Madoka Magica - Episodes 11 & 12 Discussion/Poll - Final Episodes!

[Kagayaki]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

I'd argue it depends on what a work is trying to be. If it's something like Arnold's "Commando" then it is simply trying to be an action porn flick. Some suestions for you, though: Have you seen the movie "The Last Airbender"? Would you consider it a good movie? Would you say that people are just trying to find flaws in it? If you haven't seen that movie, how about Twilight? Is it a good movie?

A lot of people have spent time discussing (and making fun of) Twilight. And roundly trouncing The Last Airbender, using it as the butt of jokes. By that criteria, both were rousing successes, then? Something can be talked about, and still have issues.

I've never seen Twilight or Avatar, and I've never tried to discuss them with anyone. I just don't think that they're things I can personally enjoy, so I haven't invested time in watching them. That makes me unqualified to judge whether or not they're actually any good though.

I wasn't trying to equate popular with good, in case you were wondering.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

And you prevent a fallacy, since even if something is 100% unambiguous, there are still lots of things to talk about. There are series on this forum that aren't nearly as ambiguous, and you still have people talking about them. At the very least, discussion on what is to come and how it might affect the characters in the current leg of the story, leaves much to talk about. Mysteries that and hints at the future, that are left to discuss. Even discussions as simple as who could take who in a fight.

In short, judging by the small criteria of whether it makes people discuss, or how much ambiguity there is, are false measures of judgment.

I never meant to argue that ambiguity is good in and of itself. Perhaps I was a little unclear. Ambiguity is not the goal of writing, and niether is popularity. The goal of writing is to make the people who do decide to watch or read your work think about it.
And I don't think that's a small criterion at all.

I mean, there's a reason why Evangelion is so widely influential. Every time it comes up, there's a discussion about it. I don't think you can argue that Evangelion is not ambiguous though.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

The whole point was, they didn't ask. So we don't know how Kyube would have responded, do we? You could of course rationalize that Kyube would do half-truths again... while ignoring that he was incredibly forthcoming about soul gems, when he damn well knows it makes girls not turn out well. He had a strong incentive to tell a half-truth... and yet he didn't.

I don't understand why they should have been led to that question? There was no real good correlation between mahou shoujo's origins and a witch's origin. It was merely said that if you can say mahou shoujos are born from hopes and desire, witches are born from curses. When they already saw witches as something completely alien and monstrous, there is no natural lead up between the two. The answer was cryptic, but presented just enough of an explanation such that it's not exactly all that questionable at that point.

I don't even think a lot of the viewers here questioned that line when they saw that episode, why would the girls necessarily do so? Again, what reason do the yhave to be so dubious in the first place?

Originally Posted by Kaijo

And that naivete is the whole problem I have with the show; it's way too much. Even among those who shouldn't be naive (Homura, Kyube), we still have idiot ball passes. You recognize that is there.

No I don't recognize it as idiotic. You still present no good reason to be so dubious. Like I said above, not even all the viewers were dubious of Kyube's story, so why should they be? What I ma getting at here is that you're imposiing your own will on the show. "I would've done this," or "I could've done this," and then using that to paint this stuff as objective flaws. People act differently and see things differently. It's not that they're idiots, just like many viewers didn't pick up anything in this scene when they first watched it, the girls didn't either. Are you going to call the viewers idiots too? You just seem to refuse to acknowledge that people may very well act a different way you would have.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

She can attempt to fulfill the request in her own way, and still be an idiot. The ideas you put forth here aren't mutually exclusive. If you didn't want a really good friend of yours to be tricked, what would you do? Would you tell them about the scam coming up and warn them to be on the lookout for it, telling them all about it? Or would you start beating up people at the company/gang/etc thinking that you just need to kill everyone so no one is left to hoodwink your friend?

Like I said above, why must you impose what "you" think should have or could've been done, and then proclaiming if they don't act that way, they're being stupid, when often times your approach is grounded in mere speculation? If you're trying to paint objective flaws here, you need better, more sound reasoning than "I think A should've been done, so clearly they're all idiots."

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Being naive isn't part of a deconstruction, since there have been other magical girls who were naive (generally secondary characters) in various ways. The degree of which, is what's on trial.

I think Nanoha for example is extremely naive many times. What would've happened if Fate was an actual villain? She'd be dead very early in the series.

The girls are no more naive or dumb than the viewers who didn't notice it either early on. I recall there being a lot of discussion in episode 3 about whether or not there was a reason even to even dislike Kyube's actions. If the viewers were not even even thinking that (And a lot mind you), why would you say they're ultra naive?

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Generally speaking, a court won't convict on scant evidence that can be taken in other ways. Let me put things another way:

"Man will never fly in the clouds! Look, the Wright brothers only got a short distance above the ground for a few seconds; there is, of course, no way it will ever work, however."

I'm sure you can see the fallacy in assuming something won't work on the basis of trying it once, when there are many other ways you can attempt something.

The basic point here is its an approach that already didn't work out favorably once. Thus it is perfectly understandable why Homura wasn't so quick to try that out again. Sure, it's not undeniable proof that this approach is wrong, but it should be enough to tell you that basic information dump is probably not a favorable outcome here either.

Again, you're imposing your own thoughts here of you could've or would've done, instead of acknowledging that there are other ways. Your way is not necessarily the best, you just speculate it to be.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

We've never seen them actually fight WN before, so you can't really say that. The one time we did see Homura go up against WN by herself, she failed miserably. The point is, by this timeline, she should damn well know what it takes to take down WN. If you play darts with someone, and they get bullseyes 90% of the time, you should have a fairly good idea if you are good enough to beat them.

You say we've never seen them fight WN before, and then go on to say she should know full well how to take it down by now. What? You're contradicting yourself here. Since we never saw what went down, we can't know this for sure. Maybe she's fighting WN differently each time. Have you ever fought a boss in an RPG in multiple different way before succeeding perhaps on your 10th try?

