Final Fantasy XIII

[problemedchild]

Originally Posted by miroku2192

Man they really do need the dual-voice, that would be so awesome. Right now, i think that's one of the big things holding me back from getting this game for sure...I've never really been a big fan of english dubs on anime faces, they just never seem "right" to me for some reason. I don't know what it is, but it just sounds silly and forced.

Give the English voices a shot, ToV's dub was done fairly well.

As it's not SO:4 level dubbing, I think I'll be content.

[fertygo]

But face on FF XIII sure far than what you called "anime face"
so i think english dub will not leaving weird feeling like if you play Ar Tonelico series with english dub

[miroku2192]

Originally Posted by fertygo

But face on FF XIII sure far than what you called "anime face"
so i think english dub will not leaving weird feeling like if you play Ar Tonelico series with english dub

Yeah but I doubt it. I mean i'll give it a go obviously, but if i were to listen to both, I'm sure i'd enjoy the japanese one more. Maybe the english dub will grow on me, and perhaps i will come to enjoy/love it, for this game at least. Hopefully that is the case.

But i mean, i can't really imagine a good english dub for FF7 Advent children. How were the english dubs for that?

[Demongod86]

Well just finished last remnant...frankly I hope FFXIII doesn't let the gameplay get in the way of experiencing the game as much as TLR did, because TLR was pretty spectacular otherwise (aside from the fact that all of those sidequests the dev team spent programming can just go missed without a second thought).

And honestly...can someone please tell me the whole idea behind bonus bosses? I mean if there are these critters so freakishly powerful that they make the final storyline boss look like a pancake in comparison, then how come everyone hears about the final boss but not these uber godlike critters terrorizing the locals?

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Demongod86

Well just finished last remnant...frankly I hope FFXIII doesn't let the gameplay get in the way of experiencing the game as much as TLR did, because TLR was pretty spectacular otherwise (aside from the fact that all of those sidequests the dev team spent programming can just go missed without a second thought).

And honestly...can someone please tell me the whole idea behind bonus bosses? I mean if there are these critters so freakishly powerful that they make the final storyline boss look like a pancake in comparison, then how come everyone hears about the final boss but not these uber godlike critters terrorizing the locals?

because there are players who prefer a hard game instead of a cakewalk. The Bonus Boss allow the developer to give the hardcore gamers a real challenge. A challenge they can't put in the main storyline or else the casual gamer would claim it is too hard.

[Demongod86]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

because there are players who prefer a hard game instead of a cakewalk. The Bonus Boss allow the developer to give the hardcore gamers a real challenge. A challenge they can't put in the main storyline or else the casual gamer would claim it is too hard.

Except in an RPG, there is really no such thing as "too hard" so much as "too much grinding an abstract system" involved.

The problem with bonus bosses is that they are part of the storyline. They're not some "You beat the game. Here's a bonus character to duel" or something like that. They are usually somehow tangentially related such as "oh noes! Such and such a <<bonus boss>> is going around pwning <<such and such an area>>! Go stop it!"

And when you can't, you usually feel crummy.

My whole issue with gameplay in Japanese RPGs period is that IMO leveling up is an abstraction. It's not like real life is defined by "you completed a homework assignment! Int +1!". The whole battle system and random encounters are generally there to give gamers something to do, which makes next to no sense from a storyline perspective.

For instance, say you go up against a dragon. It uses "super hot breath of massive third degree burns" and instagibs one of your party members. Now suddenly a revive spell is going to undo all those massive third degree burns?

I like playing JRPGs for the story experience. They're literally visual + audio novels for me, because they're the only types of video games with a story worth experiencing rather than "Bad guys took over the <<location>>! Kill them all!"

But then there's the whole issue of "LULZ RANDOM ENCOUNTERS" which is such a case of gameplay and story segregation it's ridiculous.

Random encounters for me in JRPGs are sort of what minerals and vespene gas are for starcraft. I mean what the heck...how do you suddenly put up a fully functioning barracks in one minute and then have it produce marines that weren't there before? (At least protoss warp and zerg hatch...but Terrans?)

IMO the most innovative battle system for a JRPG would be one that doesn't require segregation from the plot.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Demongod86

IMO the most innovative battle system for a JRPG would be one that doesn't require segregation from the plot.

basically what you want is a visual novel not a game.

