Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha Character Creation and Discussion

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Sheba

Are you going to be the prosecutor in a Phoenix Wright parody?

Never played a Phoenix Wright game before, but I am going to let the sharpest mind in RF6 do some logical deductions. With the captain idea scrapped and Tesla back in the Wolkenritter, she'd be great for investigation.

Originally Posted by Jimmy C

It could be for reasons other than speed. They might prefer to save their strength for combat when they get there, instead of bleeding it to get there fast. If you're talking about ep4-5, the Forwards can't fly, remember? Nanoha probably figured there's no point in zipping ahead too early.

Which is my idea too, conserving energy. Some people however took it as a sign that mages were slower then heli's.

Originally Posted by Jimmy C

Good point. Why do I keep forgetting those? I wonder what was Mid's answer to those things. And what happened to them?

I'm rather curious about that too. The Arc en Ciel seems like a possible candidate as one of those weapons (and fits with Mid's magic style as well). Though I can sorta guess what happened to them. After the war most of those superweapons were probably outlawed and dismanteled.

Originally Posted by Jimmy C

I think she more likely meant Ginga was one of the first Type-0s produced.

Concidering Quint stopped several rogue units that were already adults while Subaru and Ginga were still kids, I doubt that. I'm pretty sure she was talking about the Type-0 line.

[Tk3997]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Well that's true, but at that time Erio was a B-rank mage, fresh out of basic and with a training device. This last one especially is important.

I don't see why we should assume a training device is total shit or something or even much different then a combat model. Acutally them not be very close makes little sense since what use is the training if it's not as realistic as possible?

That's pretty much the base of being a Striker, isn't it?

Not really IMO, but in this case basiclly I was looking to make a bunch of guys sort of like the Fowards stand outs among the rank and file but not combat monsters like the Aces or some of the main OCs. At the time I hadn't heard what the end game levels of the Fowards were so I kind guessed. It seems I was pretty close which makes me happy.

Although do we know if Teana could fly with that rank? I'd think she'd be able to, but can't recall it mentioned if not I'd almost say she has some sort of disability with regards to flight magic or something.

Any form of stadia ranging in animation is ambigous at best. Doesn't seem to stop anyone willing to use them to prove the weakness of magic, now does it? I'm going to use it to prove its strength.

You say we're trying to prove weakness I say we're trying to establish a baseline of it's strength. SOD isn't about proving anything it's about cataloguing and analyzing what we know. Hell before I came to this forum I also thought mages were pretty fast, but as I dug deeper and looked at the evidence to let it tell it's story without my own assumptions I was forced to conclude they weren't quite as speedy as I thought.

Acutally in hind sight it only makes sense if mages were truly moving around at Jet like speeds ground mages would be just totally worthless as would any sort of large flying mount. Neither could even vaugely challenge mages with those sorts of speeds. This is another reason I favor a slower aerial mage it keeps the poor sods stuck on the ground significantly more viable IMO.

My point was using this information to draw away from the 'you know... mages kinda suck' opinion that SoD seems to create, and put the 'awesome' back in Nanoha. Mages were noted to be terribly slow before only because they used a heli, and I intend to crush this myth.

Myth? Sorry Keroko you need to get your head out of your ass a Myth implies a lack of proof sadly that's simply not the case the Myth here would acutally be that mages are super fast when damn near ever canon scene we see them flying in shows a speed comparable to helicopters at best.

Though the fact you seem to consider being able to fly almost two hundred miles per hour unassisted not awesome enough is frankly kind of confusing to me... Why is that not "awesome" sure they won't be able to battle fighter jet's or something, but why do you seem to so fervently believe they should be able too? Really the fact is that in direct combat Nanoha mages even going by SOD are already very powerful compared to most mages and conventional forces.

-They can fly easily this is acutally very rare among most magic users being able to fly at ALL is a big advantage, now they probably can't fight supersonic jets IMO, but being basiclly your own helicopter gunship is hardly shitty IMO...
-They're firepower isn't bad at all high end attack spells "only" being comparable to aircraft weapons in most cases which are basiclly the baddest things on the battlefield is hardly an insult IMO.
-There defenses are reasonably strong as well, though a weakness to kinetic energy is a major drawback. This is acutally the thing that hurts them most IMO basiclly canon shows that stuff like knives and bullets can kill them, against energy weapons common in sci-fi I acutally think they'd do BETTER. That said even here they aren't total shit I have no doubt that various sorts of defensive spells would shrug off bullets at least, but the problem is they have to active to do so, even so being able to summon a bullet proof energy shield on demand is hardly what I'd class as suck...
-While it's not as versatile as some would suggest IMO Nanoha magic none the less has some utility functions. Having said that IMO this is a major blind spot of canon magic. Compared to many styles seen in fiction Nanoha magic is very much geared for combat over much else. One coudl aruge that's becasue most of what we see are combat mages, but the fact is that's really all we can go off of when assessing what it can and can't do.

See to me what Nanoha magic can already do with SOD is more then enough. You though, you seem to be driven by some need to make it more "awesome" even if that means ignoring canon and mountains of evidence. I've been over this before but "monstrous power =/= awesome/good stories".

The basic question I ask is this: Why must magic apparently be inherently or vastly superior to technology in order to tell a good story or create interesting characters in this universe?

That explains it rather well. Chrono's points make a ton more sense with that comic backing it.

Quite.

We've been making C&C references since forever. *Jerks a thumb at Keroko's Ion Cannon Breaker*

They had tailed off a bit recently until the return of our favorite genocidal madman.

Not necissarely, what Cinque meant was that the Type-0 was the first Sentoukijin type to be produced. Ginga herself was not the first. We know that Ginga was not the first Type-0 to be produced, as Quint was said to have stopped 'several' that had gone berserk.

On that note how come any new sort of robot/cyborg must seemingly inevitably go berserk in fiction.. It's never like "flip the switch and it works as designed" it always "Flip the switch the thing goes totally mental for little reason and starts killing everything"

Originally Posted by Keroko

Never played a Phoenix Wright game before, but I am going to let the sharpest mind in RF6 do some logical deductions. With the captain idea scrapped and Tesla back in the Wolkenritter, she'd be great for investigation.

"Funny you should say that… " *TK drums his fingers together before him in a very clichéd super villainous fashion* "It seems we do perhaps think alike on some issues after all."

Which is my idea too, conserving energy. Some people however took it as a sign that mages were slower then heli's.

If they can't fly faster then a Heli even short distances due to energy concerns... How is this really different then not being able to fly really fast to begin with? I've already said they can probably sprint faster, but if they can't fly at high speed for any serious length of time that speed is of questionable value. Again to use a fighter analogue fighter jets have been able to do Mach 2 since the 60s and yet most combat still takes place at under mach one... So yeah they could fight a dog fight at mach 2 in theory, but it never happens in practice due to fuel (energy) concerns.