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Anyway, the argument here is Homura trying to do the harder thing: take on WN alone, when she knows it was barely defeated before by Madoka. Do you always try the harder route to accomplishing something first? Or do you try the easier method at least several times first? It's generally human nature to do the latter.

Easier solution is not always the best solution if the consequences of that may be greater. If I run with your logic and say that Homrua does indeed know what it takes to fight with WN, then can't we say that because of her comments (Like in ep 11 that she didn't need Kyoko) that she had a general idea of what she was doing?

[QUOTE=Kaijo;3583471]You're not offering any counter points here. If you think I am too quick to dismiss, then explain why. See my question to you way above, about what you'd do for your friend; would you explain to him in advance about a scam he's likely to get hit by? Or do you go about killing everyone that could scam him?

Originally Posted by Kaijo

While I'd admit you have a partial point here, it's not an entire one. For one thing, they weren't as sheltered as you might like to believe, as they did have access to media and thus could see the world around them, no different than you or I. Do you consider yourself particularly naive? Osama Bin Laden came from an incredibly wealthy family and thus was sheltered to a degree... and yet he chose to go live in caves.

Well it's a causation effect such that being rich = naive. I do however think there's a correlation in there, though I can' t prove it obviously. But that's getting away form what I was trying to say anyways.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Aha, so you would say that Kyoko shouldn't be a naive one, then?

And why I've repeatedly said that episode 9 was the least favorable one to me in the series. I didn't appreciate her decision making process in that episode int he end as she basically rage quitted and was taken out of the picture without good cause. This was probably the biggest mistake in the series, but I was able to live with it.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Scared of dying, yes. But that's about it. That's mainly my point: we don't know what else she was really thinking, and the big issue here, is that we never see her put together two and two to realize there may be a chance to revive Mami (something I also ding Sayaka for, and I like her).

But like I said, what you might've wanted to do or think or whatever, is not necessarily what someone else would be thinking. You're imposing your own mind on the characters to evaluate their own intelligence.

Yes, someone people, including I had the thought that using a wish to revive her might've been possible. And surely based on what KYube said, and Madoka's conversation with him in episode 8, she had a general idea of what she could probably do in this situation (Though not for sure, it's not a certainty since Kyube can only tell her that it is a mere possibility and nothing else). She's scared ot death in these episodes, and then you're asking her to think on screen with clarity for you, I could revive her by making a contract. This already implies that it would be something she would want ot do which she clearly doesn't

These characters were explicitly stated to be scared. Most things of visual media don't even go so far to detail the emotions and thoughts of characters as much as animes like this do.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

This isn't so much directed at you Reckoner, as there have been others who have been worse in this regard. But maybe, next time, when someone gives a review that doesn't jump on the bandwagon, we can accept that it didn't work for them; "Sorry that you had issues with some things and didn't like it as much. I felt otherwise, but I can respect you have different standards and tastes than me."

Well not speaking for others here of course... My main point of conflict here with your posts is that you're trying to paint many of your views on this show in a objective manner, so that the show is objectively flawed, and that these objective flaws are the reason for you not enjoying it. What I am saying, and been trying to point out, is that these aren't really so much objective flaws, as a lot of them are very subjective (And on the DEM, I'm going to say it again, you're just wrong as many users have pointed out to you already).

A lot of your statements are grounded in "I think this should've been done here, or oculd've been done here," and because they don't act that way, you declare the characters as idiotic and thus you think the plot is unrealistic and contrived. What I've been trying to do for the most part is disconnect the first part from your lead up to declaring them "idiotic" and so on, because that's not something I can agree with. I realize why your tastes don't gell well with the series, and honestly I was the one saying since very early that I think you'll never enjoy this because you were wanting something more Nanohaesque. That's all I've been trying to clarify in your posts. Now if you still disagree on that front, then I'm going to continue to disagree with you on the points that have been made.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

No it doesn't. I personally believe that an ending doesn't really "destroy" the full narrative or the development we got from a series, unless the ending itself just shatters what has been done already.
I will not pretend that this ending isn't a "logical" one, although I can help but be underwhelmed by it. Still, it is a "good" one but it is my loss since I was the one with higher/different expectations.

Fair enough.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Actually no, I don't think they die like "normal" person: they still go through a lionshare of misery. Remember that Madoka doesn't exactly change the system, but cut short the very end process of it, leading to an alteration of the cycle. However, girls are still "flesh robots" since Madoka didn't touch the rest of the system, nor does it prevent them to fall in despair. And again, I believe it is difficult to consider it "better" to die when you think there is "no more hope". It is like an automatic loss condition and you are forced to act like Homura in order to survive: forcing yourself to keep on, even if the odds against you.
Unlike the courageous hero that does that for the sake of salvaging the situation, MG would have to do that in order -not to die-, not really a righteous point if you ask me.

Well alright. It isn't exactly "normal" so I'll correct myself. I was merely referring to the idea that they don't end up as witches in the end and essentially be damned to eternal suffering.

But for all the reason you mentioned though is why I still argue that this is still a deconstruction, though people claim it is a reconstruction. That's wha thtis story was supposed to be right?

Still this ending world is undeniably a little better than the previous.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

A little nitpick but: the way how kyuubey worded it is all too similar to what he told to Kyouko: that "he doesn't know how to turn back Sayaka", then flately says to Homura "no way".
Kyuubey knows that Madoka has the potential to become a deity that could warp the rules of the universe, but that doesn't mean he would grant it per se: Knowing Madoka, she doesn't care if she becomes a god etc, since at this point she just want to save Sayaka. Therefore, explaining her that she has the potential to become a god doesn't mean she will be one, especially since she is the receiving end of the process as far as it was shown at that moment.

