[Anime] Let's explore the plot holes! And clarify some things.

[Guido]

I just can't put myself together reading posts about "the anime has went downhill after its middle run".

BONES is trying to keep a steady level of creativity without resorting to become original.
That means pulling out a completely new subplot to the story and forcefully trying to fit it within the rest of the plot, thus fatally resulting in severe plotholes, crammed episodes, no serious depth for the plot development and the characters' personalities.

Indeed, I really like the dark overtone which BONES has been directing the anime since episode 39.
Just like someone posted earlier, there's still eight episodes for our answers and doubts to be clarified.
And just in case we're left with some unanswered questions after the last episode airs, still we have a likelihood for the movie to do so.


First I go with parts about some important plotholes displayed.
Q. Why didn't the Führer(Pride) killed Al along with Martel at that time when he had clearly the chance and advantage to do so? I have three hypotheses for this plothole.
A.1 Just as someone explained before, he had made a reputation within his position as Führer that no one within the military will ever question or raise doubts upon his leadership and rule.
However, a critical flaw has risen from this assumption. Col. Mustang has ever doubt about the military's management ever since being ordered to (relunctantly) kill the Rockbells who were aiding allies and foes alike during the Ishbal war, Kimblee's reinstallation within the military ranks as State Alchemist when Mustang knew about his incendiary passions and criminal charges before and after the Ishbal war, and the closed case of Brigadier Gen. Hughes' assassination who was researching Dr. Marcoh's and Brigadier Gen. Basque Gran works involving the secrets experiments within the 5th Lab

A.2 By killing Martel, the Führer (Pride) wanted to give Al an only warning or ultimatum: "You're now too involved within this matter, so leave it immediately at ease before going any deeper, or you might regret it"
He didn't said it rather implied it to him, likely that he was threatening Al.
However, the Führer overlooked a serious flaw in that ambush. He took for granted that Al would have cowered down in deep fear or ended traumatic from that experience enough to forget about what Martel had revealed him and what he had discovered about the Führer.

A.3 It was "that person" order to him not to hurt Alphonse Elric.
Highly illogical. Although it's true that the Führer took his time chasing after Martel, there's no evidence that suggests or points out that maybe and just maybe Sloth could had appeared before the Führer at that moment and reported him the master's orders not to touch the kid. Besides, before Martel ambushed him, the Führer had ordered Kimblee to get rid of Edward. He knew that both brothers were becoming potential threats to their plans, so why should he eliminate one brother while sparing the other?

Of all possibilities for this plothole, choice A.2 sounds the most convincing to me.

[gangsta905_04]

does ne1 wonder if archer will be transmuted into a chimera, since tucker is somewhere out there??

[Rattus]

- So depending on how picky you want to be, you can go with Spear or Halberd.

Cool, "Ultimate Spear" definately seems more apt, what with the piercing and all. (Must...resist....easy......penetration....joke!) :O

And for Sloth, her WHOLE body becomes water (damit even her homunculus costume). What the hell? Our whole body is not made of water, although most parts of it, she can't possibly morph into a pile of water. It goes against the laws of alchemy (in this anime).

Uuurgh, THINK for a second before the squealing starts; is it not in the realm of possibility that she disassembles her cells, and moves the insoluable parts around INSIDE the water.. there's absolutely no reason to assume that she goes 100% water. -_-


A2 option- since the homunculi seem to be pretty devoid of humanity and remorse, there's no reason Bradley should care about warning off Al... everything nice he's done for Ed and Al in the past is now shown as a sinister behind-the-scenes nudging towards the philosophers stone, or trying to make things easier for them to persue it anyway. Especially since Sloth's "kill them if they get in the way" order, I doubt if Pride would be that concerned with Al's wellbeing (assuming he is 100% free-range homunculus).

[Zauren]

What if Pride was personally ordered not to kill them, so he sends someone else instead by 'them'? He's obviously not enjoyed some aspects of those orders, and Lust has shown they can go against them to at least some extent.

[Yebyosh]

Originally Posted by Teh Dave

Unfortunatly, I think Yebosh's judgement is clouded by his FMA Manga > Anime Bias:

Yes, I totally agree with you on that But then there are holes in the manga that I can point out too However they mainly deal with real nitpicks and not glaring plot failures.

Originally Posted by Teh Dave

1: On the subject of Bradley, I'm afraid the anime has revealled too little about him to making these kind of assumptions. As of Ep40, it appears that someone DOES design the homonoculus. As Ed says "They wouldn't survive for long in that form". It is then highly likely that their master rescues them, then gives them their abilities. Greed may not know Bradley. He knew of a Pride before he was sealed, but as has been seen before, "Sins" can be replaced. He may not be the same Pride Greed knew. Finally, it looks to me like the anime will take the same approach to Bradley as the Manga does (ie, a homonuculus designed not too age). It's already been shown in the anime that he has a wife, so his family unit is probably the same as it is in the Manga.

