyoto Girl/Rena, and so one should NOT count her out until fat lady sings. Really, you're strawmanning me again, ignoring the main reason why I think Itsuki is the myster girl. To repeat, Itsuki is Kyoto Girl because:

1) At first glance in chapter 33 when he just woke up, Fuu thought Itsuki as the Kyoto Girl. Only one other quint shares the same sentiment, which is Yotsuba during their date

2) Kyoto Girl said to Young!Fuu that "you are necessary to me" and Fuu only verbalized that story in chapter 41 (of which a potential intruder may have overheard). That said, in chapter 33, Itsuki said almost the same line, which is the very reason why Fuu was reminded Itsuki as Kyoto Girl AGAIN

3) Itsuki pre-emptively brought STUDY charms to a hospital. For what reason? And note that Fuu has NEVER verablized the story of the charms to anyone in the story, so not even the 'intruder' in chp 41 would know about the significance of it (which rules out any 'intruder' being Rena)

4) In chapter 35, Fuu showed us a flashback of Kyoto Girl buying the charms "to set an example" for the quints. In chapter 39, Fuu mentions to Itsuki that he made the notes in order to "set an example" to the quints. Fuu actually loses heart, but Itsuki urges him on with "Please don't start whining. You were going to set an example, weren't you?"

Not only that, but there have been phrases Itsuki have said that may hint that her and Fuu met before. In chapter 1 Itsuki said to Fuu "sharing this table may be some kind of fate", while in the A Day Off Arc, Fuu asked Itsuki the nature of their relationship to which Itsuki replied "Should you not already know the answer to that question?" If these aren't phrases that a crafty writer want to hint that "We have met already you dolt so remember already!", I don't know what is.

Which ON TOP of the similarities how Negi has drawn Itsuki in comparison with Kyoto Girl (pay attention to the very similar camera POV I have shown in my pictures), these are just too much to be coincidence.

Just by itself alone, (the pictures, or Itsuki hinting they met before, or Itsuki exhibiting knowledge/behaviour unique to the Kyoto Girl) I may be inclined to agree with you that I am using 'shipping goggles' to fit Itsuki in as Kyoto Girl. But ALL OF THE ABOVE together? I think the amount of clues is staggering enough to rule out any other quint as Kyoto Girl (and believe me, I tried every mental feat of gymnastics to fit Yotsuba in as Kyoto Girl).

Simply put, Negi will NEVER give us 100% definite proof any quint is Kyoto Girl (or Rena) until the actual reveal, but he will hint us on the way. But if one is told that the next chapter would be the Kyoto Girl reveal, which quint do you think a betting man will put their money on, knowing all the above?


The Rena arguement is almost the same. There are only three possible candidates for Rena: Kyoto Girl (obviously she knows everything), Itsuki (the only quint been told the story at the time), and the Intruder (she may have overheard the story in chp 41). Since we can rule out the Intruder as the charms were never mentioned verbally, Rena must either be Kyoto Girl or Itsuki. Even if for some reason Itsuki is NOT the Kyoto Girl, Rena is almost definitely Itsuki BECAUSE only a mothercon like Itsuki will have her alter ego in her mom's name.

Wait. What romantic development? Itsuki showed romantic interest in Fuu? Dude, it's really hard to take you seriously when you say stuff like that. The closest thing we had that's even remotely close to romantic is the few days she stayed over at Fuu's house. We can throw in the school trip/legend that binds while we're at it, but I think most will agree that Ichika benefited the most from that arc, romantically speaking.

Hell, Yotsuba has more romantic moments with Fuu than Itsuki and everyone still considers her ship as sunk.

If Fuu was mentioned to have loved Kyoto Girl for 5 years because of their brief meeting by Nino, then one doesn't need to take a leap to arrive that Kyoto Girl may have loved Fuu as well. In other words, it's been hinted at that Itsuki may have loved Fuu all along, and we are just waiting for the proper time to reveal it.

Look man, if an author is willling to put the effort to hint at the existence of the 'hidden childhood friend' from the very beginning (or even near the beginning), then either that girl is 'last boss' or 'endgame' material. In fact, mangas such as Deadman Wonderland, Nekoto no Koto, and Mahoraba pretty much paint them all (all of them first/main girl, all of them present since the beginning, all of them their past with MC isn't revealed till much later on the story) as 'endgame'.