Of course, I question Kyuubey not trying to use Madoka as the perfect entropy solution, something like "energy flowing infinitely" or something. To me, it is an indication that Kyuubey sees Madoka power level way off the charts, but can't define how far it can go (proved by the fact he wasn't expecting her to defeat WN in a single hit).

I guess it's a matter of how one view's Kyube's character. Yes, he's extremely conniving and will word anything in a favorable way to the characters as to lead them into certain actions of his choosing.

I also supposed that if the Incubator's goal was to battle entropy they would've tried to instigate guidelines to prevent interference with such a goal, and thus would have been more cautious with their wording.

This my speculation of course, and it would have been nicer had Gen laid it out himself, I admit and I can fully see why people would be bothered by it.

However, while Kyube's words have often been misleading, and he hides information, he has never directly lied in the series. That's why when he said "I can even make you into a God if you wanted," I saw it as just merely part of the deal they've been talking about the whole time. Because of what he said and the details of the deal we were given, fulfilling her wish on that matter was just part of the agreement.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Akashin

Whether or not something makes you discuss it isn't necessarily a false measure of judgment. Using it as your sole or even your primary measure of judgment is, of course, but it isn't to be discounted entirely. It goes back to the idea that the mark of a good story is that it makes you think, and while such stories are few and far between, I feel it's safe to say that whether or not a story makes you think is indeed a good indicator. Take Inception for example; it probably isn't a perfect example since it didn't make you think quite as much as it probably tried to, but there's no denying that it kept you sitting forward trying to catch every detail. And while some may argue it (I'm not sure how many), Inception was an amazing movie largely due to that very reason.

I actually never saw Inception, heh; didn't seem like my type of movie. While I'd agree ambiguity to make one thing is a worthy goal, we'd have to look at whether Madoka did that. I mean, Evangelion had an ambiguous ending that lent much to discussion, that's a fairly decent way to do it (never mind the fact that Anno was plain off his meds, heh). And I say that as someone who is not that into Evangelion, and didn't really feel the ending was that great. I saw it because it is an interesting look into the degenerating mind of a writer who has gone off his meds, but that's about it.

But it is the type of ambiguity where things are left unexplained that should be explained, where we run into the issue. If Bob is in his basement in LA, and 5 minutes later, you see Bob in the top floor of a building in Chicago, and never explain how he got there, that's bad ambiguity.

When Kyoko goes from "I can kill you with a smile on my face!" to "I'm gonna give up my life for you!" and you never really explain (and yes, someone will come up with a "theory" to explain it, while missing the point that the show didn't explain it), that's bad ambiguity.

Originally Posted by Kagayaki

I've never seen Twilight or Avatar, and I've never tried to discuss them with anyone. I just don't think that they're things I can personally enjoy, so I haven't invested time in watching them. That makes me unqualified to judge whether or not they're actually any good though.

I wasn't trying to equate popular with good, in case you were wondering.

It's a useful clarification. But I was trying to mention generally bad movies to show why a story can be bad. I suppose I should ask: what movies/shows have you watched that you felt were bad(ones that seem near universally panned as bad)? Why did you think so?

I think I'll toss this up: 8 Classic Movies That Got Away With Gaping Plot Holes (it's cracked.com, so it can be a bit NSFW). You've probably seen at least a few of those. I point this out, because a movie can be enjoyed even though it has a gaping plot hole (which is why I can understand people enjoying Madoka), but other times the plot holes ruin things for me. I felt Back to the Future was a fun movie to watch, in spite of the hole. But the holes in Harry Potter, Sixth Sense, and Minority Report ruined it for me.

It's partly a matter of subjective taste, but there are very legitimate issues with all of those movies.

I never meant to argue that ambiguity is good in and of itself. Perhaps I was a little unclear. Ambiguity is not the goal of writing, and niether is popularity. The goal of writing is to make the people who do decide to watch or read your work think about it.
And I don't think that's a small criterion at all.

I mean, there's a reason why Evangelion is so widely influential. Every time it comes up, there's a discussion about it. I don't think you can argue that Evangelion is not ambiguous though.

I said my thoughts on Eva above, but I personally don't feel that just generating discussion is even a good thing. Plenty of discussion was generated on The Last Airbender, after all, but mostly of a mocking nature. Or, if you prefer, Signs. One could argue those movies made people think, too.

However, I will say this:
As a vehicle to make people think about the magical girl genre, I am willing to give PMMM it's dues for a measure of success.
It is only the story itself that I draw issue with; and I say this not to put it down, but to draw attention to the issues of how it could have been better. It's out of a desire to say, "Hey, I feel it is suffering from these issues, which can be corrected in a number of ways."

Blind praise doesn't help a writer, as much as a critique of where they could improve. Glossing over faults, is a surefire guarantee that they will continue to be made.

[Akashin]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

I actually never saw Inception, heh; didn't seem like my type of movie. While I'd agree ambiguity to make one thing is a worthy goal, we'd have to look at whether Madoka did that. I mean, Evangelion had an ambiguous ending that lent much to discussion, that's a fairly decent way to do it (never mind the fact that Anno was plain off his meds, heh). And I say that as someone who is not that into Evangelion, and didn't really feel the ending was that great. I saw it because it is an interesting look into the degenerating mind of a writer who has gone off his meds, but that's about it.

But it is the type of ambiguity where things are left unexplained that should be explained, where we run into the issue. If Bob is in his basement in LA, and 5 minutes later, you see Bob in the top floor of a building in Chicago, and never explain how he got there, that's bad ambiguity.

When Kyoko goes from "I can kill you with a smile on my face!" to "I'm gonna give up my life for you!" and you never really explain (and yes, someone will come up with a "theory" to explain it, while missing the point that the show didn't explain it), that's bad ambiguity.