Uh no... when one says design a Homunculus, it means, he draws up a draw of what a Homunculus is supposed to become, gets the materials and creates it. The product should then be what he had envisioned. The anime has already proven this to be not the case for them.

To dreamless, on Wrath. Like I said, he is special in the anime. He is way different from the rest of the Sins. With his former body as a component, his characteristics would be different from them as well. The other Homunculus comes out at the age at which they are made.

Originally Posted by Teh Dave

3: It seemed quite obvious to me that Bradley dispatched Martyl incredibly quickly. In ep40, it was portrayed slowly for drama, but from Al's point of view, he'd have just seen a short flash of Bradley and his eye, then him seathing his sword. It could be considered more bad direction than a plot hole, but I thought it was handled pretty well.

Sorry, though that's what everyone would like to think, that is not the case. It was done in real time. Case reinforced by the speech segment by Martel. Unless she speaks at chipmunk pace, that time she took to speak indicates a slow stalk instead of a dash.

To Guido, you had a good case going (good reasoning) except like Rattus said, for Pride to have the orders from 'that person' then to kill the Elrics if necessary, and thus for him now to spare Alphonse in a situation where there's only him, Martel and Al, and that Al might likely get wind of his true identity (which Pride showed him anyways), is stupid and contradictory in nature to the Homunculi.

Originally Posted by Teh Dave

4: Archer. As I said in another topic, it's possible that the activation of the array took everyone beyond the gate, the philiosopher's stone was created, and the excess "parts" were then discarded. Going by past events, this seems highly likely.

5: Alphonse as the stone. As you said, it's probably still incomplete. Ed also warns Al from causing alchemic reactions, as he doesn't want him to dissapear. This implies that Ed believes the philospher's stone to be an expendable object instead of a permanent one.

If the toll was fulfilled, the stone cannot be incomplete, yes? So why did Archer survive if the stone was incomplete?

What has Ed thinking the Stone to be expendable to do with this? On this subject, Ed is actually confused on what the whole mess means. He does not know what that flashback is all about and fails to understand the whole situation with Al. He is deadset on eliminating his mistake (Sloth) and as such has no time to ponder and reason out the case with Al. Thus he worries that the reaction between them might have unknown effects, e.g. Al rendered into a unthinking Philosopher's Stone. Rather than dealing with any more problems, he would rather not cause it and deal with it later.

Originally Posted by Teh Dave

6: On the subject of the Chimeras, I'm pretty sure it was mentioned somewhere that they didn't resemble humans at all until Tucker had fixed them up himself.

Prove it. They didn't say one thing about this. Don't forget, it is not just about the Chimeras. It's about the soul grafted armor suits too.

Originally Posted by Teh Dave

Some good points are raised, but I think you're being a tad picky. Looking for plotholes where there may be none. Half the time, your plot holes require as much imagination to define as they do to fill.

The plotholes are there without need for imagination. They only need seperation from created expectations filling in the obvious gaps, to see them. Animes do have plotholes (I doubt that there are many where plotholes don't exist). This thread is for the purpose of exploring them. It is not for comdemning the series or such.

[Teh Dave]

If the toll was fulfilled, the stone cannot be incomplete, yes? So why did Archer survive if the stone was incomplete?

It's entirely possible that a "complete" Philosopher's Stone is nothing but a myth.

Sorry, though that's what everyone would like to think, that is not the case. It was done in real time. Case reinforced by the speech segment by Martel. Unless she speaks at chipmunk pace, that time she took to speak indicates a slow stalk instead of a dash.

Actually, she said her piece before Bradley exited the building.

Uh no... when one says design a Homunculus, it means, he draws up a draw of what a Homunculus is supposed to become, gets the materials and creates it. The product should then be what he had envisioned. The anime has already proven this to be not the case for them.

Yes, but someone may still, in some cases, be taking the failed transmutations and giving them specific abilities. After all, Wrath has no "Homonuculus" type abilty other than his alchemy, which comes from Ed's limbs.

Prove it. They didn't say one thing about this. Don't forget, it is not just about the Chimeras. It's about the soul grafted armor suits too.

Thar you go. No argument on the armour mind you.

[avmoghe]

I shall respond to this thread more fully after the series ends, when I'm given all the data that the series has to offer. I think its a bit premature at this point.

