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[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by maplehurry

Seriously... ? Who does that?

I am really out of touch with European politics...

You're out of touch with this very thread...

[Mr Hat and Clogs]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Eh, Germany tried to rule the "world" (actually they tried to rule Europe). Britain did rule the world in the practical sense and yet we don't bash them for it (much).

Well, Brittan didn't kill civilised westerners when making their empire (for the most part), just pesky natives and uncivilized savages. Unimportant folk .

[maplehurry]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

You're out of touch with this very thread...

tl;dr

[Solace]

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

There is an issue though.

Banks do not want to lend small amounts (i.e preferential lending) and microloans are not micro enough; without payday lenders those people in need of credit yet do not qualify for credit cards will have to scrounge elsewhere or default.

The PROBLEM is that payday lenders use this as a gimmick to charge whatever they want, they are no different from loansharks in the end.

There is a need to draft some sort of regulation, and then there is the problem with lobbyists and pro-liquidity economists (as many avenues of money flow in the domestic market as possible to strengthen the dollar, and thus the economy!).

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

they do serve a niche that the tradition banks and credit unions don't serve.

The niche they serve is to prey on the poor. No sane bank is going to refuse someone with good credit and sufficient income a small loan (less than 1k), and there are plenty of credit card companies willing to offer similar deals. The market for payday lenders (or whatever term you want to use for "short term loans") is people who are in desperate need of money immediately that have nowhere else to turn to. This traps the customer in a cycle of debt, because they most likely will not have the money to pay the loan back before the extremely high interest rates become too crippling to manage.

It's a predatory industry, and even if you could find a way to regulate it, the inherent business model is still built on taking advantage of poor and desperate people. It's on the level of dead peasant insurance and the funeral industry taking advantage of grieving families.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Solace

The niche they serve is to prey on the poor. No sane bank is going to refuse someone with good credit and sufficient income a small loan (less than 1k), and there are plenty of credit card companies willing to offer similar deals. The market for payday lenders (or whatever term you want to use for "short term loans") is people who are in desperate need of money immediately that have nowhere else to turn to. This traps the customer in a cycle of debt, because they most likely will not have the money to pay the loan back before the extremely high interest rates become too crippling to manage.

Exactly, they have nowhere else to turn to. So what's going to happen if you take that away? Illegal mafia loans backed by leg breaking?

[Solace]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Exactly, they have nowhere else to turn to. So what's going to happen if you take that away? Illegal mafia loans backed by leg breaking?

It's barely a step above that.

It's an issue with poverty, regardless. The industry itself is more a symptom of that problem.

[SaintessHeart]

This is a dated post, so bear with me.

Top Financial Experts Say World War 3 Is Coming … Unless We Stop It




Live blog and video of Janet Yellen’s first day of testimony before Congress

The Dow, Nasdaq and S&P are all rallying.

[ganbaru]

Euro zone backs Greek aid extension, seeks clearer reforms
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/...0LR0ZX20150224

Obama to decide soon on troop levels in Afghanistan: Kerry
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/...0LS1TE20150224

One in three Germans say capitalism to blame for poverty, hunger
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/...0LS1AI20150224

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by ganbaru

One in three Germans say capitalism to blame for poverty, hunger
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/...0LS1AI20150224

Meh, history shows that that is not the case, and I had lectures for the last semester, which showed why that is, in an economic sense.

[Dextro]

All this talk about debt reminds me of this episode of CrashCourse US History on The Great Depression:

YouTube

https://youtu.be/GCQfMWAikyU

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

Meh, history shows that that is not the case, and I had lectures for the last semester, which showed why that is, in an economic sense.

I have strong doubts about this "study", which was done by the "SED Forschungsgruppe" at the FU Berlin. The FU Berlin is already notorious for being more than just a bit left-leaning, and the "SED studies group"... my. (The SED was the party running Eastern Germany before the reunification).

There were other findings in the same "study" which were plain ridiculous, like 50% of Germans refusing the state's monopoly on the use of force. Completely absurd.

For me this smells like a sensationalist bogus "survey" intended to garner popularity/visibility for the SED Forschungsgruppe.

[maplehurry]

Originally Posted by Mentar

I have strong doubts about this "study", which was done by the "SED Forschungsgruppe" at the FU Berlin. The FU Berlin is already notorious for being more than just a bit left-leaning, and the "SED studies group"... my. (The SED was the party running Eastern Germany before the reunification).

There were other findings in the same "study" which were plain ridiculous, like 50% of Germans refusing the state's monopoly on the use of force. Completely absurd.

For me this smells like a sensationalist bogus "survey" intended to garner popularity/visibility for the SED Forschungsgruppe.

In this article though, it's mentioned that the poll was done by Infratest dimap polling agency, which is supposed to be a well-known polling agency in Germany ... ?

It's certainly possible that the client "SED" might have done some cherrypicking, and I would like to read through part of the study to examine its validity, but it's going to be in German so that's that for me.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Mentar

There were other findings in the same "study" which were plain ridiculous, like 50% of Germans refusing the state's monopoly on the use of force. Completely absurd.

Wait, what? What are they supposed to want, militias fighting each other?

[maplehurry]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Wait, what? What are they supposed to want, militias fighting each other?

Batman, spiderman, Kickass etc.

[SeijiSensei]

Some information on payday loans and other consumer issues from my friends at the National Consumer Law Center: http://www.nclc.org/issues/payday-loans.html

[AmeNoJaku]

Originally Posted by Mentar

Fair enough. I'd like to extend an olive branch of my own. I do hope that the negotiations will be successfully concluded, and that Syriza will get 4 months to prove themselves. After all they HAVE won their election. Who knows, maybe something good will come out of it. If so, I'd like it.