Uh, not that I'm completely disagreeing or anything, but... where did I bring up ambiguity? Though on that subject, most of the things you've brought up as ambiguity (I'll stay out of the argument of whether or not they really are such) would be classified as bad ambiguity. Of course there's also harmless or even good ambiguity; I think primarily of the train scene in episode 8 like this, where whether or not Sayaka killed those two guys is less important than the very true fact that she clearly could/would have. In such a case ambiguity is either harmless or even good, depending whether or not you think being left with the question of whether or not she really did go over the edge is a good thing. Personally, I liked being left to make that conclusion for myself.

And for the record, I'll see your not having seen Inception and raise you my not having seen Evangelion. <_< I guess it's something I would consider going back to watch one day, but every time I think about it I'm faced with a painful lack of interest. So I can't really say anything about how that series dealt with ambiguity, or anything else about it really.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Kuroi Sabato

I guess I haven't stressed my point enough. Again, Kyouko's family was already suffering way before she contracted. You would call her stupid for trying to save her family from dying of hunger?

No, I wouldn't.

But you set the standard of 'stupidity' as being "taking actions that hurt yourself and those who care about you". Well, Kyouko did that. Unintentionally, of course, but she did do that.


Sometimes people make mistakes. It doesn't necessarily make them stupid or irrational. The brightest and most rational people around can and do make mistakes some times.

I think that you're a bit too harsh on Sayaka... but then, you're not the only one...

I do agree with you on one thing, though: Sayaka is very emotional, and that's often the main reason she makes the mistakes that she does. But some of her conversations with Madoka displayed a good level of intelligence, for both girls.

[Kaijo]

Reckoner, I'm gonna try and clear up some of the natter, since it appears to be addressing the same issue you seem to have with what I have been saying, so I'll just start with that. And the issue is that I am saying the characters are stupid for not doing what I would have done; is this correct?

Because let me state right here, this isn't the case. I don't expect characters to do what I would have done, and indeed, if I was holding that expectation, I could point so many more things that I would have done differently.

What I ask for is a believable transition for a normal human under circumstances. There are several ways to go about it. You yourself acknowledge the issue about Kyoko in episode 9; that's what I'm talking about. There is a clear difference between wanting characters to act non-stupidly, and wanting them to act exactly like I would. You may feel I'm doing the latter, but I'm really not. I'm arguing for the former.

And many people here have agreed on those concepts, and we are all different people, so we can't very well all be insisting on the characters acting like each one of us. Like it or not, they are legitimate issues, on the same scale as Kyoko in episode 9. Partly subjective, but also partly objective, since quite a few people see the same issues.

If a bunch of us all agree that there are things a reasonable, normal person should have done/said, then by definition, it can't be just one person forcing their own thoughts onto the character.

Originally Posted by Reckoner

I don't understand why they should have been led to that question? There was no real good correlation between mahou shoujo's origins and a witch's origin. It was merely said that if you can say mahou shoujos are born from hopes and desire, witches are born from curses. When they already saw witches as something completely alien and monstrous, there is no natural lead up between the two. The answer was cryptic, but presented just enough of an explanation such that it's not exactly all that questionable at that point.

I don't even think a lot of the viewers here questioned that line when they saw that episode, why would the girls necessarily do so? Again, what reason do the yhave to be so dubious in the first place?

Actually, one of the theories at the time of that line put out by several people(and continued since), was that witches were all previously magical girls, or the result of a girl putting a curse on someone else. I wasn't involved in any of these theories, but it does go to show that more than a few people thought about it, showcasing that it was a normal, logical conclusion to come to. And thus all the more glaring when neither Sayaka nor Madoka (or Mami even) followed up on.

The basic point here is its an approach that already didn't work out favorably once. Thus it is perfectly understandable why Homura wasn't so quick to try that out again. Sure, it's not undeniable proof that this approach is wrong, but it should be enough to tell you that basic information dump is probably not a favorable outcome here either.

Okay, then. You're saying that an approach that didn't work out favorably once would mean Homura wouldn't be quick to try it again. Sorta like her approach to deal with WN didn't work out favorably once... and yet she decided to try it again. Granted, she went about it in a different way... but she could have gone about convincing Madoka in a different way, too. Apply the standard evenly.

You say we've never seen them fight WN before, and then go on to say she should know full well how to take it down by now. What? You're contradicting yourself here. Since we never saw what went down, we can't know this for sure. Maybe she's fighting WN differently each time. Have you ever fought a boss in an RPG in multiple different way before succeeding perhaps on your 10th try?

Yes, WE haven't seen them fight WN before. SHE has. That's the difference. Just like your RPG boss, fighting it several times will give you a could handle on it's abilities and fighting style. I know if I fight the same boss a few times, and fail each time, I'd know that I can't beat it and it is time to try something different.

Easier solution is not always the best solution if the consequences of that may be greater. If I run with your logic and say that Homrua does indeed know what it takes to fight with WN, then can't we say that because of her comments (Like in ep 11 that she didn't need Kyoko) that she had a general idea of what she was doing?

Given what we saw in episode 11, I'd have to seriously question that she knew what she was doing (among other things I'd question). But as far as solution, the problem here is Homura's goal: stopping Madoka from sacrificing herself by contracting. Even if Homura defeated WN, it still wouldn't have accomplished that goal, since Kyube still would have been around and still would have tried to recruit Madoka; he ain't gonna give that tasty morsel up unless Madoka tells him to scram.

Homura should know this, and thus why her actions mean she's carrying the idiot ball. There is nothing stopping her from fighting WN alone *AND* trying to convince Madoka. That she doesn't even attempt the latter, is what brings her competence into question.

Again I repeat my question to you, about what you'd do for your friend; would you explain to him in advance about a scam he's likely to get hit by? Or do you go about killing everyone that could scam him? Which seems the more normal thing for a human to do?

