(L+CR) Golden Time

[musouka]

Originally Posted by Arturia Polaris

So how do you know this is NOT her manipulation plan 2.0 revisited after Yana-san?

What would Kouko gain at this point in time from pretending to be in love with Banri? It's been six episodes since they started to date and there hasn't been a single hint she's still romantically focused on Mitsuo.

Originally Posted by Arturia Polaris

Remember how she freaked out about the whole condom thingy? How she wanted it to be in Paris and stuff like that?

Kouko wanted it to be in Paris because seeing the condom scared her half to death. Paris is far, far away and would take a good bit of savings to get to. Most importantly, it was absolutely impossible to get there that night. It was a way to provide a buffer between her and the idea of sex. As she's gotten more and more comfortable with Banri, she's made it known that it doesn't have to be "in Paris", because the idea of sex is no longer frightening to her.

Originally Posted by Arturia Polaris

Her obsession to control everything is pretty much there all the time, even after finding the picture. She had to take a break for a week to meditate things (See, Linda isnt the only liar) and decided that she knew what was best and she decided to keep everything a secret from Banri while secretly controlling him.

Kouko had to take time off to try and get herself together emotionally. When she had her breakdown in front of Banri, that was a sign to her that she still wasn't ready to face him and Linda. As she told him, she wanted to be cute in front of him all the time, not a messy, crying bag of insecurities. It had nothing to do with her being manipulative, and everything to do with her trying not to fall into a pattern that would drive Banri away and hurt Linda.

[playmaker2k]

Originally Posted by Arturia Polaris

I just think that her whole attitude now is her old self empowered by her old mistakes, but that is my bias I guess.

She learns from her mistakes and works on fixing it while someone else remains the same and only makes things worst for keeping secrets.

I think the problem is that most people see the worst in Kouko and don't acknowledge her growth as a character after episode 4.

It's so locked into people minds that she's an unredeemable monster that anything she does won't matter anymore.

Kouko changed a lot, but she still has certain tendencies but keeps them in check.

She was quick to apologize to Banri for throwing a drink at him and slapping him.

(On a side note: I've never been slapped, but I'm pretty sure most women won't apologize after doing that in IRL. )

The old Kouko wouldn't apologize to Mitsuo. The rose slapping scene says it all.

Linda's a fine character, she just needs to learn to be honest and stop being wishy washy. Whoever she's with will always suffer for her actions even if it wasn't on purpose.

She's still stuck in the past but she can fix that; unlike Emo Ghost Banri who just needs to go.

Stop crying, it's unsightly!

Be a man and wipe your own tears like Gamagoori.

[MasterVampire]

Is there going to be an episode next week?

[playmaker2k]

I think we're having a two week break.

14 days.

336 Hours.

20,160 Minutes.

Spoiler for my reaction:

[NoemiChan]

Wtf!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Even Koko will be furious!!

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by playmaker2k

I think we're having a two week break.

14 days.

336 Hours. [...]

There are two weeks with no episodes, which means actually (as someone pointed out earlier) that it will actually be three weeks until the next episode airs. But, oddly enough, it looks like the show may be moving to one day sooner beginning in the new year. The next episode is scheduled to air on MBS at 2:50am on Thursday, 9 January. (I'm still wondering if this is a mistake actually, and it will really air on Friday, 10 January per the old schedule, just delayed 15 minutes. We'll see.)

Edit: It is a mistake. It'll air on Friday, 10 January at 2:50am JST.

[Flower]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

There are two weeks with no episodes, which means actually (as someone pointed out earlier) that it will actually be three weeks until the next episode airs. But, oddly enough, it looks like the show may be moving to one day sooner beginning in the new year. The next episode is scheduled to air on MBS at 2:50am on Thursday, 9 January.

Is there another single ep or two ep series or such airing in it's "normal" slot that week or something?

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Flower

Is there another single ep or two ep series or such airing in it's "normal" slot that week or something?

Yeah... honestly, I think it's probably a mistake, but time will tell... I can't find the date change on the official site or anything, but perhaps something was listed at the end of the broadcast itself on that channel.

Edit: Yeah, the official website still lists it on "Thursday late-night at 2:35", which really means Friday morning at 2:35. It's probably just confusion from this silly "25-hour clock" thing.

Edit 2: Yup, it's definitely a misunderstanding. The MBS broadcast said "Next episode will be broadcast at 2014-01-09 (Thursday) late-night at 2:50.", which really (contrary to what it seems to say) means Friday morning. Way to be confusing...

[ellessarr]

Originally Posted by playmaker2k

She learns from her mistakes and works on fixing it while someone else remains the same and only makes things worst for keeping secrets.

