2012-12-10, 19:30 | Link #31321 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
|
Yeah his theory has pitfalls, like that he needs Nanjo as an accomplice in episode 3. In fact he sees Nanjo as the ideal accomplice, which is a mistake. The only motive for Nanjo is his sick grandson, but it's said in the TIPS that the grandson has an incurable disease that you can't do much about even if you had great wealth. If he did need money I'm sure he could borrow it from Kinzo. Also his son receives a billion yen in Ange's world but doesn't even accept it.
__________________
|
2012-12-10, 19:32 | Link #31322 | |||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
|
Quote:
Quote:
What's this, the alliance between kid stalkers? Personally I can accept the Nanjo is doing it for money for his grandchild, I can swallow the George is actually insane so all those pretty words about challenging the world to be with Shannon meant actually backstabbing the world do death to get Shannon but the whole about Rosa murdering everyone to revive Kuwadorian Beatrice and because she loves Battler is... hum... I've no words... And again poor Maria gets completely ignored by her mom. Quote:
Ep 3 solution put in this way is almost comical with A backstabbing B who get backstabbed by C so B backstab him in retaliation with Eva deciding to join the culprit bunch by killing Natsuhi and Krauss (and Battler actually). Though I guess maybe the solution is more complex and this is just a summary. Quote:
Not mentioning erasing Ange's world make part of Ep 4, 6 and 8 pretty meaningless as the real Ange's destiny would be unknown and pointless to discuss over as she wouldn't be entrusted to Eva (who died) and therefore she might have been raised as the happiest girl ever... or she could hae been run over by a car the day after the incident. Quote:
I really wish he would trascript his solution though because it seems unfair to discuss it only by knowing bits and pieces of it but for a not English speaker like me listening to such a long English video would only mean a headache. |
|||||
2012-12-10, 20:38 | Link #31323 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
|
Quote:
It's a platonic and one-sided love that Rosa develops for several reasons and keeps to herself (although she does state that she misses Battler and even playfully flirts with him in one scene) Rosa wants to carry out the murders as a magical ceremony, and needs to introduce risks for the magic to work. She is also looking for people to understand her. For these reasons she wants Battler as the "detective" to try and stop her. Rosa is also a friend of Shannon's and roots for Shannon's romance with Battler. Once Shannon gives up after three years of waiting, Rosa feels guilty and, like in the meta-world perspective of ep7, "takes over" the love for Battler and starts rooting for Shannon+George instead (until deciding to kill everyone which requires betraying Shannon and George) To imagine Rosa's relationship with Shannon, consider the scenes in episodes 2 and 7, and that Rosa comes up with the fictional character that develops from Yasu to Claire to Beatrice, and finally becomes the dominant aspect of Rosa's personality. Rosa would also see Battler as Kinzo's true heir. She feels guilty because of the original Beatrice's death so she comes to treat Battler specially because of this. The love duel is explained something like this: For Rosa to fulfill her plan and to get Battler to understand her, everyone has to die and be resurrected in the golden land or whatever. She's delusional and doesn't really have a chance in this duel to begin with. George is the second culprit and his plan involves escaping with Shannon while the bomb kills everyone else, especially Battler. George is about to be betrayed by Rosa so only one of them can survive anyway, bomb or not. Kanon and Jessica can only end up together if both Rosa and George fail (either die or get arrested) Shannon+George win the duel because of Erika's influence in this game, she decapitates Rosa and shoots Kanon to death in the closet...way to go.
__________________
|
|
2012-12-10, 21:01 | Link #31324 | |||
Member
Join Date: Oct 2012
|
Quote:
And again poor Maria gets completely ignored by her mom.[/QUOTE] Rosa's motive in his theory always really bothered me. She is trying to revive Beatrice by creating closed rooms to simulate magic to get Battler into thinking there is magic? Quote:
Quote:
A couple other things to note is Rosa's motive goes into a lot more depth than what I summarized it as. I just don't feel like rewatching that part as it's probably the most boring part of the entire video (which is saying something). I really stopped caring about the motive and clues towards Rosa after he started comparing Gapp's clothes to Rosa's fashion company. All in all his theory is OK. Personally I would really like to see Ryukishi come out and say Shkanon was a lie and the actually culprit was Gohda. |
|||
2012-12-10, 21:36 | Link #31326 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2012
|
Well, Dlanor states the Beatrice was writing not two but three solutions the the mystery. The first one being the Magic solution. The second one being the Shkanon solution. Dlanor states that OC will help you find the second solution but Beatrice wants you to find the third solution on your own. In other words OC is meant to explain the Shkanon solution however the real solution is something Ryukishi wants you to figure out yourself. As far as what is in OC goes, he states it's meant to show you how ridiculous Shkanon actually is.
Last edited by Valkama; 2012-12-10 at 22:07. |
2012-12-10, 22:14 | Link #31327 |
Senior Member
|
There's a big problem with KnM's theory as far as Episode 4 goes.