And why I've repeatedly said that episode 9 was the least favorable one to me in the series. I didn't appreciate her decision making process in that episode int he end as she basically rage quitted and was taken out of the picture without good cause. This was probably the biggest mistake in the series, but I was able to live with it.

If it was only one or two issues like this, I could probably live with it, too. Straws and camels, though.

Yes, someone people, including I had the thought that using a wish to revive her might've been possible. And surely based on what KYube said, and Madoka's conversation with him in episode 8, she had a general idea of what she could probably do in this situation (Though not for sure, it's not a certainty since Kyube can only tell her that it is a mere possibility and nothing else). She's scared ot death in these episodes, and then you're asking her to think on screen with clarity for you, I could revive her by making a contract. This already implies that it would be something she would want ot do which she clearly doesn't

These characters were explicitly stated to be scared. Most things of visual media don't even go so far to detail the emotions and thoughts of characters as much as animes like this do.

This anime takes place in the span of a month (a repeating month, heh). They don't spend the entire time scared of their minds. Very few people stay scared enough that long that they can't even find one moment to think. Madoka has plenty of time to come down off the fear and think; you can see this when she talks to her mom about Sayaka. It shows that she isn't scared out of her mind, and she is thinking. She obviously has more moments like that, so just saying "She's scared!" isn't a proper response. There are very few moments when she is paralyzed by fear, quite a few where she merely has a sense of fear, and quite a few others where she's mostly got it under control and thus has time to think.

In fact, part of the suggestion for how it could be handled, would have worked nicely with the fear, having her internally come up with the idea, and then have the fear force her to bury it again. It's something I've mentioned quite a few times.

Well not speaking for others here of course... My main point of conflict here with your posts is that you're trying to paint many of your views on this show in a objective manner, so that the show is objectively flawed, and that these objective flaws are the reason for you not enjoying it. What I am saying, and been trying to point out, is that these aren't really so much objective flaws, as a lot of them are very subjective (And on the DEM, I'm going to say it again, you're just wrong as many users have pointed out to you already).

Subjective is what the individual perceives. Objective is what many individuals perceive. We have many people who have agreed with my points, and many people who feel the same as you. In that sense, both our points are objective-based. There are a great many that love Twilight and think it's perfect, and a great many who who feel the plot holes render it horrible. Who do you go with?

I realize why your tastes don't gell well with the series, and honestly I was the one saying since very early that I think you'll never enjoy this because you were wanting something more Nanohaesque. That's all I've been trying to clarify in your posts. Now if you still disagree on that front, then I'm going to continue to disagree with you on the points that have been made.

Honestly speaking, I do recognize that part of my issues is that it didn't work well for me. But I'm also not alone in feeling that way, and I know you've seen quite a few posts from people like Triple R and Klash, who also espouse having similar misgivings about how things went down. If it was just me, sure. But it really is more than just me, which means there are valid issues. And we don't raise them to be mean, but because we want to see it be better than it is.

Critical reviews are no less valid than any other.

Originally Posted by Akashin

Uh, not that I'm completely disagreeing or anything, but... where did I bring up ambiguity? Though on that subject, most of the things you've brought up as ambiguity (I'll stay out of the argument of whether or not they really are such) would be classified as bad ambiguity. Of course there's also harmless or even good ambiguity; I think primarily of the train scene in episode 8 like this, where whether or not Sayaka killed those two guys is less important than the very true fact that she clearly could/would have. In such a case ambiguity is either harmless or even good, depending whether or not you think being left with the question of whether or not she really did go over the edge is a good thing. Personally, I liked being left to make that conclusion for myself.

Heh, sorry, I kinda got you mixed up with my response to Kagayaki. And I would agree with you on the Sayak/train ambiguity part. That part isn't important enough to show what happened. That's something I can easily let slide, and be content to discuss or think about. The issues I, and people like Triple R and Klash, have brought up, are ones that should have been addressed, however.

[Kagayaki]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

It's a useful clarification. But I was trying to mention generally bad movies to show why a story can be bad. I suppose I should ask: what movies/shows have you watched that you felt were bad(ones that seem near universally panned as bad)? Why did you think so?

To use a recent example, I didn't think Infinite Stratos was good. (I can't resist Charlotte and Kanazawa Hana though, so I was watching it for reasons completely unrelated to artistic merit ). Here are some reasons that it's bad:
- Most of the characters feel like they were copy-pasted directly out of other harem shows. This leaves very little to think about or discuss in terms of characterization. Furthermore, 90% of the female characters are generic tsunderes. That trope has been beaten to death 1000 times over.
- The plot is clearly contrived to create this harem, rather than to tell a story that's actually interesting. Not much to think about there either.

To its merit though, it at least got me to watch it and was commercially sucessful. But anyone who seriously tries to argue that it's not at the absolute bottom of the barrel in terms of artistic merit needs to get their head examined.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

I think I'll toss this up: 8 Classic Movies That Got Away With Gaping Plot Holes (it's cracked.com, so it can be a bit NSFW). You've probably seen at least a few of those. I point this out, because a movie can be enjoyed even though it has a gaping plot hole (which is why I can understand people enjoying Madoka), but other times the plot holes ruin things for me. I felt Back to the Future was a fun movie to watch, in spite of the hole. But the holes in Harry Potter, Sixth Sense, and Minority Report ruined it for me.

It's partly a matter of subjective taste, but there are very legitimate issues with all of those movies.

Yeah, those are legitimate issues in the sense that they show logical inconsistencies in the plot. But Star Wars still managed to become a cultural touchstone, and Citizen Kane is still considered to be one of the greatest movies of all time. (Again, not to say that popular = good, but rather, I think influential = good. By definition, when you influence someone else, they've thought long and hard about your work.)

