Clannad ~After Story~ - Episode 22 Discussion / Poll [END]

[Ascaloth]

Originally Posted by Master Chibi

Fuck the town.

Bad doggy.

[Master Chibi]

Originally Posted by Proto

You. will. die.

This summer, JUST WHEN YOU THOUGHT IT WAS SAFE TO REDEEM YOURSELF, THE TOWN WILL MAKE YOU THINK OTHERWISE.

DON'T PISS IT OFF

CLANNAD, AN EXPIERENCE IN HORROR

Coming June 29th in select theaters; rated NC-17, must be accompanied by a parent.

Originally Posted by Ascaloth

Bad doggy.

[Leo_Otaku]

Okay just wanted to post this

Didn't like the ending?

Wanted something else to happen?

Like Tomoyo?

Wait for Tomoyo After ....

After thinking about it as a non viewer I can see how some parts didn't quite make it as clear as the game. But no show can please everyone. Some saw the hints others didn't and so on...

The movie about if it was all a dream well I have seen this done before and would almost seem like a 0_o seriously. It just isn't what KEY does.

As for Hisaya's writing I was not impressed with Sola one bit it seemed like he stayed on more some of the ideas for AIR if you ask me when you first got into it. Perhaps he will make something more? Or maybe the manga is better?

[Daniel E.]

Originally Posted by Master Chibi

This summer, JUST WHEN YOU THOUGHT IT WAS SAFE TO REDEEM YOURSELF, THE TOWN WILL MAKE YOU THINK OTHERWISE.

DON'T PISS IT OFF

CLANNAD, AN EXPIERENCE IN HORROR

Coming June 29th in select theaters; rated NC-17, must be accompanied by a parent.

The spiritual sequel to Silent Hill?

[Ryuou]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

If one has to have played the game to understand why the ending of it's anime adaptation doesn't suck - that means it sucks. If it can't stand on it's own, it fails, period.

Although not to this harsh degree, I also agree that the anime has to be able to stand on its own to a degree. Which I don't believe the anime does very well.

Originally Posted by Myssa Rei

It's an actual plot point. Kotomi's explanation actually makes sense more in the game, as each 'route'

Spoiler for About Parallel Worlds:

is an alternate world running parallel to each other that Tomoya's consciousness has to go through in order to learn lessons of Family, Friendship, and Love (and the fact that the Town was NOT to be insulted), as well as to get through the pain of Nagisa's loss, and eventually realize the fact that the Family he found with her he couldn't continue existing without (at the same time appeasing the Town's 'contract' with Akio), with the Illusionary world tying them all together (as it's where all the Light orbs go to).

I like this explanation. And so the problem I have with the ending and the rest of the series subsequently is that I don't think the anime did a very good job presenting this. That's probably in large part because...

Originally Posted by Divini

...I've identified the nagging feeling I had when I first saw ep 22.

The problem is that there is simply an inherent problem in the adaptation of stories that rely on requiring the observer to go through multiple paths to have such an ending take place in an anime that shows only one path. It's not that it doesn't take away from the explanation of the said ending, it's just that within the constraints of showing virtually one timeline in an anime, it is difficult to fully grasp how the ending came to be in only one view. (being a total Clannad virgin if you will)

Yes, the anime did devote a considerable amount of time to the illusionary world. Also, the anime placed CONSIDERABLE hints and references to the true meaning of that. In my opinion, it is enough to explain how the 'True End' was made possible in episode 22. The problem is that it showed the real explanation of the IW in a very short time, so in retrospect that makes the link between Ushio and IW Ushio not as prominent as it should have been. In addition this is shown only at the very end of the anime, and moves very quickly through it leaving the viewers with not much time to absorb the whole situation, and is then abrupty shown the True End in a short moment. This alone, is enough to detract the anime viewers empathy and understanding towards the IW.

There is another big factor though, and that is the adaptation of merging all the paths into one timeline as it is in the anime takes away I think one important aspects of the IW; That it is more seen as just a parallel universe to that particular time, rather than a world that is linked by many different alternate timelines that could have been, as it was in the VN. So during this final episode, when IW Ushio mentions to IW Tomoya that he will be "closing his consciousness and awake in the other world, where he will meet many people, and that he exists in both worlds" makes quite a bit of sense in context to the VN. In the context of how this anime plays out, however, it INDEED looks like a simple reset since it seems that there is only one real timeline, with a fateful, snowy day (AS ep 16) being the only difference.