Will 5toubun follow in the same footsteps? If Negi sticks to his original plan (because Kyoto Girl/Rena follows the same formula to such a trope winning), then Itsuki will win. But it's frigging obvious that Negi really loves Nino even outside of the story that he may go along with his favourite in the end, and I can't fault him for that.

[Tenzen12]

To be able write Itsuki as winner in believable manner Negi woulf have to be genius. If he is just mere good writter he will avoid Itsuki route altogether. And as good as Negi seems to be I didn't see any signs of geniality.

I will not argue whether Itsuki is Kyouto girls, it's actually pretty possible. It's unlikely for KG being bride though.

Also being affected by external factors doesn't mean writers is bad. Sometimes it's better go with flow and sometimes is better do own thing. Story have to be cohesive either way.

[Sixth]

Originally Posted by Calca

This is one of the few stories where harem ending is warranted.

It will ruin the entire foundation and purpose of this manga, but then mangaka is a human, after all, maybe he will change his mind and make it harem ending after received enough death threats in the future.

[MK-95-]

Looks like we're going the distance again this time. Sigh After this reply, I'm not replying to any followups. I've already said most of what I wanted to anyway.

Originally Posted by DragoonKain3

Emphasis mine.

That's just your opinion. The very fact that every major reveal has been properly foreshadowed points to Negi actually being a good writer. Let me just list just some things non-shipping he did rather well:

-chapter 1 Raiha mentions their dad got him the job, which in turn foreshadows Isanari having personal relations with Maruo
-Itsuki disguising as Ichika was foreshadowed from her using Uesugi-kun, and Miku disguising as Itsuki was
-Nino being good at cooking and her wanting to open up her own restaurant foreshadowed her working with Fuu at the shop
-Ichika turning Yandere in the latest chapter has been hinted at multiple chapters before

Negi has a proven track record of good writing, especially when you compare him to other harem romcom mangakas. I have FULL confidence that if Negi is going to write Itsuki as the winner, he is going to hit it out of the ballpark, especially since he has already properly foreshadowed it just like all of the above listed things (and more that I didn't mention).

And I keep telling you that just because Itsuki is foreshadowed to be KG/Rena doesn't really mean squat for her chances of winning. She's too underdeveloped when directly compared to Miku, Nino and formerly Ichika. You're capable of logical deduction as shown above, but are so blinded by your Itsuki bias that you refuse to acknowledge that even if she's KG/Rena, her chances don't really improve much as she's easily overshadowed by Miku and Nino.

Have you ever even remotely considered the possibility that even if she were to come out and admit to being KG/Rena, instead of going a route that leads to romance, she becomes a best friend, accomplice or confidant? I'm pretty sure you haven't because you're completely fixated on the idea that KG = Bride.

Popularity? Who's arguing about popularity? If it all came down to popularity vote, Miku wins, PERIOD. End of discussion.

But considering I think Negi is a good writer, he will NOT follow the whims of the popularity vote. Or at the very least, he will not let his ending be swayed by such things. And sorry to any Ichika fans, but I think he has always planned her to be the sacrificial lamb to further add drama to the story in the last half. Which only goes to show he really doesn't care risking a character's popularity, if it means he gets to tell the story that we wants to tell.

I repeat... a GOOD writer is a writer that tells the story he wants to tell, while a BAD one lets external factors like popularity polls dictates what he writes. The former's main goal is to write a well-written cohesive story, while the latter's main goal is to please the masses in order to not lose sales. While only time will tell, Negi has a proven track record of being the former, so I have high hopes that either he will write the story as planned (with Itsuki winning) or he'll write it in such a way that his favourite will win (Nino).

Popularity has a lot to do with it my guy. What BS are you trying to pull here? Name one series where the least popular heroine won (also, don't give me a series where there were only two heroines). I'm not saying it's impossible, but it definitely goes against all of the conventional norms an author is expected to follow. As Itsuki is now, were she to win, 90% of readers would be dissatisfied with that outcome. She NEEDS to have her stock raised a significant amount before we can even decide to include her in any legitimate shipping discussions and I'm not convinced that Negi can pull that off with the time he has left.