Believe it or not, I was actually considering tossing up that same article to support my point of view

Originally Posted by Kaijo

I said my thoughts on Eva above, but I personally don't feel that just generating discussion is even a good thing. Plenty of discussion was generated on The Last Airbender, after all, but mostly of a mocking nature. Or, if you prefer, Signs. One could argue those movies made people think, too.

However, I will say this:
As a vehicle to make people think about the magical girl genre, I am willing to give PMMM it's dues for a measure of success.
It is only the story itself that I draw issue with; and I say this not to put it down, but to draw attention to the issues of how it could have been better. It's out of a desire to say, "Hey, I feel it is suffering from these issues, which can be corrected in a number of ways."

Blind praise doesn't help a writer, as much as a critique of where they could improve. Glossing over faults, is a surefire guarantee that they will continue to be made.

Ok, I guess I'm willing to concede that not all types of thought and discussion are equally good. I would say that discussions that are themselves intelectually interesting are good. I feel like this might be somewhat of a circular definition, but whatever

Is Kyubey evil? Is amoral the same thing as immoral?
Is Sayaka a tragic character? Did she deserve her fate?
Is Madoka's world actually better than the old one, or is it more or less the same?
Was Kyouko's sacrifice heroic or stupid? Is she really so jaded and self-confident, or is that just a facade?
How does Madoka's role in the story compare to the Buddhist Bohisattva ideal?

Madoka has created a lot of discussions I thought have been interesting. So the extent that any anime can do anything intellectually interesting, I think that Madoka has suceeeded.

[Xakanis]

Why are those demons spawned at the end there? I rewatched episode 2, and all they said about witches was that they were born from despair, but we know that witches are only born from magical girls' despair. Do witches also form spontaneously from random people's anguish?

[Riga92]

^ The new system changed it in that demons are born from the distortions and the negative emotions of ALL humans, not just magical girls, which is why it seems there are so many of them.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Kagayaki

To use a recent example, I didn't think Infinite Stratos was good. (I can't resist Charlotte and Kanazawa Hana though, so I was watching it for reasons completely unrelated to artistic merit ). Here are some reasons that it's bad:
- Most of the characters feel like they were copy-pasted directly out of other harem shows. This leaves very little to think about or discuss in terms of characterization. Furthermore, 90% of the female characters are generic tsunderes. That trope has been beaten to death 1000 times over.
- The plot is clearly contrived to create this harem, rather than to tell a story that's actually interesting. Not much to think about there either.

To its merit though, it at least got me to watch it and was commercially sucessful. But anyone who seriously tries to argue that it's not at the absolute bottom of the barrel in terms of artistic merit needs to get their head examined.

And thus, how would you feel, if people told you: "Infinite Stratos was really good! Any issues you have with it are purely subjective and you're merely projecting yourself into it!"

Note that I don't feel PMMM is as bad as IS, and do agree there are a number of good things to be said about PMMM. I'm not telling anyone to get their head examined, either.

Yeah, those are legitimate issues in the sense that they show logical inconsistencies in the plot. But Star Wars still managed to become a cultural touchstone, and Citizen Kane is still considered to be one of the greatest movies of all time. (Again, not to say that popular = good, but rather, I think influential = good. By definition, when you influence someone else, they've thought long and hard about your work.)

Believe it or not, I was actually considering tossing up that same article to support my point of view

Madoka has created a lot of discussions I thought have been interesting. So the extent that any anime can do anything intellectually interesting, I think that Madoka has suceeeded.[/QUOTE]

I can agree that the issues Madoka brings up, do make for some nice discussions; just that there are issues with the story itself. Infinite Stratos never tried to be anything else but a mecha harem anime, and there were probably some good discussions that went on in the IS thread. PMMM tried to be something else, and thus why I am more critical of it, perhaps in the same way a loving parent might punish their child, heh.

Though I suppose I can be persuaded to bring up my "below average" to more "average" since it did try and there were a quite a few things that did work well, so I might have been a bit too harsh on it.

[Akashin]

Originally Posted by Xakanis

Why are those demons spawned at the end there? I rewatched episode 2, and all they said about witches was that they were born from despair, but we know that witches are only born from magical girls' despair. Do witches also form spontaneously from random people's anguish?

The simple answer is: Witches are MGs who succumbed to grief (obviously). When Madoka removed them from the world the universe said, "No God-Modding," and threw those demons in to replace Witches. Homura explains them as being the manifested grief of humanity as a whole; far more numerous, but also (likely) considerably weaker, than Witches. They're basically a product of the necessity of there being balance (and a reason for MGs to exist; they like to feel useful, you know ).

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

Well alright. It isn't exactly "normal" so I'll correct myself. I was merely referring to the idea that they don't end up as witches in the end and essentially be damned to eternal suffering.

But for all the reason you mentioned though is why I still argue that this is still a deconstruction, though people claim it is a reconstruction.

To set the record straight, I argued that Madoka Magica is a deconstruction and a reconstruction.

And I made supporting arguments to that effect here, here, and here.

Unless I missed something, you haven't addressed any of these arguments at all. If you're going to continue to deny that this anime has a reconstructive element to it, I would appreciate it if you could at least explain why my arguments to the contrary are wrong in your opinion.

That's what this story was supposed to be right?

And how do you know that? Was this anime promoted as a deconstruction? Did Gen call it that? Did Shinbo? Did SHAFT?

I don't recall them promoting it that way, do you?

Actually, Gen said that he wanted to write a "heartwarming" tale, and guess what, he did.

And I think that Klash greatly overstates how bad things still are in Madoka World, as I argued here.

Sol Falling made an excellent post here backing up that position as well.


Madoka World is more than just a "little better" than Original World. It's a lot better, imo.

[Solace]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

When Kyoko goes from "I can kill you with a smile on my face!" to "I'm gonna give up my life for you!" and you never really explain (and yes, someone will come up with a "theory" to explain it, while missing the point that the show didn't explain it), that's bad ambiguity.