Since this is NOT a VN, the anime viewer is left to wonder what was the purpose of episodes 17-21, whether it really happened, whether it was only a dream, whether or not it mattered at all, and this is what has led many astray to call the ending a "cop out" or "reset" or "deus ex machina". Yes, I know the whole concept of family, of life, and of bringing others happiness, which brought about the miracle... and that what happened post-Nagisa's death certainly DID matter... but it also my opinion it takes a very perceptive person to see ALL of that if you are just watching the anime, and as stated before, I blame this on the inherent problem of adapting such a story into a one-timeline anime. Tragically, it really, really takes away from the full enjoyment of the story.

Very fair reasons behind the problems we have with the anime's presentation, but excuses nonetheless, which imply faults.

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by Master Chibi

This summer, JUST WHEN YOU THOUGHT IT WAS SAFE TO REDEEM YOURSELF, THE TOWN WILL MAKE YOU THINK OTHERWISE.

DON'T PISS IT OFF

CLANNAD, AN EXPIERENCE IN HORROR

Coming June 29th in select theaters; rated NC-17, must be accompanied by a parent.

Yeah really, it does kind of sound like the premise behind a horror movie when you think about it in those terms.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Master Chibi

This summer, JUST WHEN YOU THOUGHT IT WAS SAFE TO REDEEM YOURSELF, THE TOWN WILL MAKE YOU THINK OTHERWISE.

DON'T PISS IT OFF

CLANNAD, AN EXPIERENCE IN HORROR

Coming June 29th in select theaters; rated NC-17, must be accompanied by a parent.

Somehow Zombie Fuuko might be the first step in horror.

[fish eric]

i just got done watching the entire two seasons over the last 3 days. im really glad i didn't discover this show earlier because i hate waiting for each weeks episode.

after story is one of the best animes i have ever seen. in lovely complex they got married and had a kid also, but this show had soooo much more emotional depth to it. i cried many times watching it.

the one part that didn't settle well with me was when Tomoya was being mean to ushio. its one thing to run away from your child/life/responsibility/sadness but to actually be mean to her seemed really out of character for Tomoya. Especially when his dad was like that to him.

Also in the first season is dad ignored him and treated him badly. in after story he is suddenly super tosan? im not sure i caught all of that. its like he went to the field of flowers and suddenly remembers everything differently.

10/10

[Justin Kim]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

The "time travel" is only partly correct. The reason why episodes 16-21 are important to 22 is that Tomoya doesn't just go back in time, but skips dimentions to another world, one of the worlds Kotomi was talking about. Without the pain and joy he experianced Tomoya would have repeated his mistake of thinking things would be better had he never met Nagisa. With the acceptance of family, the good and the bad, and he can accept his own happiness without thinking that by not getting involved with Nagisa he'll cause suffering. That was what was stopping him before. He was thinking that himself getting involved with this girl would cause her and her family unhappiness and not meeting Nagisa would be for the better.

What he realized later, via Ushio, is that family is happiness for Nagisa and her family, and Nagisa's happiness was larger than he thought when he gets the concept of family as she saw it. In going back in another universe to the point where she might die (the scene at the bottom of the hill in this case can be used as a metaphor for their souls as she is dying) and calling out for her, grabbing his own happiness that he denied himself, he gets his wife back.

The miracle is the crossing dimentions in some ways, where the revival of Nagisa, (what is suppose to be the miracle) could be seen as Tomoya making a choice and is entirely in his hands.

Tomoya had sworn to save Ushio no matter what. He fails...sort of. Ushio, as the town/Illusionary Girl gives Tomoya the chance to save Ushio. However if he's gone with what Akio had done for Nagisa, the same pattern probably would have happened, with Ushio living on borrowed time. Instead Tomoya goes back and confronts his own failure to accept happiness as is with all the strings attached...and by doing so saves both Nagisa and by extention Ushio. He also provides a better life for Ushio in doing so. Tomoya kept his promise to save Ushio no matter what. It just took him longer and caused him more pain to do it. With his acceptance of that pain and the joy that was possible, he was able to save his daughter and as a reward he's given Nagisa to share Ushio and provide the town with even more happiness.