For the record, I've never said that Negi is a bad writer. Please note that I've said on multiple occasions that "if he does this or he does that, then that's bad writing". What does that mean? It means that as long as he doesn't do those things I highlighted, then he isn't a bad writer.

Ha that's a good joke. Since when does acknowledging external factors make a writer bad? They're simply taking advantage of what readers like in their work to bolster their work's worth (both monetary and qualitative). What I define a bad writer as is someone who fails to renew interest in their work when things begin to get stale, someone who needs to rely on either asspulls or shitty intentional writing to keep a heroine relevant when she really isn't, romantically speaking.

So does external factors such as declining health, clashes in schedule and executive meddling leading to less than stellar writing make an author bad too? Don't just conveniently target the easy stuff like character popularity, trends and viewer/reader reception. If you want to bring up external factors, then mention EVERYTHING, even the stuff that doesn't support your point.

A bad writer is one who has the time and freedom to completely devote themselves to their work and still fail to deliver solid writing. These authors would do everything wrong from bad writing, to plot holes, to Mary Sue's/Marty Stu's, to asspulls. You name it, they've done it.

and only then have I seen what Negi was trying to write all along - that Itsuki was the main contender from the very beginning.

This gave me a good laugh. Main contender since the beginning? We're both definitely reading two different manga here. How do you come to the conclusion that Itsuki's the main contender when she hasn't even left the starting line yet?

You claim I'm absolutely convinced Itsuki is the bride, but I haven't said that. I can't claim to be Negi and not choose his obviously favourite quint in the story in Nino in the end.

But what I am absolutely convinced that Itsuki is Kyoto Girl/Rena, and so one should NOT count her out until fat lady sings. Really, you're strawmanning me again, ignoring the main reason why I think Itsuki is the myster girl. To repeat, Itsuki is Kyoto Girl because:

Not only that, but there have been phrases Itsuki have said that may hint that her and Fuu met before. In chapter 1 Itsuki said to Fuu "sharing this table may be some kind of fate", while in the A Day Off Arc, Fuu asked Itsuki the nature of their relationship to which Itsuki replied "Should you not already know the answer to that question?" If these aren't phrases that a crafty writer want to hint that "We have met already you dolt so remember already!", I don't know what is.

I'll omit your reasons to save space.

Note that I've never dismissed you for claiming that Itsuki is KG or Rena. I'm inclined to agree that she's most likely one of the two, if not both myself. What I have dismissed is the idea that KG/Rena = Bride.

However, if you think her having the KG/Rena card is enough to cement her as a legitimate candidate and is reason enough to validate her winning, then you're sorely mistaken, but I digress. In short, having that card isn't helping her chances, but it is a nice consolation prize for all her shippers that she turns out to be the childhood friend I guess.

Which ON TOP of the similarities how Negi has drawn Itsuki in comparison with Kyoto Girl (pay attention to the very similar camera POV I have shown in my pictures), these are just too much to be coincidence.

Just by itself alone, (the pictures, or Itsuki hinting they met before, or Itsuki exhibiting knowledge/behaviour unique to the Kyoto Girl) I may be inclined to agree with you that I am using 'shipping goggles' to fit Itsuki in as Kyoto Girl. But ALL OF THE ABOVE together? I think the amount of clues is staggering enough to rule out any other quint as Kyoto Girl (and believe me, I tried every mental feat of gymnastics to fit Yotsuba in as Kyoto Girl).

Simply put, Negi will NEVER give us 100% definite proof any quint is Kyoto Girl (or Rena) until the actual reveal, but he will hint us on the way. But if one is told that the next chapter would be the Kyoto Girl reveal, which quint do you think a betting man will put their money on, knowing all the above?

Please don't try to justify your side-by-side comparison pictures. Should've just dropped it then and there when I pointed out that they're identical quints, but you seriously are trying to defend it.

Wow POV/camera angles and head tilts... such a convincing argument you're making there. So, are all the head tilts in Monogatari from the same character? What about Bokuben, do the visually identical panels between Yuiga and Fumino actually mean something? (I'm a Fumino shipper btw, but even I don't resort to relying on flimsy shit like that to support my ship)

The Rena arguement is almost the same. There are only three possible candidates for Rena: Kyoto Girl (obviously she knows everything), Itsuki (the only quint been told the story at the time), and the Intruder (she may have overheard the story in chp 41). Since we can rule out the Intruder as the charms were never mentioned verbally, Rena must either be Kyoto Girl or Itsuki. Even if for some reason Itsuki is NOT the Kyoto Girl, Rena is almost definitely Itsuki BECAUSE only a mothercon like Itsuki will have her alter ego in her mom's name.