[Demongod86]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

basically what you want is a visual novel not a game.

Except visual novels are defined by set pictures, not by full on cutscenes. What I more or less want is a 60 hour movie.

[germanturkey]

Originally Posted by Demongod86

Except visual novels are defined by set pictures, not by full on cutscenes. What I more or less want is a 60 hour movie.

they tried that once, it was called Xenosaga 1 but yeah, i love immersion, and its one of the key things i look for in games, but when its a straight up movie, i don't think i'd like it very much. a game like Heavy Rain might be for you then..

anywho, i LOVED FFX, this one's for me then right? it comes out my spring break..

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by germanturkey

they tried that once, it was called Xenosaga 1 but yeah, i love immersion, and its one of the key things i look for in games, but when its a straight up movie, i don't think i'd like it very much. a game like Heavy Rain might be for you then..

anywho, i LOVED FFX, this one's for me then right? it comes out my spring break..

i always wonder why the bother making a Xenosaga anime when they coul dhave just use the cut scenes form the game i did enjoy when koz-mos first awoke and her fight scenes with 2 vulcan guns

[DragoonKain3]

Originally Posted by DemonGod

Except in an RPG, there is really no such thing as "too hard" so much as "too much grinding an abstract system" involved.

Nah. The more hardcore RPGs will still kill you if your strategy is not sound, no matter how much you 'grind an abstract system'.

The problem with bonus bosses is that they are part of the storyline. They're not some "You beat the game. Here's a bonus character to duel" or something like that.

Umm... most bonus bosses are NOT part of the storyline at all. Most of the time, they're usually 'just there' with no reference from the game.

They are usually somehow tangentially related such as "oh noes! Such and such a <<bonus boss>> is going around pwning <<such and such an area>>! Go stop it!"

But that's not part of the storyline. It's just some sidequest that has no bearing to the overall plot.

Taking recent SE games for example, in The Last Remnant/FF12 the optional bosses are just there simply as guild quests; no backstory at all. SO4/Infinite Undiscovery optional bosses are set in an optional dungeon that's not mentioned at all by the story proper.

And when you can't, you usually feel crummy.

Only casual players do, and that's the reason why the final story boss usually ain't the toughest fight you'll face.

Hardcore players take every defeat as something to spurn them to try again to actually defeat such a boss. It's those people what the bonus bosses are for.

My whole issue with gameplay in Japanese RPGs period is that IMO leveling up is an abstraction. It's not like real life is defined by "you completed a homework assignment! Int +1!".

You do know that not only jRPGs, but RPGs in general started with the abstraction with D&D. Even the concept of hitpoints is an abstraction, fro example.

Complaining about abstraction in an RPG would be like complaining about kissing in romance movie. It is what defines the genre; without it, it wouldn't be worthy to be called of belonging in that genre.

For instance, say you go up against a dragon. It uses "super hot breath of massive third degree burns" and instagibs one of your party members. Now suddenly a revive spell is going to undo all those massive third degree burns?

Suspension of disbelief. If you can do it into thinking that a giant lizard as tall as a skycraper can actually fly and breath fire that can cause third degree burns to others without burning his own mouth, doing the same into thinking theres a magical spell that can revive people from the dead should be even easier.

I like playing JRPGs for the story experience. They're literally visual + audio novels for me, because they're the only types of video games with a story worth experiencing rather than "Bad guys took over the <<location>>! Kill them all!"

*snicker*

Oh boy, you play JRPGS for the story experience? You're just trading "Bad guys took over the <<location>>! Kill them all!" into "Hero (and maybe his friends) come into his own and then tries to save the world from the evil mastemind".

IMO the most innovative battle system for a JRPG would be one that doesn't require segregation from the plot.

Been done already. It's called Demon's Souls. XD

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by DragoonKain3

Suspension of disbelief. If you can do it into thinking that a giant lizard as tall as a skycraper can actually fly and breath fire that can cause third degree burns to others without burning his own mouth, doing the same into thinking theres a magical spell that can revive people from the dead should be even easier.

What I don't get is how he can play any videogame and not understand this.

