2012-09-08, 02:47 | Link #30421 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
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I thought the kihihihi might help show that, but I guess previously people used it when they thought they were being clever and one-upping or something. I was merely trying to emulate the witches when they point out that meta Battler is happy to blame a relative if it denies witches, while game-board Battler would hate to ever do that, and even has hated Beato for it in a meta fashion (ep 2, Jessica's room). Joke = explained. Last edited by GuestSpeaker; 2012-09-08 at 02:48. Reason: So the syntax matches that of the quote better |
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2012-09-08, 02:56 | Link #30423 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
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Oh darn, my opinion has just swung back. I finally found the page, and next to it Lambda declares "but without her (Erika) the number of people is the same as in previous games". I guess Ryu was playing a people vs something else word game and the picture was very deceptive. I liked my answer better.
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2012-09-08, 05:08 | Link #30425 | |
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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I still suspect that the key to EP5's Kanon-Shannon thing has to do with the complete lack of any objective narrator. Something interesting I just realized is that there is, IIRC, no scene in EP5 with Battler and just one ShKanon. It's not just different from the rule before, but opposite: In EP5 Battler always sees Kanon and Shannon together. ------------------------ Regarding the Kanon-Sakutaro comparison. I was reading the Maria's diary part of EP4 and realized that Maria's diary itself, as a kind of "subjective-fantasized" version of real events, actually parallels the Rokkenjima fictions pretty well. And in Maria's diary Sakutaro says all sorts of stuff even when Rosa is around. There was even a meta-discussion between Maria and Ange about it and how Ange could see the "truth" behind Maria's optimistic narrative- that Rosa was neglectful. Interesting about that is that Maria still refused to accept Ange's interpretation as "truth". Also interesting when considering this is that Beatrice uses Ushiromiya Maria as her pen name. You could suppose that Maria's diary was even the template for the "subjective-fantasized reality" style of Beatrice's Rokkenjima stories, and that that's why she credited Maria with them. |
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2012-09-08, 06:19 | Link #30426 | |||
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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This however generates a problem similar to the one in Ep 3. Someone solved the epitaph and yet murders continued. Ryukishi stated that if someone where to solve the epitaph, Yasu would have stopped killing. While in Ep 3 we can think they continued because Eva didn't openly said she solved it, in Ep 5 Battler reveals he solved the epitaph to a good bunch of people. It's unlikely Yasu doesn't know he solved it. So we go back to two old theories: - the epitaph wasn't solved, the solution was handed to someone - someone else took Yasu's place and killed the people who were faking to be dead like it happens in Ep 6. Quote:
And if Bern knew, as she hate losing, she would have probably supported Erika in order not to let her lose. Quote:
However so far no one has found a really satisfing solution for the people number problem in Ep 5 so, unless Ep 7 or 8 manga version will address to it, I fear the fandom will remain split in the various solutions proposed by fans. |
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2012-09-08, 07:47 | Link #30427 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2011
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Well technically they were both there. When you are told "everyone is there" you expect the 17, and so therefore when people read it without taking into consideration Shkannon, then one could easily imagine Shannon was standing on one side of the room and Kanon on the other.
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Maybe Bern's goal was not to find the answer, but to find an answer that doesn't involve Beatrice at all. Bern may have known, but she doesn't like the answer that's in the book. Bern's goal, and by acting as Bern's proxy, Erika's goal, was to find an answer in which anyone other than Beatrice (Yasu) was the culprit. Of course then you have the way people and personalities work and then you could still pin the crime on Shannon and it still wouldn't be Beatrice.
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2012-09-08, 09:33 | Link #30428 | |
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
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* A miserable little pile of secrets!
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2012-09-08, 10:19 | Link #30429 | ||||||
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Join Date: Apr 2012
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Besides, I never said humans. Furthermore, I believe the existential crisis of whether we exist or not was solved with: I think, therefore I am. I cannot know you exist with a mind separate to mine, all I can truly know is I exist because I think even when unobserved. |
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2012-09-08, 10:30 | Link #30430 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
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Then again, maybe I am being unfair. Kanon did spend eons of time saying he wasn't a human, and the yet the reds called him a person. This would all be hunky dory if then there wasn't that thing where Erika said "I am the 18th human" in red, and they said "there are only 17 people" in red.
If Erika had said "I am the 18th person" and they said "there are only 17 people", this would have kept the internal consistency of the reds I think, and made the parlor trick valid even with the picture. Unless there is evidence that human = personality and person = body I don't know about (I honestly thought it was the other way) Regardless it was awfully convenient for Erika to include person number in her statement if she didn't know the trick. But for narrative sake I let it slide. |
2012-09-08, 14:18 | Link #30431 | |
The True Culprit
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2012-09-08, 15:21 | Link #30432 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
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- in Sims too you don't get a view that's exactly the same as your Sim. The observation point is different, allowing you to see things he's not seeing. On the other side he also might be seeing things you're not seeing and you won't be reported about them. - the player can see the ballons expressing the Sims dialogues and thoughts... but likely the Sims can't. Though it's not exactly the same the ballons are somewhat similar to the magic scenes in certain instances: something that doesn't exist but that's just a representation of something else. In short SimsErika might have been in the parlor, perfectly still or searching for food or talking because the player wasn't giving her instructions and the player would see the scene from a completely different viewpoint that would allow him to see Shannon & Kanon too. The player could check if Erika could see Shannon and Kanon only if she/he were to try to force SimErika to talk with them (which would be impossible as one of them is... well not there) or if SimErika has in her option 'show the action from Erika's viewpoint' (or something that can work in a similar way) and comparing this with the 'player vision' you can find there's nothing where Shannon or Kanon were supposed to be. Quote:
I think it was in Ep 5 she was allowed the luxury of ignoring Beato in favour of finding an answer she liked, but in Ep 6 after Beato solved the logic error the situation was reversed and she hadn't anymore the luxury of ignoring Beato. |
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2012-09-08, 18:19 | Link #30433 |
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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Yes. I kind of suspect that in EP5 Lambda let Bernkastel win in order to protect Beatrice's secret.
In EPs 1-4 the dynamic was different. Bern's goal was to win, of course, but Lambda's goal was trap Bern in the witch's game forever. There was even a point when Lambda scolded Beatrice for allowing her opposition any chance to win. And Lambda said if she were running the game she would never allow anyone a chance to win. Of course, that doesn't seem to be the case in EP5, since she let Bern win pretty easily. But if we believe that Lambda considers truly "winning the game" to be uncovering Beatrice's secret, then she played EP5 perfectly. And of course "without love". |
2012-09-08, 18:38 | Link #30434 | |
18782+18782=37564
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: InterWebs
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Anyways, ignore me. Continue with the discussion guys. Btw Renall, +1 for Castlevania reference there
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2012-09-08, 18:42 | Link #30435 | |||
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2012-09-08, 18:45 | Link #30436 |
黄金の魔女 Golden Witch
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Natal-RN, Brazil
Age: 28
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Because '[Beatrice's] cerimony will be over', that does not stop 'the revenge of the man from 19 years ago', even if we assume that Yasu=MO19YA or Yasu=/=MO19YA, then it's still possible for deaths to occur after the epitaph is solved.
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2012-09-08, 19:05 | Link #30437 | |
Guitar Man
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brazil
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碑文の謎を解けば The literal translation of this is "if solve the epitaph". The 'YOU' is just thrown in to make it sound better in a translation. 解けば = If solve 碑文の謎 = epitaph's riddle
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