So it becomes more of an academic thing then a real tactical consideration, sure maybe she can do 400 MPH in theory but she'd be sick as a dog when she got into combat so what good is it?

[Comartemis]

This is acutally the thing that hurts them most IMO basiclly canon shows that stuff like knives and bullets can kill them, against energy weapons common in sci-fi I acutally think they'd do BETTER.

Keep in mind, TK, mass-based "modern" weapons aren't exactly easy to find on Mid-Childa and probably elsewhere in the bureau's sphere of influence. Barrier Jackets with an emphasis on kinetic energy absorption can probably be made if mages need them, they just aren't in high demand in-series due to the general propensity towards magical warfare, Ancient Belka users aside.

They're firepower isn't bad at all high end attack spells "only" being comparable to aircraft weapons in most cases which are basiclly the baddest things on the battlefield is hardly an insult IMO.

Can't argue with that logic...

They had tailed off a bit recently until the return of our favorite genocidal madman.

Has he shown up in any of the local fics?

[Jimmy C]

Originally Posted by Keroko

I'm pretty sure she was talking about the Type-0 line.

Well, it doesn't make sense to me why Clinque would mention that the Type-0 line was the first in the situation she was in at the time. Why do you think she would consider it relavant to her request for assistance from her sisters?

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Tk3997

I don't see why we should assume a training device is total shit or something or even much different then a combat model. Acutally them not be very close makes little sense since what use is the training if it's not as realistic as possible?

Episode 4 direct quote from Rein towards Erio and Caro: "Because you two haven't had any real experience with devices before, we only used the basic frame and provided only minimal functions to let you get used to the feeling."

Training device, minimal functions, and Erio never wielded a device before? B-rank grunts being able to crush a bridge is starting to look more and more likely.

Originally Posted by Tk3997

Not really IMO, but in this case basiclly I was looking to make a bunch of guys sort of like the Fowards stand outs among the rank and file but not combat monsters like the Aces or some of the main OCs. At the time I hadn't heard what the end game levels of the Fowards were so I kind guessed. It seems I was pretty close which makes me happy.

Although do we know if Teana could fly with that rank? I'd think she'd be able to, but can't recall it mentioned if not I'd almost say she has some sort of disability with regards to flight magic or something.

I can't recall it being mentioned either, though kerokanonically Keroko is supposed to teach her after StrikerS.

Originally Posted by Tk3997

Myth? Sorry Keroko you need to get your head out of your ass a Myth implies a lack of proof sadly that's simply not the case the Myth here would acutally be that mages are super fast when damn near ever canon scene we see them flying in shows a speed comparable to helicopters at best.

Please do show me where I said jet fighter speed, I'll gladly correct it. Last I checked I pegged them around 300 KM/H using analysis of scenes in StrikerS. The so called 'proof' of mages being slower then helis was 'oh, they're using helis, so they must be slower then helis' That's not even proof, that's a baseless theory.

Originally Posted by Tk3997

-There defenses are reasonably strong as well, though a weakness to kinetic energy is a major drawback. This is acutally the thing that hurts them most IMO basiclly canon shows that stuff like knives and bullets can kill them, against energy weapons common in sci-fi I acutally think they'd do BETTER. That said even here they aren't total shit I have no doubt that various sorts of defensive spells would shrug off bullets at least, but the problem is they have to active to do so, even so being able to summon a bullet proof energy shield on demand is hardly what I'd class as suck...

Now, I'm not disagreeing with all the points mentioned (heck, I'm agreeing with most) but this one I do disagree with, mostly because kinetics hardly seem to be a 'disadvantage' to mages defenses, judging by the amount of times they get chucked through concrete, fly at 300 KM/H, block misiles. I'd say that magic defenses scale just as well with energy based attacks as with kinetic.

Now, this does not mean that every mage is capable of blocking rounds from a tank, these defenses scale with the mage level, so whereas elite characters would be absolute monsters on a battlefield (due to all the advantages mentioned above, both yours and mine), the grunts would be far less of a threat.

Originally Posted by Tk3997

-While it's not as versatile as some would suggest IMO Nanoha magic none the less has some utility functions. Having said that IMO this is a major blind spot of canon magic. Compared to many styles seen in fiction Nanoha magic is very much geared for combat over much else. One coudl aruge that's becasue most of what we see are combat mages, but the fact is that's really all we can go off of when assessing what it can and can't do.

Dunno, Nanoha seems to stick pretty tight to the regular 'offensive/healing/support' triangle as far as I can see.

Originally Posted by Tk3997

The basic question I ask is this: Why must magic apparently be inherently or vastly superior to technology in o8rder to tell a good story or create interesting characters in this universe?

Superior? No. But to turn the question around: why must it be inferior?

Originally Posted by Tk3997

On that note how come any new sort of robot/cyborg must seemingly inevitably go berserk in fiction.. It's never like "flip the switch and it works as designed" it always "Flip the switch the thing goes totally mental for little reason and starts killing everything"

Murphy's law?

Originally Posted by Comartemis

Has he shown up in any of the local fics?

He's going to, when I finish Uomo's revisions.

Originally Posted by Jimmy C

Well, it doesn't make sense to me why Clinque would mention that the Type-0 line was the first in the situation she was in at the time. Why do you think she would consider it relavant to her request for assistance from her sisters?

Because the Type-0 were the first Sentoukijin ever to be build? Basically, that makes the Type-0 the numbers' big sisters.

[Comartemis]

Dunno, Nanoha seems to stick pretty tight to the regular 'offensive/healing/support' triangle as far as I can see.

I think he means out-of-combat usages, Kero. If the Mid system were limited to the kind of spells we see in the series, it would be essentially useless to civilians. Compare MC to Harry Potter or D&D magic and see how versatile a wizard can be compared to a combat mage.

[Keroko]

To that, I point to Accous and his cake-space, scouting, and mind-reading abillities. Quite versatile, I'd say.

[Evangelion Xgouki]

Originally Posted by Keroko

To that, I point to Accous and his cake-space, scouting, and mind-reading abillities. Quite versatile, I'd say.

Mmmm...cake

[Comartemis]

It's a lie, Eva.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Evangelion Xgouki

Mmmm...cake

Spoiler:

[Evangelion Xgouki]

Originally Posted by Comartemis

It's a lie, Eva.

[Vader]Noooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!![/Vader]

The cake might be a lie, but the cheesecake isn't

[AdmiralTigerclaw]

[Evangelion Xgouki]

Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw

cheesecake >>> pi

[Tk3997]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Episode 4 direct quote from Rein towards Erio and Caro: "Because you two haven't had any real experience with devices before, we only used the basic frame and provided only minimal functions to let you get used to the feeling."

That could mean anything I somehow doubt this "minimal functions" involves crippling there ability to summon magic and use magic. That makes sense: "Here to give you experience using a device we've totally gimped this one so it behaves nothing like a real one."