Originally Posted by DragoonKain3

Oh boy, you play JRPGS for the story experience? You're just trading "Bad guys took over the <<location>>! Kill them all!" into "Hero (and maybe his friends) come into his own and then tries to save the world from the evil mastemind".

To be fair, JRPGs do generally have more involved, if not better plots than most other videogame genres out there.

I, for one, also play these games for the story/characters (and that is why I'll be playing FFXIII) but judging by the oft-heard complaints of "linearity" and "too many cutscenes", it does seem like not many people do.

Originally Posted by DragoonKain3

Been done already. It's called Demon's Souls. XD

Demon's Souls isn't a JRPG, it's a WRPG made by a Japanese developer. It's like the exact opposite of Black Sigil: Blade of the Exiled.

[DragoonKain3]

Originally Posted by Kaisos

To be fair, JRPGs do generally have more involved, if not better plots than most other videogame genres out there.

I, for one, also play these games for the story/characters (and that is why I'll be playing FFXIII) but judging by the oft-heard complaints of "linearity" and "too many cutscenes", it does seem like not many people do.

I think I'll leave it to one of the Bioware guys.

http://kotaku.com/5430803/bioware-on...ne-of-the-jrpg

I've been saying that JRPGs, at least in the story department, have long since stagnated before Bioware called them on it. They've only been breaking the mold recently, but its still pretty rare.

Not like I can blame them. Japan seems to be on a whole culturally just likes to see the same thing over and over again, only better. At least it applies to anime and JRPGs as well. I personally can only hope FF13 is different. FF12's was, but political intrigue didn't suit a lot of people's taste over here. :shrug:

Demon's Souls isn't a JRPG, it's a WRPG made by a Japanese developer. It's like the exact opposite of Black Sigil: Blade of the Exiled.

As far as a lot of people are concerned, it's who and where the game is made that differentiates JRPG to WRPG. While it may not play like other RPGs coming from Japan, the fact that it comes from Japan makes Demon's Souls a Japanese RPG.

I mean really... what other criteria makes Demon's Souls a WRPG?

[Guernsey]

While I argee that JRPGs hadn't really changed that much from the look at things, there had been games especially this one that deviated (even if onyl slighty) from the tried and true formula. However, I cannot say that WRPGs are any better either especially with that DnD formula and the gameplay being what it is, I just don't what am I supposed to be doing all the time. Inasmuch I enjoy games like Mass Effect, I cannot help but feel that the emphasis is more on the dialogue rather than the gameplay. And who says it is only JRPGs doing thew same thing over and over? Considering the fact that Bioware practically makes the same games over and over with the same type of characters and dialogue, it just feels as though I had played certain Bioware games many times before using the same strategies from previous games into this current one.

These guys say it better than I do and I quote:

Spoiler for Messing with a good thing:

One has to wonder though, is staying pretty much the same with changes really staying the same? JRPG's get a lot of changes, IMO. I mean, FF13 is getting some flac atm from the 2chan folks for being too different. I have to really wonder at BioWare (as much as I love their games) about how they view JRPG's if this is how they seem them, despite the vast majority of JRPG's being rather different from each other.

And even if JRPG's are staying the same (some are, some aren't), what's so bad about it? Tried but true game mechanics work because they work... there's no real need to change it. Trying to always innovate isn't always a good thing.

For that matter, are WRPG's really all that different from each other? Stemming mostly from a DnD style gameplay, most WRPG's are pretty similar. It's rather easy to carry successful tactics from one WRPG to another, with similar success. IMO, BioWare needs to look at itself a bit more before looking at others.

Honestly, the "decline" in JRPG's to me seems more like an economy thing, in combination with the fact that WRPG's are finally stepping up their game. The switch in console hardware probably is a factor as well, with developers having to learn new hardware. It's really right about now that most of the developers are becoming familiar enough to pull off stuff like they did in the PS2 gen. And in conjunction with the slightly better economy now, I expect to see JRPG's recovering a bit, if not regaining their former throne.

...that said, the current game I'm obsessing over is Dragon Age, a WRPG.

Spoiler for "Choices":

Is it true that JRPGs have not evolved nearly as much as WRPGs have over the years? Yes. But the more important question is have the evolution of WRPGs made worthy of the various praise that has been placed upon their latest incarnations?