It's ambiguous to you. I understood perfectly why Kyoko's attitude changed, and I didn't need the show to spoon feed me an explanation. It left enough information there for me to see the reasons, so it was acceptable to me.

Much like how I can rationalize why the question of wishing Mami back to life, or why the girls never pinned down Kyubey and grilled him for answers, I also accept that it is because of these things that the story could progress and end the way it did. In the end the story was never really about the rules of the universe, but about the characters and their struggles and hopes. If you've ever seen Haibane Renmei, it's very similar in this regard. The story isn't about the world of Haibane Renmei, although you do get some info to help the story along. It was about the characters and their lives, and how they come to terms with their Day of Flight.

Would it be nice to have things fleshed out more, to have a nice explainable universe wrapped up in a neat package? Sure. But that isn't always the case, and sometimes it means the audience will have to fill in the blanks if they want.

Anyway, I've already said my peace; I loved the show and the ending, for all of its flaws. It's an original story, and an emotionally beautiful one at that. Yes, I cried. I'm happy to admit that.

Madoka may not be a classic, or the best anime of all time. But it is damn good, putting to shame so many anime that can't even properly adapt a good source let alone make a quality original story. Maybe it isn't perfect, but no creative work is. At some point you have to put down the pen and just let it go.

I think I'll let Oscar Wilde say it better than I can:

A work of art is the unique result of a unique temperament. Its beauty comes from the fact that the author is what he is. It has nothing to do with the fact that other people want what they want. Indeed, the moment that an artist takes notice of what other people want, and tries to supply the demand, he ceases to be an artist, and becomes a dull or an amusing craftsman, an honest or dishonest tradesman. He has no further claim to be considered as an artist.

[Triple_R]

In Kaijo's defense, I think he raises some valid points as it pertains to lingering lore-based questions (Klash brings these up as well), and also as it pertains to some characterization issues. It does disappoint me a bit, for example, that the identity of such an important plot point character as Walpurgisnight remains a complete mystery.

These issues don't bother me as much as they do Kaijo, but I do see why they do bother him.

Should this anime have a sequel, I'd love to see Gen address these lingering questions.


That being said, Madoka Magica is the best anime of 2011 thus far, in my opinion, and I'd also consider it better than any TV-based anime I've seen since Clannad: After Story.

[daimonth]

This is actually the first time Homura fought Walpurgis on her own that we know of. The rest of the time she either has Madoka as support or has Madoka finished the job for her. From what we have shown, WPN have not been beaten once without Madoka as PM.

Of course that is a losing condition for Homura so she was forced to look elsewhere. In this cycle she tried to obtain Kyoukos assistance, (both Mami and Sayaka were no good from her past experience) but Kyubey closed that avenue off. She has no other choice at that point but to just go with what she has, that is, increased conventional firepower.

One can talk about could have or might have, but frankly we already seen what come from full disclosure for her part. So she is left with small avenue of maneuver room.

As for not asking all the questions, frankly I don't see much problem with it. Yes it's an omission, but it is neither out of character nor such a plot problem that they didn't. It has been noted several time previously of their mental state that might lead them to avoid such questons as well as their young age. In law there are certain provisions protecting minor from entering contracts, recognizing a certain lack in this regard in general. So perhaps one should consider that before proclaiming it to be a glaring problem.

As for Kyouko's change of attitude, actually the show did explain it.

[RedWing]

Kyouko commited suicide. I really don't see how hard it is to understand that a person could decide not to live anymore, especially when we are shown that their lives will bring misery to others.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Subjective is what the individual perceives. Objective is what many individuals perceive. We have many people who have agreed with my points, and many people who feel the same as you. In that sense, both our points are objective-based. There are a great many that love Twilight and think it's perfect, and a great many who who feel the plot holes render it horrible. Who do you go with?

Just because a few people agree with you doesn't make your argument objective. That's one of the stupidest things I've ever heard.

Actually, one of the theories at the time of that line put out by several people(and continued since), was that witches were all previously magical girls, or the result of a girl putting a curse on someone else. I wasn't involved in any of these theories, but it does go to show that more than a few people thought about it, showcasing that it was a normal, logical conclusion to come to. And thus all the more glaring when neither Sayaka nor Madoka (or Mami even) followed up on.

People put up loads of different theories, just because one of them was right don’t mean it was a logical conclusion. First, we are looking at it from the view of an outsider, second many people have theories in real life that are not exactly logical. many independent people had the theory that 9/11 was an inside job, they might be right but it doesn’t that mean that it is a logical conclusion to the information we are given.

Okay, then. You're saying that an approach that didn't work out favorably once would mean Homura wouldn't be quick to try it again. Sorta like her approach to deal with WN didn't work out favorably once... and yet she decided to try it again. Granted, she went about it in a different way... but she could have gone about convincing Madoka in a different way, too. Apply the standard evenly.

Why is it that people think we were shown every single timeline? gg's translation says that Homura repeated the month COUNTLESS times. That means when she says something doesn't work we have no reason to doubt her.

Yes, WE haven't seen them fight WN before. SHE has. That's the difference. Just like your RPG boss, fighting it several times will give you a could handle on it's abilities and fighting style. I know if I fight the same boss a few times, and fail each time, I'd know that I can't beat it and it is time to try something different.

Are you even watching the show? She DID try something different!

Given what we saw in episode 11, I'd have to seriously question that she knew what she was doing (among other things I'd question). But as far as solution, the problem here is Homura's goal: stopping Madoka from sacrificing herself by contracting. Even if Homura defeated WN, it still wouldn't have accomplished that goal, since Kyube still would have been around and still would have tried to recruit Madoka; he ain't gonna give that tasty morsel up unless Madoka tells him to scram.