"Umm how is supposed to help?"

"Idonaknow go with it kid."

Training device, minimal functions, and Erio never wielded a device before? B-rank grunts being able to crush a bridge is starting to look more and more likely.

Nanoha picked one up never having used magic period and started battling evil in like a day... frankly devices do not seem to be that complex to use. That said I also find this fact probably just wrong, how the fuck can he have done basic training and never used a device?! We even see Teana and Subaru in training and they have big boxes full of them that they hand out to students! I refuse to believe that Mid basic training dosen't involve even picking up a device. That's beyond insane into outright retardation, never used an armed device okay maybe I can buy that, but never used one period?!

Please do show me where I said jet fighter speed, I'll gladly correct it. Last I checked I pegged them around 300 KM/H using analysis of scenes in StrikerS. The so called 'proof' of mages being slower then helis was 'oh, they're using helis, so they must be slower then helis' That's not even proof, that's a baseless theory.

Expect that 300 km/h IS slower then the fastest helicopters... opps.

Now, I'm not disagreeing with all the points mentioned (heck, I'm agreeing with most) but this one I do disagree with, mostly because kinetics hardly seem to be a 'disadvantage' to mages defenses, judging by the amount of times they get chucked through concrete, fly at 300 KM/H, block misiles. I'd say that magic defenses scale just as well with energy based attacks as with kinetic.

Expect for all the times people slash swords through them, or get stabbed, or punch each other.

As for the examples:
-We've been over the Fate shit too many times to count as I recall even you admitted it basiclly impossible to really explain and against the rest of canon. Just off the top of my head why did Nanoha seem worried that Subaru and Teana where going to hit a wall, compared to the above the impact would have been like a rough football tackle at most... or why did everyone seemed worried when Erio feel off a cliff, etc.
-Flying at 300 km/h is nothing skydivers can fall that fast with the right posture and gear. (acutally a bit faster so in a nose dive a mage might be able to break 300 MPH)
-Missiles have this habit of destroy themselves then wasting most of there energy in a big blast half of which at least will never hit the barrier... Never mind that the "missiles" if you refer to those fired by the Type-2s where like the size of hand grenades and moved about as fast as a shot from a grenade launcher... Block something like this and then I'll be impressed:

Now, this does not mean that every mage is capable of blocking rounds from a tank, these defenses scale with the mage level, so whereas elite characters would be absolute monsters on a battlefield (due to all the advantages mentioned above, both yours and mine), the grunts would be far less of a threat.

I personally doubt any of them could resist tank of even heavy auto-cannon fire Vita managed to punt a hammer through a barrier and I've claced that out to be WAY less then energy in even a small cannon shell. Of course feel free to come up with some crap about the hammer being an anti-magic hammer or something... In any case they'd need a heavy active defense to even TRY and given the speed real bullets and shells move out they'd be hit before they even heard the cannon fire unless they saw it locking onto them before it did so. Of course if the mage dose it right the tank should never be able to hit them.

I've been over this before, but I've ALWAYS felt that the main edge of a Nanoha mage over most technical foes isn't firepower let alone defense. It's mobility they can't outrun a jet or a really fast heli, but they can get away from almost anything else and kill most of it with some effort. Sending most helicopters against aerial mages would IMO for instance be almost suicidal the mages would be just as quick, more maneuverable, and there fire would be very deadly.

Dunno, Nanoha seems to stick pretty tight to the regular 'offensive/healing/support' triangle as far as I can see.

Which is acutally to my thinking a fairly limited area of “magic” for instance you don’t really see hexes, or curses, or spirits, heavy duty mental magic, potions, time manipulation, etc. It also seems to very rarely truly depart from the realm of physics or utilize the often arbitrary rules you see in other versions. (Like bizarre magical weaknesses) It also basiclly out and out bans certain forms of magic necromancy and the like is right out for instance. So to my thinking Nanoha magic is sort of a “Superhero” form of magic it tends not to have some of the more traditional magical elements.

This has up and downsides on the one hand it means that said traditional elements often seem jarringly at odds with the verse, but on the other hand it’s a more simplified and in some ways interesting setting to write characters in. The lack of various arbitrary rules means that more methods and styles of battle at possible since you don’t get instances of “only one highly specific thing in hugely specific circumstances can affect the enemy” and the like.

This is sort of what I meant but “not as much utility as some people think” basiclly I don’t think a Nanoha mage could say put a hex on someone to give them bad luck or brew up a love potion, but magic can do some interesting non-combat things like scanning, healing, and binding which has it’s uses.

This is also part of what makes it seem weak verse technology IMO for instance you'll hear guys talking about how you can't kill a werewolf even with a nuclear bomb or something, but Nanoha really has nothing like that. It really seems that magic is useful and powerful, but even somewhat lower level technology is hardly impotent against it if used well.

Superior? No. But to turn the question around: why must it be inferior?

This doesn’t really work because see we have a whole pile of evidence that says in some ways it is. You’re the one going around talking about how you want to put the “awesome” back in it, which apparently means making it crap all over everything. So to answer your question why dose it have to be inferior? Because canon evidence tends to say it is in certain aspects, but back to my original question having said that why dose this matter? Why can’t be inferior and still be perfectly usable in a story?

[toran]

Originally Posted by Tk3997

I’d argue it seems a tad redundant as basiclly what you described seems to be the entire mission of the instructor corps already(said corps also dosen't seem large enough to be supporting a bunch of sub-commands either IMO)… I don't mind the idea a ton, but as noted the idea just seems rather redundant to me. As noted advanced training and such is already the mission of the Corps so how is this really markedly different?

Basically I won't dismiss it out of hand, but to my thinking the justification seems flimsy and the mission statement rather vague. "Producing more aces" or more competent mages is something the entire corps ought to be striving for constantly to start with.

I don't think it's redunant.

Actually, I was thinking more along the lines of specializing in mage to mage combat, specifically dogfights. This school doesn't teach what is taught in the instructor corps, it is supposed to go beyond. It's kind of like a finishing school where vets can focus on a smaller groups of mages. Kinda like how RF 6 was, where Nanoha taught them, except larger and the focus is different.

There are no drone simulations. All aerial mock battles are between mages, keeping it so that the battle are unpredictable.

Ever watch that old movie Top Gun? Think of that kind of school. In Top Gun, it was an academy to train pilots in advanced dogfighting. It wasn't redundant since they didn't go over the basics, but focused on the tactics that you don't always learn out in the field and improve on your own experience.

This school is supposed to be just like that.

[Tk3997]

Originally Posted by toran

I don't think it's redunant.

Actually, I was thinking more along the lines of specializing in mage to mage combat, specifically dogfights. This school doesn't teach what is taught in the instructor corps, it is supposed to go beyond. It's kind of like a finishing school where vets can focus on a smaller groups of mages. Kinda like how RF 6 was, where Nanoha taught them, except larger and the focus is different.