My answer is no. The biggest praise given to Bioware's has been the depth of "choices". Yet these choices feel weightless and hollow when made within the game. This is a comment coming from Bioware, so let's take a look at their latest game, DAO, in regard to it's own issues with choices (some minor spoilers I suppose).

Your quest choices in DAO impacted nothing but what units you were able to summon during the final seige. The game tells you that what you did was significant, but the scope of it doesn't let you see first hand any of the consequences. Can DAO expand on this in future games? Yes. But the problem is the game within which you made them gains nothing from the decisions other than some minor changes to the creatures of the landscape. Who you place upon the throne of Orzammar makes no difference within the game as the end result is identical: you have dwarves in your army now. I'd say the only choice with any actual consequence was the mage's guild, as it fed into your choices for Redcliffe.

Your character choices are also awkward. For example, why would you ever kill the dog, or Sten, within the first hours of the game? The game has given you no reason to hate the qu'nari enough that you'd kill him (in fact, no lore has been offered for his people at all yet), and the fact that DAO is a game pretty much compels you to let them live to see what addition they give to your game play experience. If killing him (or doing almost anything that would force out a party member for that matter (I'd give Andraste's ashes a pass, but barely because you can just leave the gauntlet and switch up your party members to avoid the consequences)) opened up another section of the game, this wouldn't be as much of an issue. But when one choice simply leaves you feeling like you're missing out, not like you're walking a different path, that's not choice at all.

[Demongod86]

Yes, I will complain about abstraction in RPGs. I hate to say Legend of Zelda or Megaman X did things somewhat correctly, but the idea that advancement in the plot != doing a hundred times as much damage as you did in the beginning per hit is something I happen to think makes sense.

And it isn't so much suspension of disbelief as

"Giant lizard did an attack which should rip person in half. Person loses half his HP."

I mean honestly at which point can we get off of the D&D system? If a dragon chomps down on a character, said character dies. Generally, what exactly are dragons, who are supposed to be these uber-intelligent beings, doing making their lairs in random caves guarding treasure chests when if humans lives in some sort of civilized cities, can't dragons have their own uber-advanced dragon cities?

And why must dragons necessarily be reptilian lizards anyway? Who says they can't be fluffy and mammalian? With shapeshifting abilities?

As for JRPG plots...well...the big bad final boss is always going to be there. But just because you're going to have to fight a final boss doesn't mean that he's always trying to take over or destroy the <<location>>!

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Demongod86

Yes, I will complain about abstraction in RPGs. I hate to say Legend of Zelda or Megaman X did things somewhat correctly, but the idea that advancement in the plot != doing a hundred times as much damage as you did in the beginning per hit is something I happen to think makes sense.

And it isn't so much suspension of disbelief as

"Giant lizard did an attack which should rip person in half. Person loses half his HP."

I mean honestly at which point can we get off of the D&D system? If a dragon chomps down on a character, said character dies. Generally, what exactly are dragons, who are supposed to be these uber-intelligent beings, doing making their lairs in random caves guarding treasure chests when if humans lives in some sort of civilized cities, can't dragons have their own uber-advanced dragon cities?

And why must dragons necessarily be reptilian lizards anyway? Who says they can't be fluffy and mammalian? With shapeshifting abilities?

As for JRPG plots...well...the big bad final boss is always going to be there. But just because you're going to have to fight a final boss doesn't mean that he's always trying to take over or destroy the <<location>>!

the whole basis of jrpg has been the D&D system, if you don't like D&D them you shouldn't be playing these games.

[Leo Keichi]

I didn't like FFXIII not having towns. For me, fooling around the towns, talking with people and doing sidequests is one of the main attractions in an RPG.

I also like the battles and the leveling up, but I just think that it takes too much time. Having to kill hundreds of monsters and then going up only like 6 levels is really tiresome for me.

But actually, I still prefer Zelda games' style of gameplay. So, for me, the perfect RPG would be something with a nice story full of cutscenes, like a Final Fantasy game, and a gameplay which is more like a platformer.

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

To be fair, JRPGs do generally have more involved, if not better plots than most other videogame genres out there.