Again, I've never dismissed the possibility that Itsuki is KG or Rena. So no need to keep defending this point. What I dismiss is your belief that being KG/Rena automatically means that Itsuki is on equal footing with Miku/Nino.

If Fuu was mentioned to have loved Kyoto Girl for 5 years because of their brief meeting by Nino, then one doesn't need to take a leap to arrive that Kyoto Girl may have loved Fuu as well. In other words, it's been hinted at that Itsuki may have loved Fuu all along, and we are just waiting for the proper time to reveal it.

This argument would carry more significance if Fuu was actually an emotionally expressive character back then. My guy, Fuu never even acknowledged the concept of love until literally 2-4 chapters ago. You're taking what was essentially Nino jumping to conclusions and using it as a crutch to support your argument.

Unlike Nino who heard the story, we as readers saw the exchange between Fuu and KG. We've also seen him trail off in his thoughts about her every now and then. From what we've been shown so far, all I can see from Fuu is admiration and respect, not love.

So when Sakura did her false confession to Naruto back during the Five Kage Summit, she meant it, right? My point being that just because another character says something, it doesn't always mean it should be treated as definitive evidence.

We've been given no reason to believe that Fuu loves or has loved KG. So why are you presenting information that you can't support?

Look man, if an author is willling to put the effort to hint at the existence of the 'hidden childhood friend' from the very beginning (or even near the beginning), then either that girl is 'last boss' or 'endgame' material. In fact, mangas such as Deadman Wonderland, Nekoto no Koto, and Mahoraba pretty much paint them all (all of them first/main girl, all of them present since the beginning, all of them their past with MC isn't revealed till much later on the story) as 'endgame'.

Will 5toubun follow in the same footsteps? If Negi sticks to his original plan (because Kyoto Girl/Rena follows the same formula to such a trope winning), then Itsuki will win. But it's frigging obvious that Negi really loves Nino even outside of the story that he may go along with his favourite in the end, and I can't fault him for that.

Dude, I've said many times that I can't go along with your theories. It isn't even a matter of me being a troll or flame baiting you either. I legitimately just can't agree with more than half of what you're trying to pass off as sound logic.

Your Itsuki bias is as apparent as it gets and you don't even try to disguise your subjectivity. Discussions between us almost always end up becoming essays that eventually fizzle out into stalemates. That's why I don't really bother to quote you anymore because I already know how it'll end.

[Lex79]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

To be able write Itsuki as winner in believable manner Negi woulf have to be genius. If he is just mere good writter he will avoid Itsuki route altogether. And as good as Negi seems to be I didn't see any signs of geniality.

I will not argue whether Itsuki is Kyouto girls, it's actually pretty possible. It's unlikely for KG being bride though.

Also being affected by external factors doesn't mean writers is bad. Sometimes it's better go with flow and sometimes is better do own thing. Story have to be cohesive either way.

Genius? Itsuki has been hinted as the possible end girl since the beginning of the series. If she is really the Kyoto girl, Negi only needs to have her spend time with Fuutarou so they can develop feelings (and now that they both have a study related objective, it's pretty easy), and seal the deal with the big reveal.

[Tenzen12]

Kyoto girl is irrelevant. It doesn't matter who it is. I am inclined think it's indeed Itsuki btw.

And rather then saying Itsuki was hinted since the beginning, it would be more accurate say she was hinted only in the beginning, but after that she failed make any progress and completely missed her opportunity. Itsuki is basically this manga Rizu and make either of them end girl would be equally silly.

[Lex79]

Being the Kyoto girl could be a big bonus in trying to win Fuutarou's affection. I wouldn't say it's irrelevant.
And there are hints in the latest chapters that Itsuki might be hiding something from her sisters. Something that could be make them angry and jealous, maybe. Plus we had Fuutarou's first kiss, and the author chose Itsuki's appearance for that scene. She hadn't yet failed or missed anything.