I will say however that it would be foolish of Pride to kill Al when he came across him. He has come across the brother of a state alchemist.... in broad daylight, out in the open. If anyone among the soldiers or staff that the military has at the base sees him hurt Al at that point, his game will be up.

I do not think he has the authority to order Al to follow him, since Al isn't even a part of the military. Of course, he cannot arrest him either.

I have watched the episode again, and I have seen his eye open very slightly to see where he needed to insert the sword into Al's armor. After doing that, he closed his eyes again. When he utters his final line with a smile, his eyes remain closed. I don't think anyone can say with absolute certainty that Pride knew Al had seen his eye.

I will return to comment about the ages and the other "plot holes" after the series finishes and I have a better understanding of what the plot was about. (For example, I consider it highly probable that Archer was saved due to Ed's intervention.. the anime has a habit of skipping scenes and showing them later as flashbacks.. Much like they did with Mustang calming down the Ishbal mob)

More later.

[Lunas]

for crying out loud do you have to pick every little thing apart it is an entertaining show and i dont care about the problems.

[wolfi_1412]

Originally Posted by Guido

A.3 It was "that person" order to him not to hurt Alphonse Elric.
Highly illogical. Although it's true that the Führer took his time chasing after Martel, there's no evidence that suggests or points out that maybe and just maybe Sloth could had appeared before the Führer at that moment and reported him the master's orders not to touch the kid. Besides, before Martel ambushed him, the Führer had ordered Kimblee to get rid of Edward. He knew that both brothers were becoming potential threats to their plans, so why should he eliminate one brother while sparing the other?

if the answer is A.3, then it means the master have to be Dante/Lyla, because I think I heard Dante said 'poor Alphonse-kun' or something (again, it's my memory, correct if wrong)....

or it could be Hohemheim (doesn't wanna hurt his kid), coz if Hohemheim is the master, he knws about Trisha becomes Sloth and about Al becomes a suit armour

[Yebyosh]

Originally Posted by Teh Dave

It's entirely possible that a "complete" Philosopher's Stone is nothing but a myth.

Then Alphonse is lying right at the start. But as said, an incomplete Stone by reasons would keep consuming and consuming till all materials were consumed. There's no need for Archer to remain alive.

Originally Posted by Teh Dave

Actually, she said her piece before Bradley exited the building.

Episode 41 02:56 - 03:00. Is that Bradley outside the building while Martel's still talking or what?

Originally Posted by Teh Dave

Yes, but someone may still, in some cases, be taking the failed transmutations and giving them specific abilities. After all, Wrath has no "Homonuculus" type abilty other than his alchemy, which comes from Ed's limbs.

That would really be a far-fetch but I will keep this in mind. That is only in regards to special abilities. It does not explain how Bradley can get into the army after 100+years, and age naturally while becoming Fuhrer without anyone noticing.

Originally Posted by Teh Dave

Thar you go. No argument on the armour mind you.

Yes there is. The fansub is wrong. That is from episode 33 07:56-07:58.

Mr Chimera: "俺達キメラを治せるのはこの先生だけだからな。"
"Ore tachi chimera wo naoseru no wa kono sensei dake dakara na"
Literally: "me pals chimera can be healed matter, this doctor is the cause"
or to hear it fluently "That we can have medical treatment is thanks to this doctor, right."

If you are looking to "change back to original", "restore", the word is 復す or 復す (fusu/fukusu), thus the sentence with "he changed us back" instead should have been
"俺達キメラを復したのは....."
"Ore tachi chimera wo fushita/fukushita no wa...."
which was not what the Japanese dialogue had said.

Chimeras need healing, they cannot go to a real doctor which would readily see them for what they are on careful medical inspection. Hence the need for Tucker.

To avmoghe, Pride didn't open his eye slightly. He opened it fully (for whatever reason). He didn't close it back either since the next frame was blood.

And Pride does have a good excuse to kill Al then, like I said in an earlier post,

Originally Posted by Yebyosh

Why didn't he kill Al, then come out with a story of "Oh, the vermin chimera skewered poor Alphonse Elric. It is a pity that I was too slow to come out and kill her to save him. Alas, pity my poor aching bones..." It is too illogical, even to any genius or standard evil villian, to let Alphonse leave with information that can prove ruinous to the plans of the Homunculi.

He was alone with Al & Martel. If as someone says that no one would doubt Pride's words, what is to stop them from believing the sentence above while finding Pride in the courtyard with the corpse of Martel, knife in hand and the broken armor of Alphonse?

[Teh Dave]

Japanese isn't my forte, so I can't dispute that. Anyway, Bradley's reason for not killing Al at that point would likely be that he has in the past appeared to be quite fond of him and at that moment, he didn't really know that Al knew anything potentially damaging.