I, for one, also play these games for the story/characters (and that is why I'll be playing FFXIII) but judging by the oft-heard complaints of "linearity" and "too many cutscenes", it does seem like not many people do.

Actually, most RPG fans don't mind about it. It's just that the complainers usually get more attention than the others.

[2H-Dragon]

Originally Posted by DragoonKain3

Not like I can blame them. Japan seems to be on a whole culturally just likes to see the same thing over and over again, only better. At least it applies to anime and JRPGs as well. I personally can only hope FF13 is different. FF12's was, but political intrigue didn't suit a lot of people's taste over here. :shrug:

Do you honestly think it was because of the political intrigue? People never had problem with what it had, they problems with what it lacked. That being character development. Character motivation. If just had that and with a bit of soap opera romance in it, they probably have loved the story. Not to mention the story lacked twists eventhough most games tend to have to much and become bullshit to an extend, but what it does is make the story more engaging even though it lowers the overall quality it keeps you going.

[Demongod86]

Originally Posted by 2H-Dragon

Do you honestly think it was because of the political intrigue? People never had problem with what it had, they problems with what it lacked. That being character development. Character motivation. If just had that and with a bit of soap opera romance in it, they probably have loved the story. Not to mention the story lacked twists eventhough most games tend to have to much and become bullshit to an extend, but what it does is make the story more engaging even though it lowers the overall quality it keeps you going.

Not so much development. More like characters dropping their storylines like halfway through (about the time Yazmat got sick and stopped directing FFXII's production).

Edit: Xellos, as for DnD, you know, there's this word called innovation. Interesting how Nintendo didn't have to resort to that for Legend of Zelda (despite the horrid plotlines). I honestly wonder why with games such as namco's soul calibur, they can afford to program hundreds of commands onto a single character, but that JRPGs still rely on numbers and menus rather than black-boxing all of that and leaving a much more fluid system in its place.

[DragoonKain3]

Seriously Demongod, do yourself a favour and play Demon's Souls. It has all you are looking for and more; you want Dragons one-shotting people with their firebreathing? You've got it. You want yourself killed in two or three slices from regular enemies? Yep, its there. Falling down a height of several stories? Oh yeah, you're dead as a doornail. Battle system as realistic as possible within the confines of medieval fantasy? Hell yeah. Sure there's some degree of abstraction, but this is as good as it gets.

Because honestly, you're contradicting yourself. Even Zelda has time and time again relied on abstraction. Final boss doing his super attack? Despite it should outright kill anyone it hits, you lose maybe like 2 or 3 hearts out of your max total (which can be around 20 or more). Yeah, great example there.

And seriously... Megaman X an RPG? o_O

Really, if its an RPG, it will DEFINITELY have some degree of abstraction. It's just that JRPGs tend to rely more on it. You don't like it? Then don't play it. Go play WRPGs or another genre entirely, or go find the rare exceptions of the genre that fits to your tastes.


And again, if you can will yourself into believing that a giant lizard can fly and breath fire, then its not so hard to will yourself to believe that your hero can withstand attacks that would otherwise fell normal men. He's supposed to be a superhuman, having battle experience gained upon several thousand battles, and hardened because of it.

This is where the abstraction comes handy. It directs your imagination into what you should be thinking what happened.

For instance, if a giant dragon chomps on your hero and he loses half HP, you don't think of it as your hero surviving a direct hit. You think of it as your hero, due to his experience, was able to position/defend himself in such a way that the attack only wounds him instead of outright killing him. He's still up only due to his sheer physical resilience, but one more such attack and he's a goner.

How did he do it? You leave that to your imagination, like you're supposed to. You might see the attack connect full on through your TV, but you're supposed to think that your hero did something or possesses something that would allow him to survive it, assuming he still has some hp left.

THAT is what HP is supposed to represent. Just because a particularly arrow might only do 1 damage does not mean a 1000 hp warrior can survive 999 direct arrow hits. It only means that it takes 999 arrows to fatigue/wound him, before he cannot defend himself anymore and that 1000th well aimed arrow finally pierces his heart.


As for why dragons are giant lizards? You might as well ask why elves have long ears, dwarves short and stocky, and giants several times bigger than your average human. They are those things BECAUSE if they are not, you wouldn't call them dragons/elves/dwarves/giants/etc >_>