There are no drone simulations. All aerial mock battles are between mages, keeping it so that the battle are unpredictable.

My issue with this isn't the sort of the thing the TSAB should be worrying about drones and combat cyborgs are going to be the major Op-For in the future acutally this sort of mage on mage training is likely to disadvantageous as it distracts the students from what they'll likely really be dealing with out in the wild and focuses on an unnaturally clean sort of combat that's more like ritual dueling then real combat. This is exactly the kind of thing that fucked the US early in Vietnam they trained against each other... but the enemy didn't fly F-4s they flew Migs and stuff that worked against another F-4 was suicide against a Mig. I see the same thing happening here these guys come out all buffed up from fighting other mages only to encounter AMF drones and combat borgs and get fucked up.

If anything they should be setting up schools with a focus on counter AMFs, Drones, and Combat Cyborgs not a glorified dueling center. Mage on mage combat like this is also probably really rare most combat is going to be larger scale where coordination and tactics matter more then raw fighting potential.

Ever watch that old movie Top Gun? Think of that kind of school. In Top Gun, it was an academy to train pilots in advanced dogfighting. It wasn't redundant since they didn't go over the basics, but focused on the tactics that you don't always learn out in the field and improve on your own experience.

This school is supposed to be just like that.

That's one approach, but it's not one that's acutally used in most places and it's debatable if it really produces better pilots then just allot of flying time and force wide training dose. Part of the issue is like I said these sorts of things can easily lose touch with how the world really works and the students find that when that acutally get out in the wild most of the stuff they did in training dosen't work when the other guy won't fight the way you're used too.

To be effective you need to be adaptable you should practice dissimilar training as much as possible fighting things as different as possible and hopefully like what you'd acutally face in battle. Fighting against your peers with both of you using the same tactics and skills is acutally pretty useless beyond learning the basics and can in fact breed dangerous complacency as one assumes that the enemy will fight like you (and your training partners) do, and this is a dangerous assumption indeed.

[ghazghkull]

Alright, time for a double release :3

Spoiler for Himemiya Chikane:

Name: Himemiya Chikane
Age: 18
Rank: Lieutenant (Chaplain)
Mage Rank: AA
Gender: Female
Hair Colour: Blue

Personality: *Presently under compilation*

Magic Type: Alocnos
Magic Colour: Purple

History

Born on Administered World 213 Latned, Chikane was born as the planet’s Lunar Child of the deity Ame no Murakumo. Born, on October 1 MC0063 Mid-Childa time, she was logged to have been born at the same time as Kurusugawa Himeko.

From the moment of her birth, she had been raised as the daughter of a goddess. Born into a royal family, she was not only raised to be a powerful warrior, she was also raised to be a princess,, one of regal status, with enough power to have enough political influence to take over the planet, if she so choose. Majority of her childhood had been a sheltered life, spending her days learning the ways of a princess, and as the daughter of a goddess. It wasn’t until her 10th birthday, 2 years before her application to the TSAB Latned Academy that her life had changed.

During her 10th birthday, she had managed to sneak out of the castle she resided in, and had a chance to explore the town, unhindered, especially since her face had never been broadcasted to the planet, and she had dressed herself as a middle-class to blend in with her surroundings. It was around that time she met the Sun Child, Himeko. (For a detailed explanation of Himeko’s past to this point, refer to the profile of Kurusugawa Himeko.)

They had met when Chikane ran into Himeko, having just been thrown out the door from a fight between her and her adoptive mother. The woman had attempted to drag her in, when Chikane had stepped in, swiftly dealing with the woman before taking Himeko away from her. That meeting ended up sparked a strong friendship towards one another, that Chikane had brought Himeko to her home, where she had declared that Himeko would be her personal maid, as a means of protecting, and giving Himeko a means to have a home.

Their lives at that point were not of a relationship between master and servant, but that of two dedicated and loyal friends. Although Himeko had continued her duties, Chikane treated above such status. Chikane treasured Himeko like no other, always protecting her from the dangers of dealing with her family, and also from students from her school that often teased her for a number of things.

Two years later, MC0065, Chikane and Himeko enrolled into the Latned-based Academy. There, she studied heavily in battle tactics, and relied more on the offensive nature of the Alocnos magic system of her home world. She graduated at the top of her grade two years later with full honours, received a magical grade of B-Rank, and was accelerated to Private First Class, although it is strongly believed that due to political pull from her family, she was accelerated in rank. However, it was never proven, not that it had truly mattered due to her performance after her graduation.

Her performance continued to outshine those of her class as she completed mission after mission, assignment after assignment. Among all those in her graduation class, she excelled among all of them, quickly ranking up to Sergeant Major, before she applied for Officer training in MC0078, two years after the cradle incident and obtained her commission as 2nd Lieutenant in MC0079. From there, she continued to storm through assignment after assignment before reaching her present rank of Lieutenant, on January 08 MC0082.

Appearance

*Refer to Barrier Jacket for appearance*

Barrier Jacket

Spoiler for “Himeko and Chikane”:

Note: Right side Himemiya Chikane/Left side Kurusugawa Himeko

Device

Device Name: Ame no Murakumo
Device Type: Armed Device
Weapon Type: Katana
Length: TBA
System: Alocnos S-Type configuration
Storage Mode: Sea-shell pendant

Ame no Murakumo is a twin-device system, native only to Administered World 213 Latned. Designed to operate in two different devices, Ame no Murakumo is part of a system where an AI core is developed and is then spit into two contrasting personalities, normally geared towards the two users of such devices.

When deployed, Ame no Murakumo takes on the form of two separate katana, wielded by its designated users. In terms of operation, it augments and amplifies the special powers the users possess. Also due to the specific nature of Ame no Murakumo, in which it is designed specifically for Himemiya Chikane and Kurusugawa Himeko, it amplifies the White Magic within them.

By definition of the people of Latned, Ame no Murakumo is the weapon of the gods, forged for the soul purpose of the two whom have been marked by the symbols of the Sun and the Moon. There is some religious background to the naming and design purpose of the weapon. According to such background, and folklore, the belief is that every 1000 years, born on the month of the Godless Month, the gods above shall bequeath the world two of their great warriors, whom shall be lovers, whom shall be marked with the symbols of the Sun and the Moon. And with their birth, would be the knowledge to construct Ame no Murakumo.

A more detailed explanation of the device’s purpose is to give the two ‘Chosen One’s’ the power akin to gods. Its power can be said to match the power of a Lost Logia, although it is most likely best to say that the powers of Ame no Murakumo is akin to the powers of Takamachi Vivio’s genetic trait, Rüstung Heiligen (Saint’s Armour).

Spells

Spring Wind: A healing spell. The general purpose of this spell is to heal wounds, such as bruises, deep cuts, first degree burns, or other such minor injuries caused from battle. Due to the nature of the spell, internal injuries cannot be dealt with using this particular spell. Such injuries that require an operation must be performed with a more powerful spell.