The manga has shown Bradley to be one of the more human-esque Homonculii (divided loyalties between his purpose and his family has the potential for interesting plot developments), so it's not inconcivable that he just plain quite likes Al. Sure, he gives Roy and co permission to kill him in Ep43, but that's after he's become a very large risk indeed.

[Yebyosh]

Originally Posted by Teh Dave

Japanese isn't my forte, so I can't dispute that. Anyway, Bradley's reason for not killing Al at that point would likely be that he has in the past appeared to be quite fond of him and at that moment, he didn't really know that Al knew anything potentially damaging.

If I have to show my secret weapon that no body knows directly in front of someone, I would be really really have negative IQ to think that he notices not a thing. And to let my secret be known to an accomplice and give her time to run off and rat it out?

Originally Posted by Teh Dave

The manga has shown Bradley to be one of the more human-esque Homonculii (divided loyalties between his purpose and his family has the potential for interesting plot developments), so it's not inconcivable that he just plain quite likes Al. Sure, he gives Roy and co permission to kill him in Ep43, but that's after he's become a very large risk indeed.

As already stated right off the start, the manga should not be used to explain the machinations of the anime since the anime is following BONES's plans and not Arakawa-sensei's plans. If Bradley was Wrath in the anime and he was not even known by Greed and is only 60 years old and the Sins were not created by accident, then there would be a case to perfectly correlate the two materials. But unfortunately, no.

[Teh Dave]

As seperate as the Anime and Manga are however, the Anime still continues to borrow heavily from the Manga even at this late stage. Due to this, possible corralations between the Manga and Anime can still be made i'm afraid.

[Fei-san]

Just noticed a little thing, not a plot hole but more like, about a person
In episode 43 Colonel Mustang say something like
"they cant go near the water"
then somebody say
"because of Al's blood seal?"
BUT if u remember he has already taken a few baths Oo
one in the beginning when Ed just got his automail and they sparred
and another time when they are on the island. Al start catching fish in the water Oo
sooo
Al should be dead if his blood seal cant resist water Oo
which it since episode 43 cant.

[Migs]

They might only be assuming the blood seal is the reason for staying away from the water when it could be the Philosopher's stone.

Or its another hole.

[Lunas]

Originally Posted by Migs

They might only be assuming the blood seal is the reason for staying away from the water when it could be the Philosopher's stone.

Or its another hole.

or mustang is just dumb but in a alchemic way

blood contains alot of iorn thusly ed prolly fused the blood to the armor so it will intentionaly need to be rubbed out

what would be more likely to damage it. Would be the blood inside al that was there from martel as dried blood will disolve in water but not as easily as it will in more blood.

i know this from experiance as i have had my share of injurys involving cuts that the blood got on metal...... one that comes to mind was when i was carrying a old computer case home and a sharp piece of metal made a nice 1 in gash in my wrist blood went every where in that case.

[Yebyosh]

Ah, thank you Fei. It is an interesting little gaffe.

J. Alphonse, the Landlubber?

Facts:
- Alphonse has a blood seal.
- If the seal is gone, his soul will longer be joined with the armor and he shall 'die'
- Conversation in Episode 43 (16:55 to 17:05)
~ Armstrong : They couldn't have gone far
~ Mustang : Because Alphonse cannot afford to be 'stained' with water, right.
~ Armstrong: It's that blood seal, right...

Consider:
- The conversation implies that while the stream can be waded across, Roy and gang knows Ed and Al won't dash directly across it because Al would get wet. They deduce the Elrics would be continuing along the river banks till they can find a 'bridge' of some sorts.
- Alphonse got dunked in the lake in Episode 03 (21:00). Ed cares not one bit.
- Alphonse stands in the lake and comes out spewing water in Episode 28 (09:16 to 09:30). Ed cares not one bit.
- Alphonse stands in the rain in the whole segment before the OP of Episode 13. Ed cares not one whit. (However one can say that his helmet might be a snug fit and let very little or no water to go inside)
- So can Al go into the water or not?!
- And as Lunas put it, how did they clean Alphonse up without rubbing out the blood seal? Or is Alphonse still bloody inside...

Possible Explanation:
- Mustang and gang were misled over the blood seal and water. However, why didn't Ed and Al cross the stream directly? In fact, couldn't Ed just alchemise a small land bridge across the stream? Izumi could form a dam, Ed at this time should be as powerful as his sensei.
- Inconsistency in the manner the blood seal is handled.

Plot hole severity: Average, it doesn't really affect the plot but can be puzzling.