I think the problem is that most people see the worst in Kouko and don't acknowledge her growth as a character after episode 3.

It's so locked into people minds that she's an unredeemable monster that anything she does won't matter anymore.

Kouko changed a lot, but she still has certain tendencies that she keeps them in check.

She was quick to apologize to Banri for throwing a drink at him and slapping him.

(I've never been slapped, but I'm pretty sure most women won't do that in IRL. )

The old Kouko wouldn't apologize to Mitsuo. The rose slapping scene says it all.

Linda's a fine character, she just needs to learn to be honest and stop being wishy washy. Whoever she's with will always suffer for her actions even if it wasn't on purpose.

She's still stuck in the past but she can fix that; unlike Emo Ghost Banri who just needs to go and cry all the way to the pearly gates.

Stop crying, it's unsightly!

Be a man and wipe your own tears like Gamagoori.

then you dont know womans from my country, what koko did i can call "soft" compared with what womans here can do... something like closing the party and call the cops, ofcourse we have also cry babys who just run crying crazy and few who just wait their get to home to start the war and bla bla bla

koko apologize make banri feel even worse cuz he was aware he diserved this, we see he "dogesa" after he hear her apologize, because he did a very horrible thing(i challenge any person who is true in love and was worried about his love missing(she dont send any message, is not in home, simple disappear) and find him in a party in a very compromising position, almost kissing another girl who you is aware of her being a potential rival", just put yourself on her place and say if you will be "calm" or "nice" about the situation) if you gonna like to see your girlfriend or boyfriend doing the same after being desperately looking for him/her.

indeed looks like some peoples really have a so deep hate on koko who are unable to see her changing or thing everything she does is wrong,

the messages indeed she sended too much for a non possessive person, but she not was wrong to send, if i'm aware of my girlfriend or wife is busyng working or study and she asked for some free time (without being with me) and when i try to talk to her by cell and dont get any message or answer i also gonna start to worry, this is a normal behaviour not only koko but any other person will do this specially since she is aware of banri and linda and if peoples dont forget what happened, he was injured and near the first episodes both them get kidnapped, then not will be strange she worry about him dont asnwer bitch less please.

i was trying to be neutral bu after see some post(specially @artira) i can't hold and remember some important things:

- not was koko who started the relationship, was BANRI, he was the first one to fall in love, was banri who forced koko to accept the relationship, not was koko, and he accepted her as herselfl, is selfish ask for someone to change for you if this not a really wanted change for the other party, you must remember in the same way you can ask her change, she can do the same for you

- love is not about change but accept the person as he is with all the good and bad parts, if you can't burden with the behavious then you dont really love the person

banri make very clear who he loves koko as she is, who he is aware of her jealouss and possessive and this dont bother him, then this not koko fault we can't blame someone while the other side dont do this and like this.

if not was for koko banri could "died" trying to jump again in a bridge

like peoples keep point koko is try to change, she still very jealouss and possessive but we see her working on it, remember how she was with mitsui, how he need to keep hiding everytime and every day from her, and how now she let banri have is privacity????

she is the character who most really try hard to fix her behavious


now go to "perfect linda" the VICTIM, she actually is the most broke character from the triangle, she is the one who dont try to work on her behavious she stopped in time and not trying to move.

is fine a person lying to, the person she likes???? is fine she lie to friends?? or to herself??, from a psychological point of view between linda and koko linda is the one who diservers more treatment, linda unlike koko dont try to acknowledge her behaviour or work in her, she just keep being the same over and over, and hurting, herself and others peoples around, this is not a "victim", the true victim here is banri


now banri for me in the first time of my life i see a anime/manga/ln japanese mc who i find very hard to blame unlike the girls, because for the first time i see a writer come with a really awesome excuse for the mc can make mistakes and you can't full blame him or even rage over him, since his problem is a psychological problem, he is not a chickening mc not a deny, tsundere, indecise, he have a mental problem who created a type of split personality, them make really hard at last for me full blame him, since i see him sincerely trying to move with his life, he sincerely loves koko(the current one) we see who he accept koko as she is and really dont want lose her, however he have another side who just turned some sort of grudge, who can't accept who his past is over and his love for linda is lost, this side of him is what i can blame since this side is desperately trying to get back and stirring trouble with his life.

one side of banri really act like i see real guys acting in a real world(his current one) being decided and not "runing from girls"


my order of problematic or gulty
1 - linda for living in lies and hurting everyone with this
2 - koko for being too much possessive
3 - gasper banri the annoying ghost, for messing with current banri life who if not was for his meet with linda in the university in the first day, maybe he can be living a really good life, without that "annoying other side".