Soul Force: One of the Lunar Child’s most offensive spells. Calling upon a special Magical Energy pool sealed within the Lunar Birth Mark on the back of her neck, Chikane forms the armour of Ame no Murakumo, drastically enhancing her combat strength and speed for a short period of time. The length of time is based on the amount of Energy stored prior to activation. However, the length of time can be reduced if additional energy is used up to perform any additional spells that take up a large amount of Energy.

Note:
- Due to the drastic nature of the spell, it is rarely used because it often leaves Chikane physically, spiritually, and magically exhausted for a number of days to a few weeks, depending on the length of time the spell’s been active.

Heaven’s Hand: A spell native to users of the Alocnos System. The spell is a powerful healing spell, with a wide variety of applications, such as setting bones and healing mortal injuries such as internal bleeding, among other things. However, due to the massive power requirements, it is a non-battlefield spell. The time required charging the spell, level of concentration, and power needed to use the spell limits its usage to post-battle operations, and operation room based occasions.

Sacred Ward: A field spell. A type of spell native to Alocnos users, the spell permits the user to cast multiple field spells and place them upon others, providing them a means of protecting should their own defence prove to be insufficient.

Augment Spells: As the spell-type suggests, the user is endowed with a number of support and enhancement spells, to support and augment their team-mates as necessary.

• Hasten: Speed enhancement
• Might: Strength enhancement
• Endurance: Stamina enhancement

Shadow Chain: A restrict spell. As the name of the spell implies, this spell works best in the shadows, or at the very least, the shadow of the target. However, the more shadows, the more effective the spell is, as the user is able to cast more chains, furthering the restriction placed upon a target.

Spoiler for Kurusugawa Himeko:

Name: Kurusugawa Himeko
Age: 18
Rank: Lieutenant (Chaplain)
Mage Rank: AA
Gender: Female
Hair Colour: Auburn

Personality: *Presently under compilation*

Magic Type: Alocnos
Magic Colour: Red

History

Born on Administered World 213 Latned, Himeko was born as the planet’s Solar Child of the deity Ame no Murakumo. Born, on October 1 MC0063 Mid-Childa time, she was logged to have been born at the same time as Himemiya Chikane.

Born into a poor family, Himeko lived mostly in a life of poverty and loneliness. Despite the fact she had been born with the Sun Star on her chest, her family had hidden that knowledge from everyone, teaching her that it had to be hidden until she could find the Lunar Child. She never found out why, for at the age of 6, her parents had passed away, leaving her with a family that had begrudgingly adopted her.

However, for 4 years, she lived in a depressive household. From a colloquial point of view, her life was synonymous to Non-administered Planet 97’s fairy tale character Cinderella. Due to the fact she had hidden her lineage, her family had ended up treating her as a low class servant. Her sub par standards of her life ranged from ragged clothing, damaged bedding, and even stagnant bath water, among other things. Her family had treated her below Servant, but just above animal to avoid trouble with the local law.

For four years, she lived in poverty. Her family continued to abuse her and mistreat her, until her 10th birthday where she had eventually lost her temper, and had wilfully attacked her adoptive mother, while the father was out of the house. The end result was her being thrown out the door due to the fight, which had drawn the attention of Princess Himemiya Chikane, who had been passing by when it happened. The end result was that the princess defended her, to the point she revealed herself through the Lunar Star on her back.

The end result was an immediate friendship that formed between the two, and Chikane used her power and influence and had landed her the ultimate job that would let her stay close to her saviour: the personal servant of Himemiya Chikane. Not only that, the job had also given her something she had longed for since she was six; a place to call home.

In MC0065, she and Chikane enrolled on the Latned-based Academy, where she trained heavily on the offensive nature of the Alocnos Magic, along with Chikane. With Chikane’s help, Himeko graduated in the top 10 of her classes, and left with a ranking of C-Rank. Normally she would’ve entered the service as Private Third Class. However, due to her outstanding performances on her first mission, she was promptly accelerated to the rank of Private Second class. From there, her career began to take flight.

Her performance continued to match that of Chikane as she completed mission after mission, assignment after assignment. Among all those in her graduation class, she was one of the more prominent enlisted that stood out more than others, quickly ranking up to Sergeant Major, before she applied for Officer training in MC0078 with Chikane, two years after the cradle incident and obtained her commission as 2nd Lieutenant in MC0079. From there, she continued to storm through assignment after assignment before reaching her present rank of Lieutenant, on January 08 MC0082.

Appearance

*Refer to Barrier Jacket for appearance*

Barrier Jacket

Spoiler for “Himeko and Chikane”:

Note: Right side Himemiya Chikane/Left side Kurusugawa Himeko

Device

Device Name: Ame no Murakumo
Device Type: Armed Device
Weapon Type: Katana
Length: TBA
System: Alocnos S-Type configuration
Storage Mode: Sea-shell pendant

Ame no Murakumo is a twin-device system, native only to Administered World 213 Latned. Designed to operate in two different devices, Ame no Murakumo is part of a system where an AI core is developed and is then spit into two contrasting personalities, normally geared towards the two users of such devices.

When deployed, Ame no Murakumo takes on the form of two separate katana, wielded by its designated users. In terms of operation, it augments and amplifies the special powers the users possess. Also due to the specific nature of Ame no Murakumo, in which it is designed specifically for Himemiya Chikane and Kurusugawa Himeko, it amplifies the White Magic within them.

By definition of the people of Latned, Ame no Murakumo is the weapon of the gods, forged for the soul purpose of the two whom have been marked by the symbols of the Sun and the Moon. There is some religious background to the naming and design purpose of the weapon. According to such background, and folklore, the belief is that every 1000 years, born on the month of the Godless Month, the gods above shall bequeath the world two of their great warriors, whom shall be lovers, whom shall be marked with the symbols of the Sun and the Moon. And with their birth, would be the knowledge to construct Ame no Murakumo.

A more detailed explanation of the device’s purpose is to give the two ‘Chosen One’s’ the power akin to gods. Its power can be said to match the power of a Lost Logia, although it is most likely best to say that the powers of Ame no Murakumo is akin to the powers of Takamachi Vivio’s genetic trait, Rüstung Heiligen (Saint’s Armour).

Spells

Spring Wind: A healing spell. The general purpose of this spell is to heal wounds, such as bruises, deep cuts, first degree burns, or other such minor injuries caused from battle. Due to the nature of the spell, internal injuries cannot be dealt with using this particular spell. Such injuries that require an operation must be performed with a more powerful spell.

Soul’s Embrace: A technique used strictly by only the Solar Child, Himeko can use this technique to act as a life support system for those whom their bodies have been injured that their bodies would not be able to support themselves. The technique itself allows Himeko to loan her life time to a person whom she’s attempting to save. Although this technique may momentarily extend the life of the person she’s using the ability on, even she has her limits before she must break the spell. On that note, if it is used on a person who’s too far gone to heal, all the technique can do is prolong a person’s life, until Himeko disconnects the spell.