I have to disagree here, although this is a much better made point. Homura from the beginning has made a simple goal of not allowing Madoka to come into a situation in which she has to contract. WN is the MOST powerful witch, so once the threat is gone Madoka no longer has any reason to contract. Remember Madoka's life if easy and simple, she has no troubles and no issues. Once WN is gone, she can go back to living her life as normal. You are forgetting that once Madoka said no in ep 4, KYUBEE LEAVES!

Critical reviews are no less valid than any other.

100% true, but the problem is that you have to actually make proper well supported arguments, not just throwing out a torrent of complaints without really analysing them.

[Kagayaki]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

And thus, how would you feel, if people told you: "Infinite Stratos was really good! Any issues you have with it are purely subjective and you're merely projecting yourself into it!"

Note that I don't feel PMMM is as bad as IS, and do agree there are a number of good things to be said about PMMM. I'm not telling anyone to get their head examined, either.

If I thought that the discussion about whether or not it was good was interesting, then I'd have to reasssess my opinion of the show. If I didn't think it was interesting, I'd say "agree to disagree" and go home. My attention span isn't that great

I could be entertained with a discussion of why IS is commercially sucessful in a way that other formulatic harem/fanservice series are not (also, a discussion of what that says about the anime industry and anime fans). So I retract my earlier statement. It's one small step above the bottom of the barrel, in a weird meta-interesting sense. :P

I suppose that thought provoking and interesting on an individual level is subjective, although on a consensus level these are less so.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

I can agree that the issues Madoka brings up, do make for some nice discussions; just that there are issues with the story itself. Infinite Stratos never tried to be anything else but a mecha harem anime, and there were probably some good discussions that went on in the IS thread. PMMM tried to be something else, and thus why I am more critical of it, perhaps in the same way a loving parent might punish their child, heh.

Though I suppose I can be persuaded to bring up my "below average" to more "average" since it did try and there were a quite a few things that did work well, so I might have been a bit too harsh on it.

As far as writing quality, goes, I didn't think that any of the plot holes were large enough to interfere with my enjoyment of the series, since they're all easily inferred over. This is probably a difference of taste too.....

Originally Posted by Kaijo

But it is the type of ambiguity where things are left unexplained that should be explained, where we run into the issue. If Bob is in his basement in LA, and 5 minutes later, you see Bob in the top floor of a building in Chicago, and never explain how he got there, that's bad ambiguity.

For instance, if this is 5 minutes later in story-time (and it is explicity stated or can be unambiguously deduced from explicitly stated facts that it only took 5 minutes for Bob to go to Chicago), I would be confused, and some explanation would be in order. If this is 5 minutes later in viewer-time, I would assume he took a plane or something, and not be worried about it if there are more interesting things going on in the plot.

(In this specific case, I think a 3 second montage of bob taking a plane would be nice though.)

Similarly, I don't need to see Madoka interrogating Kyubey about the specifics of the wish system. I'm fine inferring that she either was not willing to make the wishes she didn't make or that they would have turned out poorly. So maybe it would have been better if this had been more explicitly explained, but I didn't worry about it.

I think my point is that the quality of writing is less important than how thought provoking a show is in terms of how I assess the quality of anime. Furthermore, how well a work lends itself to interesting discussion is more important that quality of writing in terms of how influential a work is.

[Akashin]

Originally Posted by daimonth

This is actually the first time Homura fought Walpurgis on her own that we know of. The rest of the time she either has Madoka as support or has Madoka finished the job for her. From what we have shown, WPN have not been beaten once without Madoka as PM.

Of course that is a losing condition for Homura so she was forced to look elsewhere. In this cycle she tried to obtain Kyoukos assistance, (both Mami and Sayaka were no good from her past experience) but Kyubey closed that avenue off. She has no other choice at that point but to just go with what she has, that is, increased conventional firepower.

It's safe to call this timeline her second solo fight; timeline 4 counts even if Madoka finished the fight, since Homura's own fight--however grand a failure it might have been--was completely solo. I do agree that trying to recruit Kyoko and later amassing all that firepower covers up any perceived idiocy you may take away from this, but all the same she has indeed tried to fight it alone before.

[synaesthetic]

Pages and pages and pages of wank. It's pretty amazing, really. Don't you have something better to do than argue about something that's ultimately entertainment and not very important to the real world (unless, of course, you work for SHAFT and this pays your wages).

Y'know, I might actually write a good review of the series from a literary standpoint after watching it--maybe I can get extra credit in my English class for using the poetic tools? Then it might be useful somehow.

I'm stepping out of this thread because it's clear that those who agree with me already agree, and those who don't never will. The debate's reached a standstill--though some folks are still gamely trying to analyze and further their understanding and appreciation of the plot, characters, themes and imagery... a lot of people are just engaging in fanwank.

@Kaijo: If you hate the show so much, why are you spending so many hours discussing it and picking it apart? Why spend so much effort trying to make everyone else hate it, too?

If you hate it so much and think Mai-HiME and Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha is so much better, why not just go watch those shows and stop trying to tell people who genuinely enjoyed Puella Magi Madoka Magica how "wrong" we are?

If you hate it so much, why don't you just turn it off? I don't watch stuff I hate--I delete it from my hard drive!

[daimonth]

Originally Posted by Akashin

It's safe to call this timeline her second solo fight; timeline 4 counts even if Madoka finished the fight, since Homura's own fight--however grand a failure it might have been--was completely solo. I do agree that trying to recruit Kyoko and later amassing all that firepower covers up any perceived idiocy you may take away from this, but all the same she has indeed tried to fight it alone before.

Yes that is true, however in that fight neither her limit nor Walpurgis limit was fully tested before Madoka stepped in. I have no doubt that she would still lose in the end but it was not a conclusive fight. While it does provide certain knowledge, I doubt it is to any extent beyond knowing that she with the preparation she had in timeline 4 is not enough to beat it.