[whitecloud]

Mannn...there are some people in this forum that outright call koko obsessive, then let me ask you then what would you do in koko's shoe then, yor loved one is god knows where, after tell he will be at home? After that add second situation you find him/her in a party with an old flame or crush in a nice position? Then would you still call koko manipulative or obsesive, insecure then?

Plus i agree that linda still stubborn somewhat, just like in the past like in her brother case, refusing to budge, in her defense she might think it for banri she keep denying it she love him, but it actually just making thing worse for both of them

[kaigan]

uhm, i don't see the reason to even compare linda and kouko atm. the show thus far is about banri and kouko. despite the story being about banri's life, kouko shares the most screentime.

as banri's love interest, we expect kouko to share some sort of connection to him. so the "changes" or the build up of her character. are there "real" changes? are these changes good? for what reasons? her motivations to throw away 17 years of life, 90% of her heart to the 10% unknown? how much of her old self remains? is she still acting the largely the same?

love is not about change but accept the person as he is with all the good and bad parts,

if kouko is feelings toward banri is love, did she accept him as him? is she not asking him to change his feelings? no demands? no changes? what are the underlying emotions in this so-called 'love'?

if not was for koko banri could "died" trying to jump again in a bridge

she's not there to save him from "dying". he's contemplating about linda and doing a restart. maybe he entertained the thought, but i don't remember he's showing signs of on the verge of jumping. what's her reason to follow him there and crash the stolen bike? fear? insecurity? she asked about linda-senpai before banri shouted behind his back and ran away.

how now she let banri have is privacity????

how to you define privacy exactly? when the "realtor" called banri, she pushed her face towards the phone to hear what the call was about. she opened the box, she's not suppose to open, despite banri's protestations. she took away the picture in the bookshelf without telling the rightful owner. or if we are engage in a relationship, private space doesn't exist anymore?

now go to "perfect linda" the VICTIM, she actually is the most broke character from the triangle, she is the one who dont try to work on her behavious she stopped in time and not trying to move.

how can be so sure? linda is not even a fraction of kouko's exposure. how do you know she's locked in time? we don't know what's running inside her mind? what we know about her are just snippets from old banri. the linda from high school. do you expect linda to stay the same now in college?

while there's all praises for kouko's rapid "change" in a matter of days, what we know of linda? there's even a 1-year time skip that linda didn't appear while banri's in hospital. is it possible that she experience changes as well?

if we assume that linda was so passive back in high school, how do you explain the "aggressive" linda initiating the contact and shadowing banri. she even asked a very private question if kouko is his girlfriend on the 2nd meeting. are these changes or not?

edit:

3 - gasper banri the annoying ghost, for messing with current banri life who if not was for his meet with linda in the university in the first day, maybe he can be living a really good life, without that "annoying other side".

please don't hate him. the ghost should had not appear if kouko did not reject him or gave him a hopeless responce. he was depressed and went soul searching, which he shouldn't have done. because we was already prepared to severe his old ties. but feeling dejected, he went home and discovered something.

even after meeting linda, banri has low or no impression of her. it's safe to say, linda doesn't matter to him because he's in love at first sight at kouko already. linda started to come into the picture because of the picture. guess what started it?

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by kaigan

as banri's love interest, we expect kouko to share some sort of connection to him. so the "changes" or the build up of her character. are there "real" changes? are these changes good? for what reasons? her motivations to throw away 17 years of life, 90% of her heart to the 10% unknown? how much of her old self remains? is she still acting the largely the same?

I've said from the get-go that it wasn't a good time or idea for Kouko to get into a relationship, and even she knew that. But now that she's here, what more can we realistically expect her to do other than try to recognize her faults and temper her bad habits (which Banri was certainly well-aware of when he confessed in the first place)? And from a narrative perspective, what is gained for her showing this self-awareness, only for the story to then turn around and be like "sorry, she hasn't changed at all; psych!" They wouldn't have to show her struggle with this inner tension if it meant nothing.

Trying to throw away her obsession with Mitsuo is the only thing she could do. The fact that she ended up throwing herself at Banri instead certainly raises up warning flags, but at least she's aware of her issues in a way that she wasn't before, and not in denial about it. Maybe it's only baby steps, but it's something.

Originally Posted by kaigan

if kouko is feelings toward banri is love, did she accept him as him? is she not asking him to change his feelings? no demands? no changes? what are the underlying emotions in this so-called 'love'?