Note:
- Due to the fact that the spell operates by linking Himeko’s life force with the patients diminishing life, it is only used if a patient’s operation is guaranteed to succeed. Otherwise, it is rarely used, unless it is at the wish that a patient may life long enough to say goodbye to their loved ones. However, it is often not practiced due to the excessive time that may require fulfilling such a wish.

Heaven’s Hand: A spell native to users of the Alocnos System. The spell is a powerful healing spell, with a wide variety of applications, such as setting bones and healing mortal injuries such as internal bleeding, among other things. However, due to the massive power requirements, it is a non-battlefield spell. The time required charging the spell, level of concentration, and power needed to use the spell limits its usage to post-battle operations, and operation room based occasions.

Sacred Ward: A field spell. A type of spell native to Alocnos users, the spell permits the user to cast multiple field spells and place them upon others, providing them a means of protecting should their own defence prove to be insufficient.

Augment Spells: As the spell-type suggests, the user is endowed with a number of support and enhancement spells, to support and augment their team-mates as necessary.

• Hasten: Speed enhancement
• Might: Strength enhancement
• Endurance: Stamina enhancement

Shadow Chain: A restrict spell. As the name of the spell implies, this spell works best in the shadows, or at the very least, the shadow of the target. However, the more shadows, the more effective the spell is, as the user is able to cast more chains, furthering the restriction placed upon a target.

[LimitedEternal]

Originally Posted by Kha

This Khrack works... This Khrack works... This Khrack works... This Khrack works... This Khrack works...

You know, some Khrack does actually work, on it's face.

It just usually requires a dose of sanity first.

My bottomline is: I believe anything in Science can be recreated in magic quite well.

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. Works just as well flipped the other way, too.

Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw

Jar Jar Binks IS entertaining... at least... when I'm practicing my rifle marksmanship or grenade throwing.

A stupid poll I read a long time ago had "sucked into a podracer engine" as the number one way people wanted to see Binks go. :3

Originally Posted by Wild Goose

Except for Kha. Everything he does is crack - a special brand, in fact, called Khrack, a name I came up with - and thus is rarely taken seriously.

Well, some of his Khrack does work, like I said. Just don't forget garnishes like fish-shaped sanity, fish-shaped ethylbenzene-

*shot*

And TK: AFAIK, I'm the only person to call Nanoha Beamspam-chan....

And a more fitting nickname there ain't. ()

Originally Posted by ghazghkull

*Whacks Goose* Get a hold of yourself man!

You're not old! You're only old when you're all shriveled up like a prune, and wear dentures!

Goose, coma back in sixty years and tell us you're old. We might believe you then.

Originally Posted by Kha

Goose, Kha has been remade 4 times and I do believe he's not Khrack by now. In fact, if it can make it into Rebuilt, it's not Khrack. It does help to try reading my spoilered material you know.

Cos recently I realized I'm getting ignored when I've tried to turn over a new leaf and go serious. And that completely destroys the point of going serious, even posting in the first place. -_-

*smacks Kha*

Now don't you start going emo again.

It just seems out of place because we're so used to your off-the-wall crack. Keep writing, and I bet it'll catch on before long.

Originally Posted by Keroko

Aparently you haven't read Keroko's profile yet, nor checked out one of her profile images.

Spoiler:

Now, do pay close atention to the patch on her right arm. :3

I missed that till now!

Slow, low firing rate, limited ground-to-air defenses... I'd say its toast, really.

I wouldn't fight mages with them...that's what superweapons are for.

Mages pwn.

Yup. I bet a properly trained mage could take out a tank without breaking a sweat.

'Cause Chrono said so.

Anyway, rejection was not the only problem. Chrono and Carim noted that while the combination of machinery and biotechnollogy is nothing special, like artificial organs or bones, most of the times they merely compensate for lost abillities, and are a long way from strengthening. Rejection and maintenance during long-term use were then noted to be another problem. I think the main part is the long-term use bit.

Really? When did he say all this?

Originally Posted by PhoenixFlare

A second point of information . Considering that Mid-childa is almost a parallel to Earth in many aspects (barring sophisticated technology and magic), would it be reasonable to actually incorporate some similar history to Mid-childa, such as its early progression (Paleolithic to the Bronze Age, the Middle Ages, etc.)? I have some use of this issue, since it's part of the explanation Yuuno is supposed to give during their meeting.

I don't see why not. Even the Tau went through the "uwaa we make fire!" stages.

Originally Posted by Kha

That's one way or by doing things both ways: Add appropiate glycoproteins to the biometal of the Machine Core, then get the nascent thyroid glands of the growing cyborg to destroy all antibodies that target those glycoproteins. Of course the biometal must also be structured such that it does not trigger the in vitro clotting system...

Looks like med school pays off, huh? :3

*runs*

Originally Posted by Keroko

*shrug* It was only a joke scenario anyway. Magic Damage has always been an inconsitent ellement in Nanoha. Sometimes it damages mages, but not the suroundings, other times it's the reverse.

Ah, the wonderful world of plotholes.

Less hassle with the biological aspect perhaps? Beter interfacing? After all, all we've seen as maintenance is Subaru and Teana lying down on a scanning table or something. Immume system's could be a problem too, and maybe the bodies need to be adjusted because a normal human body simply can't handle the stress the mechanical parts place on the organic parts.

Good point. Reminds me of how humans never use more than a fraction of our potential muscle power because we'd tear ourselves apart.

Originally Posted by Kha

I tightened it in Rebuilt such that Magical Damage only spares living flesh. That deals with most situations, but it creates an interesting side-effect: Sentokijin end up taking more damage from MD due to their biometal parts.

Which means Subaru almost kills Ginga with that gutbuster, and don't expect Quattro to survive that Blaster Three, Tre that blade counter of Kha's and Uno that Tenjyo Tenge Maryoku Musou Ken of Teresa's.

Especially Tre. She must die for Emo-Sette to kick into gear. :3

And don't worry about them; Kagerou already "Sunrised" Due, so mortal damage isn't gonna stop the Sentokijin from returning in future. >3

...wait, is this Khrack? If it is, I better drop it before it gets worse, so do tell me now.

So magic beats cyborgs, huh? That's an interesting interpretation.

And it doesn't seem excessively Khracky. I think you're mistaking crack in all it's myriad forms to be outright unusable, rather than just crazy.

Nothing like putting those barely comprehensible lectures of subjects that I won't be bothered to explain to patients to good use. >3

Mad Doc Kha: [ten-minute medical explanation goes here]

Patient: HUH????

Mad Doc Kha: ...you've got three days to live.

Patient: I liked it better when you were spitting gibberish.