Wow Itherko's post really cleared things up about the story. Considering the fact, that I never realized when he was holding Nagisa in his arms - that he was in actuality, holding the other dimension within him. That the happiness was bound by two dimensions in which Kotomi was talking about. I didn't realize that. But I am still happy that Tomoya picked the right choice, considering he may have just left it at that feeling guilt. No wait, actually guilt was what caused him to be sort of saved. He realized that at one point, his values were related to how much happiness he obtained throughout his life, and how much he helped others according to THOSE values.

[Joe_fh]

I'd say that was a great ending to a great story.Can't really understand what is confusing about the end.If you have watched everything you should understand what happaned in the end even without playing the VN ( i haven't)
And for those of you that didn't get it Tomoya died just after Ushio died.So that is what i call a really sad end....the whole family died...( in that world ).I'm really glad they actually didn't end it there.I mean who would want to see such a tragic end.(ok don't answer that)Life is hard but not everything has to remaind us of that,everyone wishes for happines.And to create a family wich you love from the bottom of your heart and be happy that is a miracle in itself
Ok on with the sotry.He than went back to the illusionary world where he met Ushio.( but he didn't know that was her)Both Clannad and AF both cover that part of the story.
And after that he was back in the begining(I think he didn't go back to when Ushio was born and Nagisa died,but he whent back to the day he met Nagisa..and Clannad begun.If you actually think about it he knew about that story and so did Nagisa(remember in ep22 when they met at the bottom of the hill?She knew that was him,so i think they were both in the illusionary world at some point but they both forgot about that.But when it got to the point where Nagisa was giving birth he remembered everything,that's why he cried,because in the paralel world she died.."but nothing will remain unchanged" as Nagisa said...and there you have it .He understood the importance of family and he was ready for the sorrow in life because the time he spent with Ushio and Nagisa was really precious.And maybe as a reward for that both Nagisa and Ushio were alive in the end.

[ShatteredSkys]

Well I'm also done with the ep. and I got mixed feelings about the end
I completely misunderstood what happened,for example that Tomoya should die in the end too =/
There are kinda different interpretations of the end, and I am really confused right now.

Anyway,I really liked the ending scenes, especially the one with Tomoyo in the sunset
For sure Clannad is one of my favourite animes of all time, it really deserves a place in my heart,Key really knows how to mess with ppl's feelings i would say ! xD

And err... what with those hints?? Yeah im very disoriented with all this, maybe someone could explain it clearly =/

Damn it, I'm sure this stuff is going to take my sleep -.-

[Sorrow-K]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

You're missing the point.

Tomoya has to do this in order to appease the town and free Nagisa and Ushio from the cycle of suffering.

Appease the town? Didn't Klashikari cover this almost ten pages ago? No one had to appease the town, it was essentially trying to keep Nagisa and Ushio alive, but didn't have enough power.

If you consider the town as a divine force which is good, but essentially powerless, suddenly it becomes a lot more consistent. There was a real ambiguity about how the city was portrayed in Clannad After Story, unfortunately, and it's not hard to come to the conclusion that it was an omnipotent, yet incredibly vain and vindictive divine force (not unlike the monotheistic "God" which is commonly worshiped in Western culture) that was toying with Tomoya just because it really hated him for some reason. But I think it makes a great deal whole sense if you think about the town as something which was trying to save Nagisa and Ushio, but couldn't... until Tomoya could gather the light orbs which gave the city enough power to grant Tomoya's last wish.

I really think the anime could have done more to portray this with more clarity. Because there was so much ambiguity around the nature of the city, it's not hard to arrive at an interpretation which renders Clannad After Story's ending as "cheap".

[fish eric]

The ending reminds me of the ending of the movie the devil's advocate.

Spoiler for devil's advocate:

where at the end he goes back to where he had to make the critical choice in the court house bathroom not to defend the killer/molester guy

[Ithekro]

Someone asked why not just letting Tomoya continue on at the end (either with a miracle of Ushio living, or with her dead) would be considered bad. To be honest I have no real answer for that. It wouldn't be bad per say, it just won't be as good.

I imagine some of the meaning and themes would be lost if Nagisa wasn't put back into the picture. Since one theme seems to be around the larger concept of happiness of the town as a large extented family (the old proverb that it takes a village to raise a child), and ending that brings even more happiness would be the desired goal. With Nagisa living, Tomoya gains his own happiness, which he denied himself. Nagisa gets her happiness via Ushio and Ushio gets her happiness from her father's love and his happiness. Thus the three of them are connected...remove one and things are not as happy. Remove two (Ushio dying) and happiness, while not totally lost, becomes harder to grasp.