Many books have been written trying to explore this topic alone and all the many reasons people fall in love with each other. Obviously, we know that Kouko has a co-dependency problem, and has a tendency to place her identity in other people. Her reason for agreeing to go out with Banri certainly had an element of that to it, despite that also being a reason why she had rejected him at first. But, being aware of that tendency, I don't think that means that they can't make things work. If all relationships rely on having good underlying emotions at the start, then I think there'd be even more relationship failures than there already are. What's more important is facing crises together and overcoming them.

The demands about not having a job were unreasonable, and I think she realizes that. The request to not dwell on his past is selfish on the one hand, but also has his best interest at heart given how it's troubling him. And her desire for him to only look her way is not so unreasonable if they are to be in a committed relationship. You can frame all these things as evidence of some sort of overriding controlling behaviour, but it's not as if all such behaviour is unreasonable. Even the 60-odd text messages; given his recent injury and illness, and given that he wasn't at home like he said he would be, she had legitimate reason to be worried for him.


In the end, as I've said so many times, this story has no perfect people. Kouko's many flaws were laid bare right from the very start of episode one, so there's no pretending they don't exist. But I don't think trying to ascribe the worst possible of intentions and motivations for her is any more fair than it would be if someone tried to do the same for either Linda or Banri. They're all trying, and they're all making mistakes. It's a show all about the decisions and emotions of highly flawed and fallible people.

[Kakurin]

Originally Posted by Arturia Polaris

I'm pointing out that Kouko's face turn in about 6 episodes just shows how little she felt for Yana-san or how little she actually feels now for Banri. I'm under the impression that she is more in love with herself rather than another person.

Agree with the first about Mitsuo. With Mitsuo it was about a childish obsession that needed to get rooted out. Though Mitsuo probably waited a little bit too long, he in the end slammed the door quite hard on her and forced her to reflect. Completely disagree about that second. While her tendencies are still present, she is not only willing to improve herself, but also cares about Banri in a way that was absolutely not present with Mitsuo. As for the last, once again completely disagree. Kouko is an incredibly fragile character and she knows that herself. A person who is in love with him or herself isn't in that much self-doubt and insecurity as Kouko.

Originally Posted by Arturia Polaris

So how do you know this is NOT her manipulation plan 2.0 revisited after Yana-san?

You can't blame other people for thinking you are unreasonably hating on Kouko if you write something like this. To revisit, what does "manipulate" mean? According to the Oxford Dictionary:

control or influence (a person or situation) cleverly or unscrupulously:the masses were deceived and manipulated by a tiny group

It is pretty baseless to accuse Kouko of being like that. She wasn't manipulating Mitsuo. She just followed her plan and frankly lacked any care about Mitsuo. That was selfish, unreasonable and immature. But not manipulative. She wasn't influencing him in a clever or unscrupulous way, nor was she deceiving him. She just completely disregarded him as an independent being.

With Banri such an accusation is also baseless. She didn't flaunt her beauty etc. in front of Banri. In fact she showed Banri her pitiful side. Don't forget, it was Banri who confessed to her the night after Mitsuo put an end to her year-long obsession. Kouko rejected him and wanted to take it slowly because she doubted herself, whether her feelings were earnest. It was Banri again, who accelerated that process when he asked her to stop being friends. And even after that she didn't immediately storm after him, it was after that fallout with Linda when he ran away that she went after him.

Originally Posted by kaigan

please don't hate him. the ghost should had not appear if kouko did not reject him or gave him a hopeless responce. he was depressed and went soul searching, which he shouldn't have done. because we was already prepared to severe his old ties. but feeling dejected, he went home and discovered something.

Are you seriously accusing Kouko of being responsible for Banri's mental condition? First of all, that "ghost" has always been there with him since the accident (just rewatch the beginning of episode 5). Even without Kouko it's not unlikely that his old self would start reappearing in surges. Besides, you can't fault Kouko for rejecting him in that situation. He confessed to her the night after she was put down by Mitsuo. What would the Kouko critics be saying if she right then right there would have accepted his confession (and I couldn't fault them for the most part if she agreed back then)?

[kaigan]

I've said from the get-go that it wasn't a good time or idea for Kouko to get into a relationship

agreed too. everything seems to move too fast for their own good. doing things without much thought or sorting out their feelings first could contribute more problems than solve anything.