:3

*runs*

Originally Posted by Keroko

They don't seem to fall under any division. We know there are Navy Enforcers, Air Force Enforces, Heck even Ground Force Enforcers.

Which gives a lot of liberty, really. You can have a character in any division and still be an Enforcer.

So for all intents and purposes, an Enforcer doesn't have anything beyond a license and a lot of leeway?

Originally Posted by Evangelion Xgouki

Reflects the Pryoblast back

I like the hair on my head, thank you

[Pyromaniac]HAH! You reflected a "Pryoblast!" You still get to BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUURN![/Pyromaniac]

Originally Posted by Tk3997

The forwards are in many ways anomalies the Manga and Show basiclly say as much in that they have enormous potential and that's why they're around. As I recall you yourself noted not long ago that they'd advanced hugely in rank during the series with the older ones apparently gaining three or four ranks in about a year. These kids are clearly not the run of the mil cannon fodder of the TSAB you're likely to encounter on mass...

That said I do rather like them as it shows that if you have much potential at all you can with good training progress quickly in rank, it makes allot of my new OCs who are in there early 20s and mostly ranked A to AA+ seems allot more plausible.

Well, most nine-year-olds aren't gonna be packing that much raw talent, so I agree with you there.

But it is good that that talent means you can progress quickly.

Yeah... and then it's up to us to try and come up with some vaugely plausible way to explain all this, thanks a fucking ton 7Arcs.

[Gendou Ikari]That is why Cadia exists.[/Gendou Ikari]

You've probably hit the nail on the head with that last bit... Rather the explain it myself I'll let someone far more knowledge then I do so by-proxy.

Spoiler for Size:

Basically sticking the parts in is only half the battle and adding an artificial arm or something won't give you super strength at least not unless the rest of the body has been modified to handle the additions. As Chrono himself noted what made this stuff new was that it was exceeding or improving rather then merely replacing some function of the human body.

Nice to see even they don't have stuff like that figured out...more room for us to do it. :3

Keroko has spies everywhere it seems... or he's full of crap one or the other.

Why not both??? :3

*runs*

Originally Posted by Comartemis

Did I miss something, or are we making C&C references now?

Spoiler for Dancing Kane!:

We have been for some time, but when Kane's Wrath came out a few days ago, we got a surge of it.

Originally Posted by Sheba

Are you going to be the prosecutor in a Phoenix Wright parody?

OBJECTION!

:3

Originally Posted by Jimmy C

It could be for reasons other than speed. They might prefer to save their strength for combat when they get there, instead of bleeding it to get there fast. If you're talking about ep4-5, the Forwards can't fly, remember? Nanoha probably figured there's no point in zipping ahead too early.

Point. Personally, I don't think flying is a huge burden on a high-ranked mage, maybe because the drain to fly is either somewhat insignificant at this point or they can regenerate the mana used to fly faster than flying drains it. Either way, though, it still makes sense to get to a scene at full strength, especially if it's not time-critical.

Originally Posted by Tk3997

I don't see why we should assume a training device is total shit or something or even much different then a combat model. Acutally them not be very close makes little sense since what use is the training if it's not as realistic as possible?

I was under the impression that the training Devices were fairly close to the real things, just with limiters on and not ramped up to max power.

On that note how come any new sort of robot/cyborg must seemingly inevitably go berserk in fiction.. It's never like "flip the switch and it works as designed" it always "Flip the switch the thing goes totally mental for little reason and starts killing everything"

Umm...maybe they think people want to see crazed bots rather than normal ones???

If they can't fly faster then a Heli even short distances due to energy concerns... How is this really different then not being able to fly really fast to begin with? I've already said they can probably sprint faster, but if they can't fly at high speed for any serious length of time that speed is of questionable value. Again to use a fighter analogue fighter jets have been able to do Mach 2 since the 60s and yet most combat still takes place at under mach one... So yeah they could fight a dog fight at mach 2 in theory, but it never happens in practice due to fuel (energy) concerns.

So it becomes more of an academic thing then a real tactical consideration, sure maybe she can do 400 MPH in theory but she'd be sick as a dog when she got into combat so what good is it?

I seriously doubt a mage could go anywhere near that fast, especially without being "sick as a dog."

I would guess, to put my two cents into this whole debate, that a mage can fly a good bit faster than a heli, although I don't know what kind of baseline to use for a heli, and at full speed it's likely gonna outrun a mage. But a good mage is likely able to fly pretty fast.

I also think that a mage able to fly can likely do so for a long time; if you can summon the energy for dimensional transport, which can't be easy, you can likely stay airborne for a good while.

Originally Posted by Keroko

To that, I point to Accous and his cake-space, scouting, and mind-reading abillities. Quite versatile, I'd say.

Isn't that his job? (Well, minus the cake bit, because as we all know, the cake is a lie. :3)

Originally Posted by Tk3997

Which is acutally to my thinking a fairly limited area of “magic” for instance you don’t really see hexes, or curses, or spirits, heavy duty mental magic, potions, time manipulation, etc. It also seems to very rarely truly depart from the realm of physics or utilize the often arbitrary rules you see in other versions. (Like bizarre magical weaknesses) It also basiclly out and out bans certain forms of magic necromancy and the like is right out for instance. So to my thinking Nanoha magic is sort of a “Superhero” form of magic it tends not to have some of the more traditional magical elements.

This has up and downsides on the one hand it means that said traditional elements often seem jarringly at odds with the verse, but on the other hand it’s a more simplified and in some ways interesting setting to write characters in. The lack of various arbitrary rules means that more methods and styles of battle at possible since you don’t get instances of “only one highly specific thing in hugely specific circumstances can affect the enemy” and the like.

This is sort of what I meant but “not as much utility as some people think” basiclly I don’t think a Nanoha mage could say put a hex on someone to give them bad luck or brew up a love potion, but magic can do some interesting non-combat things like scanning, healing, and binding which has it’s uses.

This is also part of what makes it seem weak verse technology IMO for instance you'll hear guys talking about how you can't kill a werewolf even with a nuclear bomb or something, but Nanoha really has nothing like that. It really seems that magic is useful and powerful, but even somewhat lower level technology is hardly impotent against it if used well.

You do make a good point here: We don't see a lot in the way of traditional, "sorcery" style magic; Nanohaverse magic takes "magic is technology" to a pretty high end.

Which leads me to ask: Is there any evidence that magic of this type couldn't exist? Would it be feasible for a mage to use hexes or other "arcane" forms of magic?

[Comartemis]

Which leads me to ask: Is there any evidence that magic of this type couldn't exist? Would it be feasible for a mage to use hexes or other "arcane" forms of magic?

Decrease-type support magic already exists, but classic hexes like bad luck spells? Dunno.

I too would like an answer for this particular question due to... wait for it.... another character idea!

This time it's a scrying specialist with support magic and really effing powerful area search spells (but no real offensive power of virtually any kind), who acts kinda like a human AWACS unit. Any thoughts?