In the ostensible solution, the six people killed at the first twilight would have been dead 90 minutes by the time Battler found them. The bodies would be long cold by then, and any blood would have dried to a dark red. It can't have been more than 10 minutes since he spoke with "Beatrice" outside. During that time, Rosa would have had to change out of her Beatrice costume, hide it, and kill herself. When Battler found her, the body would still be warm, the blood would still be bright red and mostly liquid. My big problem with Umineko is that I don't know what I know. There's often a scene when the detective gets a preconception early, and reexamines it at the end and realizes there never was any evidence for the preconception, or perhaps that all the evidence was ultimately single-source; once the preconception is abandoned, another option might become available. (For example, there have been a series of minor pranks; Character X mentions having learned who's behind them and is going to talk to the culprit and that the pranks will stop tonight. Instead, the pranks turn deadly with X being found dead at the site of the next prank. The protagonist implicitly assumes that the prankster is male for most of the book, but at the end thinks over the conversation and realizes that X never said the prankster was male, or used a male pronoun; the protagonist reexamines some female characters as suspects.) The scene when Natsuhi meets Kinzo simply wouldn't have been allowed in most mysteries. Natsuhi talking with Kinzo didn't happen. Showing Natsuhi recounting the events afterwards would be fine; she did say those words, even if they were untrue. In the latter case, when I start doubting that Kinzo is alive, I can reexamine my reasons for thinking he's alive ("I have only Natsuhi's word that she spoke with Kinzo."). If I do decided Natsuhi is lying, I can try to examine her reasons for lying. As Ryu did things, if I think a hypothesis may be completely wrong, I don't have any place to start. Side comment: If Battler's sin refers to hurting Shannon, then it almost has to be Shannon as the mastermind. Otherwise, you have the problem of 1) the person must know that Shannon is hurt, 2) must think that Battler is bad for doing so, and 3) didn't encourage Shannon to act on her own. Shannon didn't even tell Jessica how she felt. George and Kyrie might have guessed that Shannon was hurt, and wouldn't have encouraged her, but why would they view that as a sin. If Rosa had somehow learned that Shannon was upset, why didn't Rosa say something like "No matter how he feels about you, teenage boys tend to dig in their heels rather than change their minds. You don't have to ask him to come back, just enter a conversation. Mention a book you've just read and ask whether he's picked up any new authors." And how was she supposed to learn about Shannon? She was probably in her early-mid 20s at the time Shannon started as a servant, mid-late 20s when Battler stopped coming; she probably wasn't living on the island at that time. Why would Shannon confide in Rosa?
__________________
|
2012-12-10, 23:49 | Link #31328 | ||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2010
|
Quote:
Quote:
But your point stands - noone even seems to know Shannon and Battler had any sort of "thing", at all. At most, George noticed that they got along much better than he himself did with the servant girls. Quote:
Quote:
I'd say it could also put the EP5 parlor scene to rest, but I kinda don't even wanna discuss that anymnore. I know, right? What parts of his video I do watch make frequent mention of something like "Otherwise you say that Ryukishi ruined his OWN story with these terrible mistakes" and I'm like "This man has clearly never encountered a piece of media that you may call, perhaps, ruined by it's creators terrible storytelling mistakes." Like ... ever. |
||||
2012-12-11, 00:44 | Link #31329 | |
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
|
Quote:
Granted, to know Kinzo's personality to know that Natsuhi is contradicting it we needed to see all those other scenes of Kinzo where he's establishing his personality... none of which happened either. Damn.
__________________
|
|
2012-12-11, 01:11 | Link #31330 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Buffer overflow
|
Quote:
To apply that in this specific case, we have conflicting testimony on what Kinzo's personality is. Therefore, one of those scenes must contain a lie. The fact that Kinzo left the epitaph as a way to determine his successor sort of kills the credibility of the Natsuhi scene, so we're forced to think of why that lie was created.
__________________
|
|
2012-12-11, 01:15 | Link #31331 | |
Senior Member
|
Quote:
"While she was appealing to those who had love, her heart was also cynical and critical, full of wrath towards those who had no love." And even more: "These are her words, but I want to repeat them. In every persons heart exists love. The fact that she was unable to see this herself, that is her true tragedy." I think the first story is not only the magical narrative, but what she wanted people to see and to believe. The second story is what she wanted to imply, her confession and her wish to be found. And the third story, I think, is what she actually thought of those people, the unconscious aspect of her own writing in which she expressed all her uncontrolled emotions. What this could tell us is that "Beatrice" was neither a witch of pure evil nor an innocent maiden, but she failed because she tried to see the world in black and white. |
|
2012-12-11, 04:50 | Link #31332 | ||||
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
|
He accounts for the logic error this way: When Erika declares that she is sealing the two rooms, he calls it a magic scene since Dlanor and her subordinates are involved. He says that the process must have actually taken a little time, and before Erika seals the cousins' room, but after the location check, Kanon left through the window. He accounts for Kanon's death by claiming that Erika shot him.