Originally Posted by Teh Dave

As seperate as the Anime and Manga are however, the Anime still continues to borrow heavily from the Manga even at this late stage. Due to this, possible corralations between the Manga and Anime can still be made i'm afraid.

Borrows heavily, at which stage are we at now that is still perfectly recognisable in the manga without modification? In the begining of production, they had available manga material to produce their episodes ahead of time so they can maintain a degree of fidelity to the original source. Do you expect them to have finished an episode right on the day of broadcast?

They finished an episode weeks/months ahead of its broadcast for editing/quality assurance/censorship approval. Knowing so, you can guess that they have already run way ahead of the manga's progression at an equivalent schedule, as well as the fact that they have to follow their own seperate plot/conclusion decided at the start.

In other words, as they go along, they fit in what they can like a last minute "Hey, I can adapt this in, let's throw it in now". Episodes 50 & 51 have likely been finished by now or are in the final stages of editing.

Would you expect the Xing fellas to come in now? Do you expect Barry the Chopper to reappear? Do you expect Maria Ross to be framed now? Is Bradley 60 years old (No, because by Greed's recognition, he's 130+).

If anything, blame Greed's big blabbering mouth :P If he never put Pride as 130+, Fuhrer being Pride can work.

Additional Clarifications

5. Map of Amestris

Facts:
- The Map information is actually gathered from the Manga books.
- Ishuvaru is the only city/state which I left in Katagana.
- Size of cities are estimates

Spoiler for Map of Amestris:

Episode 44 tomorrow.

[Guido]

I have another plot hole which everyone overlooked and didn't bothered to bring it forward.

K. Homunculi real or not?

Facts:
- In episode 22 Greed broke free from his prison.
- Several human chimera broke free from the 5th Lab.
- The chimera joined Greed, and he took them as his subordinates.
- Established their hideout in Devil's Nest bar.
~ From their escapade in episode 22 until the military forces raid on Devil's
Nest in episode 33, there was plenty of time for the chimera to notice
Greed's Uroboros tattoo on the top of his left hand.
- In episode 34 Greed along with Roah, Dorchett, and Martel fled to a hidden
cottage in the woods. Al was still held hostage while Martel was hiding
within him. Then Lust and Gluttony paid them a visit there.
- In episode 38 Ed and Al met Martel. She said she'll avenge Greed's death
going after Kimblee first, and then after those guys in black.
- In episode 40 Martel ambushes the Führer upon learning his plans to rid of
Ed.
- The Führer reveals his Ultimate Eye to her. An Uroboros Tattoo on his left
eye.
- In episode 41 Al recalls Martel's last words before dying. The Führer is a
Homunculus.

Consider:
- Roah, Dorchett, and Martel were the most loyal and closest subordinates to Greed.
- They have plenty of time to notice few details about him.
- Lust and Gluttony arrived to either capture Greed or annihilate him.
- The chimera get to know Lust and Gluttony.
~ Martel who was hiding inside Al, likely must had given a good peep to them enough to notice Lust's Uroboros tattoo above her chest.
- Unless either Martel had brought forward the subject about his master Uroboros tattoo or Greed ever taken the bother to explain his subordinates about his self when having lots of time before the raid to Devil's Nest, how can Martel assumed that the Führer was a Homunculus and confessing that revelation with a self convincing attitude to Al?
- Or if Greed had bothered to explain to them that he was Homunculus, wouldn't Martel immediately jumped to the conclusion that both Lust and Gluttony were Homunculi just like Greed by looking at Lust Uroboros tattoo. Then why she meant to Lust and Gluttony as those guys in black in episode 38, and later realizing that the Führer's identity to be a Homunculus after he revealed her his Ultimate Eye in episode 40?

I'm puzzled with this revelation. Please Yebyosh enlighten me with your ever growing wisdom.

[wolfi_1412]

It might be because they are his loyal subordinates to Greed because Greed free them from the cage and stuff, so I guess it didn't really matter to them

[avmoghe]

Originally Posted by Yebosh

Why didn't he kill Al, then come out with a story of "Oh, the vermin chimera skewered poor Alphonse Elric. It is a pity that I was too slow to come out and kill her to save him. Alas, pity my poor aching bones..." It is too illogical, even to any genius or standard evil villian, to let Alphonse leave with information that can prove ruinous to the plans of the Homunculi.

Good excuse? The excuse isn't the problem. The problem is he came across Al in broad daylight, out in the open, in the middle of a military base. They aren't in the secret room where they met at that point.. they are exposed.

If anyone SEES him kill Al, his game will be up. If it was a secluded place, then yes I agree. But the problem is that the location where Pride and Al met was anything but secluded.