[Keroko]

Hmmm, a slight re-reading of the manga brought something to my atention concerning something we'd been wondering about for a while, namely 'is flying an A-rank skill?'

Spoiler for IS: Silver Retriever:

In this scan, Shari says that if you're not A-ranked or above, it is difficult to start flight training right away which means that even C-ranks can fly, you just can't start the training unless you're either A-ranked or have enough experience.

This helps explain a lot of things we were wondering.

Originally Posted by Tk3997

That could mean anything I somehow doubt this "minimal functions" involves crippling there ability to summon magic and use magic. That makes sense: "Here to give you experience using a device we've totally gimped this one so it behaves nothing like a real one."

"Umm how is supposed to help?"

"Idonaknow go with it kid."

Oh, so you want to give a kid who has never wielded a sword before a sharp real sword? Last I checked people used practice swords, which kinda have the tendency to be less dangerous then the real deal. And yes, that does mean that those devices limit their abillity to summon magic, because as Rein said, they needed to get used to it.

Anyway, I did a bit of research into the attack, and its pretty useless in a combat stuation anyway:


スピーアシュナイデン - Speerschneiden
(StS DVD1)
A slashing attack using Strada. A high powered attack, but at Erio’s current level of ability, forming a magic array and a long charge is necessary, and therefore it is not suitable for direct combat usage. However, it is still useful for breaking through obstructions and similar objects. Among the four forward members, only Erio has attributes suitable for “cutting”, which he actively uses.

Originally Posted by Tk3997

Nanoha picked one up never having used magic period and started battling evil in like a day... frankly devices do not seem to be that complex to use. That said I also find this fact probably just wrong, how the fuck can he have done basic training and never used a device?! We even see Teana and Subaru in training and they have big boxes full of them that they hand out to students! I refuse to believe that Mid basic training dosen't involve even picking up a device. That's beyond insane into outright retardation, never used an armed device okay maybe I can buy that, but never used one period?!

Basic magic training Tk, basic magic training. As in 'sitting in class studying' basic training. Not combat training with weapons. We know magic doesn't 'need' a device, Yuuno shows us that every time he goes into action, so the basics can be thought without them. Hell, Rein even says the kid has no experience with them, which makes your argument rather moot.

Originally Posted by Tk3997

Expect that 300 km/h IS slower then the fastest helicopters... opps.

So what is the top speed of the fastest helicopter? I'm not a militairy nut, heck, I didn't even know that people sat in the center of a tank.

Originally Posted by Tk3997

Expect for all the times people slash swords through them, or get stabbed, or punch each other.

... and create minor scratches and bruises at best most of the times. Besides, that is easilly explained with 'its a magic weapon, we know those things can slice through steel' explanation.

Originally Posted by Tk3997

As for the examples:
-We've been over the Fate shit too many times to count as I recall even you admitted it basiclly impossible to really explain and against the rest of canon. Just off the top of my head why did Nanoha seem worried that Subaru and Teana where going to hit a wall, compared to the above the impact would have been like a rough football tackle at most... or why did everyone seemed worried when Erio feel off a cliff, etc.

I never admited that it was impossible to explain. Hell, I explained it in multiple ways. Nanoha doesn't seem to worried that Teana and Subaru are going to hit that wall either, doesn't she seem a tad too casual for someone watching two people who are about to break limbs? Erio... you do realize that everyone was very quick to say 'don't worry' right?

Originally Posted by Tk3997

-Flying at 300 km/h is nothing skydivers can fall that fast with the right posture and gear. (acutally a bit faster so in a nose dive a mage might be able to break 300 MPH)

Oh, so now its nothing all of a sudden? What happened to 'you're underestimating how fast 300 KM/H is'

Originally Posted by Tk3997

I personally doubt any of them could resist tank of even heavy auto-cannon fire Vita managed to punt a hammer through a barrier and I've claced that out to be WAY less then energy in even a small cannon shell. Of course feel free to come up with some crap about the hammer being an anti-magic hammer or something... In any case they'd need a heavy active defense to even TRY and given the speed real bullets and shells move out they'd be hit before they even heard the cannon fire unless they saw it locking onto them before it did so. Of course if the mage dose it right the tank should never be able to hit them.

Here I'm using Ark's explanation for active Barriers: The Device deploys the Barrier, which can react in hundreds of seconds.

Originally Posted by Tk3997

I've been over this before, but I've ALWAYS felt that the main edge of a Nanoha mage over most technical foes isn't firepower let alone defense. It's mobility they can't outrun a jet or a really fast heli, but they can get away from almost anything else and kill most of it with some effort. Sending most helicopters against aerial mages would IMO for instance be almost suicidal the mages would be just as quick, more maneuverable, and there fire would be very deadly.

So which is it? On one hand you're saying 'magic users don't stand a chance against tech' and on the other you're saying 'mages could beat the crap out of tech'

Originally Posted by Tk3997

Which is acutally to my thinking a fairly limited area of “magic” for instance you don’t really see hexes, or curses, or spirits, heavy duty mental magic, potions, time manipulation, etc. It also seems to very rarely truly depart from the realm of physics or utilize the often arbitrary rules you see in other versions. (Like bizarre magical weaknesses) It also basiclly out and out bans certain forms of magic necromancy and the like is right out for instance. So to my thinking Nanoha magic is sort of a “Superhero” form of magic it tends not to have some of the more traditional magical elements.

This has up and downsides on the one hand it means that said traditional elements often seem jarringly at odds with the verse, but on the other hand it’s a more simplified and in some ways interesting setting to write characters in. The lack of various arbitrary rules means that more methods and styles of battle at possible since you don’t get instances of “only one highly specific thing in hugely specific circumstances can affect the enemy” and the like.

This is sort of what I meant but “not as much utility as some people think” basiclly I don’t think a Nanoha mage could say put a hex on someone to give them bad luck or brew up a love potion, but magic can do some interesting non-combat things like scanning, healing, and binding which has it’s uses.

No arguments here.

Originally Posted by Tk3997

This is also part of what makes it seem weak verse technology IMO for instance you'll hear guys talking about how you can't kill a werewolf even with a nuclear bomb or something, but Nanoha really has nothing like that. It really seems that magic is useful and powerful, but even somewhat lower level technology is hardly impotent against it if used well.

This doesn’t really work because see we have a whole pile of evidence that says in some ways it is. You’re the one going around talking about how you want to put the “awesome” back in it, which apparently means making it crap all over everything. So to answer your question why dose it have to be inferior? Because canon evidence tends to say it is in certain aspects, but back to my original question having said that why dose this matter? Why can’t be inferior and still be perfectly usable in a story?

Perhaps 'awesome' was not the right word. What I meant was drawing it away from the current standart of 'lol, even a punk with a gun could totally own a trained mage 'cause the gun is superior' to 'the one with the best training/situation with the gears at hand wins'