Maybe Tomoya could have gone on with his life after Ushio died...by it is doubtful considering how much of himself he was willing to invest into Ushio. He might have been able to accept the good and bad of family, but because of who he seems to be, he wouldn't remarry. He had his family and would cherish what he had, but he wouldn't try to start a new one at that point...not if he had accepted his own happiness as being Nagisa.

Tomoya could have gone on with just Ushio, but that lingering pain would always be there. The person that meant everything to him was still gone. Plus there is that chance that Ushio's condition may have become just like Nagisa's. Instead of the strong girl she was before she fell ill, she'd become the weak, sometimes sickly girl that would get a fever every winter. Basically repeating the cycle rather than breaking it. Would mean that she too might die in childbirth before Tomoya or even Akio and Sanae's deaths. Repeating the cycle, while valid, it not an optimal solution to the problem.

Thus filling the void...allowing Tomoya to embrace his happiness and keep it, brings more happiness and thus what the town itself would wish for.

At least that is my take on it.

[Nosauz]

After rewatching some of AS, like episode 14, I feel like the theme of family was brought out more so than anything, and home and family are closely linked. Like the town is Tomoya's and Nagisa's home where their family resides and its importance to the cohesiveness of the family is important, because as the town changes the the families change but still under the boundaries of the town they are all one large family. Which is why tomoya's interactions with the other people of the town allow for this miracle. Its as if the collective happiness of town and tomoya's "family" bring about this instance of pure unadulterated happiness.

[fish eric]

Originally Posted by Nosauz

After rewatching some of AS, like episode 14, I feel like the theme of family was brought out more so than anything, and home and family are closely linked. Like the town is Tomoya's and Nagisa's home where their family resides and its importance to the cohesiveness of the family is important, because as the town changes the the families change but still under the boundaries of the town they are all one large family. Which is why tomoya's interactions with the other people of the town allow for this miracle. Its as if the collective happiness of town and tomoya's "family" bring about this instance of pure unadulterated happiness.

i didn't notice that connection before, but now that it is mentioned its almost obvious.

[Freya]

Originally Posted by Sheba

Somehow Zombie Fuuko might be the first step in horror.

Roflmao. You'll be laughing in terror.

[Fishman]

I think Fuuko is a great comic relief character, the problem is there is too much of her, it is like when you ask your friend for a chip and he gives you the whole bag, it gets to the point of extreme annoyance in the anime. Half of the first season was about fuuko and her stupid ass starfish, and then they suddenly forget about her and the story continues, the anime is entertaining, and sometimes invokes emotion save the last episode, but nowhere near the realm of 10/10.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Fishman

Half of the first season was about fuuko and her stupid ass starfish

Typical hyperbole espoused by people who dislike Clannad.

She only had like 6 episodes devoted to her. So one-quarter of the show.

Also, Fuuko is Ai Nonaka and love. How dare you insult her.

[Ithekro]

I'd say it more tactfully if possible. Fuuko's arc was fairly long compared to the other arcs in the first season of Clannad, plus some people didn't like how she's come out of no place and break the tension of a scene. But to be honest I found every one of her appearances post-episode 9 to be funny. I can recall a total of five "Fuuko Ninja" moments.
First at the festival with Kotomi...crane game. Silly scene to start with just made it funnier.

Next her two attempts to stop fights involving Tomoyo...the first one she realized she's made a mistake and left, the second time she failed (STARFISH HEAT) but it was funny, plus the tension came right back afterwards.

Then there was the dreaded, multiple girls cooking for one guy scene. Fuuko breaks the tension, but pulls off the humor perfectly to make the scene even funnier than it was without a cat fight breaking out between Kyou and Tomoyo. (the little scream at the end of her list of starfish themed foods plus Kyou's reaction shot sold it, plus Buton/Kotomi reaction combos, and finally, "Besto Choice!").

Then the final time we see Fuuko before she wakes up in After Story...the love charm scene that is suppose to be with Nagisa...the Fuuko Master handled the wayward spirit well and got us a Thriller moment on top of it.

After that we get her for only three episodes of After Story. As the show became sadder and sadder, people were starting to ask, what happened to those day of Fuuko lulz? Fortunately we got some much needed humor back into the series before the end. (Nuclear tights?)