Are you seriously accusing Kouko of being responsible for Banri's mental condition?

truthfully, no. to each his own. banri's state of mind, emotions are his. same for kouko. he has clear goals - to start a new life and love someone with all his heart. he is dead straight for kouko for whatever reasons. he took the mitsuo's rejection as an opportunity to start outright a romantic relationship or to uplift her spirits, only one can guess. but the sure thing is, he's dead serious to take kouko as his.

did he do the right thing? are they ready? what are the intentions to engage now - immediately after mitsuo's rejection? have banri thought of receiving a rejection himself? he seems impatient. just how long were they together? days? weeks? is he expecting truly a "yes"?

kouko has her own issues and quite surprised by this. she actually immediately left his room. she texted him and he doesn't look happy.

kouko decided a rejection. for banri it hurt him. could he have been more sensitive to kouko? how would he know? is kouko looking pitiful at him enough to know the real kouko? banri brought this to himself. he seems to be too hungry for kouko and pounce an early attack, that you mentioned is a very fragile character.

that said, kouko's rejection is the last straw that what appears made his initial infallible goals crumble. where to retreat? he hopes to find peace in his hometown.

the ghost is just a spectator all throughout early in the series. even when linda and banri met the first day, he didn't show any signs of recognizing her that i remember. did the "ghost" do something? none at all. the immediate event that made him appear was the rejection. if he was not rejected, would he appear? maybe i should have said "manifested" instead? the confusion in his heart, the surprise existence of linda in his past made banri unsure, uncomfortable and hesitant now.

what about his former goals? he began to search for the lost past that he consciously severed already. his feeling for kouko wavers. linda who is nobody (he can't even remember the name right and if without the make-up) until the picture discovery slowly creeps into his heart. the audience is now aware of the "ghost".

[ArrowSmith]

Banri is one lucky dude. Either he gets Koko or Linda. F'in bastard.

[AmeNoJaku]

Originally Posted by ArrowSmith

Banri is one lucky dude. Either he gets Koko or Linda. F'in bastard.

I am surprised that the fact that he is two-timing hasn't put viewers into a raving rage... even worse he constantly pretends to be the victim... dunno, if it was a different writer, I would expect a "nice boat" ending

[Arturia Polaris]

I think that's mainly because people consider old banri and new banri different persons.

I also expect a nice boat later on, but whatevs.

[ellessarr]

Originally Posted by AmeNoJaku

I am surprised that the fact that he is two-timing hasn't put viewers into a raving rage... even worse he constantly pretends to be the victim... dunno, if it was a different writer, I would expect a "nice boat" ending

Originally Posted by Arturia Polaris

I think that's mainly because people consider old banri and new banri different persons.

I also expect a nice boat later on, but whatevs.

exactly this, the writer on this serie was a genius cus he pull a really good excuse who make hard to hate banri, it's not like he can't be blamed sometimes, like in this episode, what he did was wrong and need take the blame here, but having a sort of split personality, make hard to keep puting blame or hate on him, since we se tecnically 2 guys fighint each other inside the same body, one want really want love koko while the other also want love linda and none of them want both girls, each side want his own girl, this is what make hard to blame him, is more easy blame his old past aka ghost banri than banri for what is happen now.

banri is suffering from a mental issue caused by the accident, then his brain/mind is in a pain and trying to "fix" the broken parts but "fixing" then this start to bring the side who currant banri dont want have back, current banri dont want his past he want live in his present have a new life but this is a hard task once is part of his body work try to fix what is broken even if he dont want.

for me is much more easy blame koko or linda than him, ofcourse if along the road current banri keep doing that mess like he did now obvious he also is gonna start to share the same blame of his past since both of then start to become more and more one person again along the time.

i believe who in the end we gonna get a final showdown inside banri of both sides to see which one will be the living, but since this is a love story about banri and koko(if you want linda go play the new vn and maybe can have her route) i believe who in the end even his old self will find who his true love is koko and finally will pass away like a good ghost and stop being gasper banri the annoying ghost.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by AmeNoJaku

I am surprised that the fact that he is two-timing hasn't put viewers into a raving rage...

Having mostly-repressed feelings for his former crush isn't "two-timing". He's tempted, but has shown himself able to fight those temptations and generally try to do the right thing.

One of the few things that puts me into a "raving rage" is when people bring up "nice boat" in stories where it makes absolutely no sense, like this one.

[ellessarr]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Having mostly-repressed feelings for his former crush isn't "two-timing". He's tempted, but has shown himself able to fight those temptations and generally try to do the right thing.

One of the few things that puts me into a "raving rage" is when people bring up "nice boat" in stories where it makes absolutely no sense, like this one.

yep this is why i really like banri which unlike the big marjority of others empty clichês mc which just "dont do nothing" and keep following(and doing the same mistakes over and over and over without show any real progress or desire to change) with wind, he is much better and really act like a guy from his age is supposed to be doing the things(excluding the ghost side).