I am glad we can get back to normal discussion mode

As for the four months, the Greek left have to prove themselves, it's a fair deal, considering the circumstances. Should they succeed even a little into tackling the corruption and decelerating the humanitarian crisis, it would be not just more than what has happened over the past five years with the "troika" supervision, but even more than what those non-radical-left parties have done since democracy was restored.

I really hope they will succeed, so other parties in Europe will strengthen, and we can reverse this downward spiral that started in '92.

Originally Posted by Mentar

About "problematic" opinions: Trust me, I do know where you're coming from. Look at it from my perspective: I was born 34 years after the end of WW2. Still, you're continuously living with the Nazi "taint" which unsurprisingly is laid on the table whenever someone else feels it to be politically beneficial. Nowadays, it's completely en vogue to blame even those problems which I consider to be 90% self-afflicted in nature on Germany or Europe. The specter of "Germany trying to rule the world" is being waved around in every corner, even though the German population couldn't care less about that. If there was a magic fairy at the corner who could make Greece, and the Ukraine, and whatever other problem pops up disappear to la la land, 95% would immediately ask for it. We don't see them as something we want to rule, we see them as nuisances and problems that should please go away and leave us alone. I can positively assure you that there is no secret illuminati cabal behind Merkel pulling her strings, and she has no interest in regional hegemony either. But having the same stereotypes repeated again and again and again has a comparable effect to "Greeks are...". I should know better, but my anger sometimes overcame the inhibition of reason. Sorry for that. I'll try harder.

I have spend 6 years in Germany, both studying and working. I understand very well how the average German feels, as well as why. But that said, in a union-to-be, that is not enough, and while I see why you can get offended with specific wording, you should also understand that other cultures have similar issues. For example, the statements from Shauble and Jaeger were worded similarly to SS directives from the occupation era. Obviously that was not their objective, and most Greeks that have spend anytime there can understand this. But this is the same issue, when Greeks raise claims concerning the debts most non-occupying countries forgave to Germany after the war to let the people breathing room. Unfortunately, I can understand both and more, and that is why I face-palm at hardliners like Schauble and Varoufakis... and thankfully others have intervened to bridge the gap, so the Greeks can have a chance to build up some trust, while Germans gave them finally a chance to do so.

Now cultural experiences aside, Germany as the leading economy and the only beneficiary of the crisis is the government everyone looks at for leadership and direction. Should the government not reassess its circumstances and assume that role, falling back to internalising continental issues is a problem. The war ended ~60 years ago, and it's about time Germans can look back at it critically and not with fear of French, Russian and English populist reactions. On a lesser extent, these spectres are what sustains neo-nazism there.

Finally, sorry for being very raw in my wording. It is somewhat difficult to put everything in a politically correct wording, while still exposing the full extent of an argument.

PS: I hope that I will be able get back to other points of your post soon. This is the quality I really want in a discussion, and I am glad we achieved it... now I looking forward to the rest of the posters in this otherwise thought-provoking thread to become a constructive discussion, independent of the conclusions each of us individually can reach

PS2: Thanks for the "Greeks are..." clarification. I really try to distinguish between stereotypes, average mindset, political party directives, and internal factional tactics within them... but obviously, I do not always succeed

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Wait, what? What are they supposed to want, militias fighting each other?

Maybe I'm using the wrong term here, I've been looking it up in directories. In Germany, there's the term "Staatliches Gewaltmonopol", meaning that the state has the monopoly on the use of force. De facto the police, based on laws.

The study that the other results have been taken from claims that 50% of the sample size (which was claimed to be "representative") rejected the Gewaltmonopol. People who refuse to acknowledge the Gewaltmonopol tend to be hobby revolutionaries of the "we resist the oppressive state and incinerate cars and put graffiti at the wall as our way of resistance".

I consider it absolutely inconceivable that 50% of the citizens really reject that. This is a result that I could imagine from political sciences students of the FU Berlin, but not from "normal" citizens.

==> Either the wording indicates something entirely different, or the chosen sample is non-representative.

[AmeNoJaku]

Originally Posted by Dextro

All this talk about debt reminds me of this episode of CrashCourse US History on The Great Depression:

YouTube

https://youtu.be/GCQfMWAikyU

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

I also follow that channel, but be warned the staff is Europe-hating, not as in crusades were a bad thing, but in justifying barbarism from jews and muslims against each other as well as everyone else, based on half a millennium old colonialism, while ignoring the local circumstances that followed, the correctly condemned colonial states of that time.

[Solace]

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

Some information on payday loans and other consumer issues from my friends at the National Consumer Law Center: http://www.nclc.org/issues/payday-loans.html

The mention of the repeal of usury laws in that entry is very true. It's astounding to me how quickly we went from New Deal regulations right back to rampant deregulation and an economy a breath away from complete collapse again.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Solace

The mention of the repeal of usury laws in that entry is very true. It's astounding to me how quickly we went from New Deal regulations right back to rampant deregulation and an economy a breath away from complete collapse again.

It's because of the entirely unsubstantiated faith in the Invisible Hand. An Islamic concept of divine economics (That originally claim that Allah actually control the price of goods, and that government price control is blasphemy) that got plagiarised by Adam Smith and used to claim that the market shouldn't have any laws at all, and that it would function best if left alone.

Note that many Americans absolutely do not doubt the existence of the Invisible Hand. Guess that's what happens when one is already religious; it is easier to believe in another god when you already have one.