He doesn't even account for the love duel. He might say he does, since he talked about it, but he really doesn't. He actually introduces the topic by saying something along the lines of "Since ShKanon is impossible, an alternative explanation must be found", which basically means he approaches the whole issue of the love duel by assuming his own premise (which, to be fair, he came to for reasons not having to do with the love duel). Of course this means that he is ignoring anything in the love duel that points towards ShKanon simply by default, which is utterly ridiculous if you ask me. He does offer an alternative interpretation (I call it that rather than an "explanation") for the duel, where Rosa's (Beatrice's), George's, and Jessica's romantic interests are all incompatible situations and therefore only one of them can "win". There are so many awkward things about this interpretation, though, and I don't feel like listed all of them (unless someone would like me to). When I first was reading Umineko, I didn't give ShKanon a second thought. While reading the love duel I was like "wtf really...how does that even work?" I didn't really want to believe it, but I had to. As far as I'm concerned, the love duel is the finisher for ShKanon and there is no room left for debate. Quote:
George's I find worse, since George doesn't even have a motive. What does mass murder have to do with him marrying Shannon? And Nanjo's motive is probably the worst. Not only is it paper thin and already thoroughly refuted by another poster here, Nanjo'd probably be better off siding with the victims and just asking for the money later anyway. Quote:
Quote:
So yeah I don't really mind about what he did with the various of the Golden Witch stories. Then again, that he dangles a bunch of 1998 stuff in front of us that we also can't rely on is pretty frustrating. Quote:
I would also like to add that Dlanor said that wanted us to get to the core of Beatrice's story as another woman. |
||||
2012-12-11, 07:31 | Link #31333 | |
Eaten by goats
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Rokkenjima
|
Quote:
It's all very impractical, given that he seems to direct people to parts of his videos and say they weren't watching them properly. |
|
2012-12-11, 09:24 | Link #31334 | |||||
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
|
Quote:
Quote:
And also he can kill children, but honestly it's not like children even count. Quote:
Quote:
Given that, can we trust what Battler sees and says in other episodes? Why or why not? Are any of the Kinzo scenes accurate summations of his personality, or are none of them (or all of them)? It's ironically easier to compare and contrast the scenes which are obviously filled with magical things going on than the ones that give off an appearance of mundanity. So I understand the frustration. The lack of any sort of especially definitive answer regarding Prime or indeed any of the basic information that someone in a theoretical Prime universe would have access to makes it very difficult to check a solution, and in the back of one's mind is always the specter of "Can I even rely on that information at all? If it turns out to be false, where does that reset my reasoning to?" Quote:
__________________
|
|||||
2012-12-11, 10:23 | Link #31335 |
Eaten by goats
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Rokkenjima
|
I think Ryukishi may have some weird ideas about women. I can't seem to track it down, but wasn't there an interview with him where he seemed to make a big thing of the depth of feeling of a woman with a broken heart. Or something like that. And on the face of it it looked like reasoning for why Beatrice would kill everyone. Strange stuff. So if he's saying that Dlanor can understand that on account of being a woman, maybe it's the same sort of reasoning. Wish I could find that interview.
|
2012-12-11, 10:40 | Link #31336 | |
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
|
Quote:
It's like he hasn't even read his own story.
__________________
|
|
2012-12-11, 10:49 | Link #31337 | |
Senior Member
|
Quote:
Another side comment: It's a big deal that nobody would mistake anything for Kinzo. At the end of Episode 2, Battler met Kinzo. How are we supposed to reconcile these two items? 1) Battler was an unreliable perspective at that point? 2) Battler saw Kinzo's corpse, and wasn't mistaking anything for Kinzo? (For various reasons, I think that his corpse had been kept in his study, in a bathtub of formaldehyde or somesuch.) 3) Ryu screwed up. Or what about the error in the flashback in Episode 5?
__________________
Last edited by rogerpepitone; 2012-12-11 at 11:13. |
|
2012-12-11, 11:01 | Link #31338 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Buffer overflow
|
Quote:
On the face of it, this opening is a story of Beatrice tempting Shannon and Kanon with the promise of love, and then laughing at them when that love inevitably destroys them. Does this mean that Yasu planned for the love trial to happen since the very beginning? Or even that she later decided the love trial was a good thing and rewrote her history to include her support of it?
__________________
|
|
2012-12-11, 11:07 | Link #31339 | |||
Eaten by goats
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Rokkenjima
|
Quote:
It looks longer than I remember it being. Maybe it's still being updated? Quote:
http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...47#post3811347 It's a weird interview. It doesn't seem to fit in with the series as a whole...So if it's the truth, I'll be studiously ignoring it and pulling the "Umineko is whatever it's interpreted as!" card. Quote:
|
|||
2012-12-11, 11:36 | Link #31340 | |
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
|
Quote:
Then again expecting the backstories of any of the magical/meta characters to make any sense is barking up the wrong tree.
__________________
|
|
|
|