AnimeSuki Forums

Tormenk · 2015-12-20, 02:52

Anyone can explain the use of Yume Watari to me? If it's a companion blade to Kokoro Watari, does it mean it's able to resurrect any oddity?

DeliriousEagle · 2015-12-20, 11:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tormenk

Anyone can explain the use of Yume Watari to me? If it's a companion blade to Kokoro Watari, does it mean it's able to resurrect any oddity?

It is able to revive oddities. Why was it made originally? Who knows, but it is used by Gaen.

karice67 · 2015-12-31, 19:47

I just found out (from someone who reviewed the book) that the KizuMonogatari translators put Araragi's famous phrase as “Making friends would lower my intensity as a human,” as opposed to the "...means that my strength as a human will decrease."

After watching Ougi Formula, though, where we learn about the incident that led Araragi to start using this phrase as a pretext for isolating himself, I don't think either of those translations really captures what I feel he meant. I'm not sure if I can explain it that well, so I was wondering what some of you thought, especially those of you who can read the original Japanese novels? (if you're still around, that is)

Shikijin · 2016-01-01, 05:06

Translator of Kizu, here. The translation I used is If you make friends, your strength as a human will decrease. Omimon might have translated that differently before me.

The original motto is 友達はいらない人間強度が下がるから. "強度", literally meaning "degree of strength" (translated as "strength" or "intensity" by my vocabulary), is a word that doesn't have any practical meaning associated with the word human, but one could guess what it means on a figurative level.

Probably it could have a better translation, but at this point I don't translate anymore.

karice67 · 2016-01-01, 06:24

Thanks for replying. But what I'm actually curious about is what you think he meant figuratively.

I read your translation back in the day -- before Vertical licensed it and it was taken down -- and I did understand that 強度 is not normally associated with 'people' in the way that Araragi has used it. I looked it up myself when I translated Hyakumonogatari 4-5 years ago, and I remember reading some Japanese fans suggesting that he meant something like "if I make friends, I'll be weak because they can be used against me." And I thought it was fine at the time...but that doesn't really fit with the incident that triggered it, which we find out about in Ougi Formula.

I have a hypothesis as to what he actually meant, but I wanted to ask first if anyone else had changed their mind about it after reading Ougi Formula.

Shikijin · 2016-01-01, 06:56

In Nisemonogatari we found out Araragi's parents are cops. I assumed he meant that if someone misbehaves the law must punish him, but by making friends with other people it is going to be harder to police them.

I assumed Araragi was aiming to become a cop like his parents, so he was preparing himself to a life of loneliness.

Kamieichi · 2016-01-01, 08:20

It's not like I have always had this thought. I just thought up, but......

Maybe, it's better not to try to connect "人間強度が下がるから"(not including "友達はいらない") to the incident. He first used the motto in Kizumonogatari when Hanekawa asked a reason of not making any friends, but I think "人間強度が下がるから" is just his Chunibyou-like excuse, or more like fake, playing dumb because he didn't have any intention to tell the real reason to anyone. The incident was something he never wanted to talk about.
Of course, in front of Ougi, the nemesis of lies and faking-ups, it was futile.

Images

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

To be honest, I doubt even Nisioisin thought about the reason of Araragi getting the motto (IOW, the story of Ougi Formula) when he was writing Kizu. Or I underestimate Nisio too much? (Kizu published in 2008, Owari(Part 1) published in 2013)

Anyway the link here may be more helpful than my thought. All three answers are convincing for each.
http://detail.chiebukuro.yahoo.co.jp...l/q11151084956

karice67 · 2016-01-02, 01:50

Personally, I really didn't think too deeply about it until Ougi Formula -- I just took it at face value, figuring that it was just part of his Chuunibyou period (like you've said, Kamieichi).

But after Ougi Formula, I couldn't help thinking that what he meant by 「人間強度」is related to his ideal that what distinguishes humans from other beings is that they do what is 'right'. And that if humans just go along with each other, then making friends would lower his ability to do what he knows is right because he'd want to go along with them too. Or something along those lines.

「人間強度が下がる」 does sound very Chuunibyou, and it does feel like something he might have thought up as an excuse to get Hanekawa off his back in Kizumonogatari. But even if that is the case, I don't think it diminishes the feelings he had behind it all that much, that sense of despair he claims to have felt from finding out that 'There is no such thing as righteousness: rather, what is right is simply what the majority feels to be right'.

But I'm really not sure how that fits with the later notion that "even if one's 「人間強度」 goes down, it's better to make friends," so I'm not dismissing other interpretations of it...

I'm also not sure whether Nisio would have thought through Araragi's saying that deeply when he first wrote it for Kizu. The only way to know would be to ask him directly, I would think... But don't most writers have a broad picture of what drives their characters before they're able to really write them? Like, if Nisio had decided that Araragi was a loner, then he'd have developed a reason for him to be a loner, even if the finer details of why he became one are kicked down the track, so-to-speak.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamieichi

Images

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

Yeah, "screw-up" doesn't have the meaning of ごまかし, so I'd agree with you that this was a mistake.

Marcus H. · 2016-01-02, 02:03

I think "ningen kyoudou" can instead be interpreted as being "more or less human". In this case, 「人間強度が下がる」means "being less human". Remember Yotsugi's reminder in Tsukimonogatari (i.e. Yotsugi not wanting Koyomi to be a monster by killing Tadatsuru herself)? I feel that it's related to that.

Shikijin · 2016-01-02, 04:26

I definitively think Nisio didn't think that far at the time. In fact, he planned to end the series with Nise.

Judging from what we discussed here, maybe a better translation for 強度 would be "integrity".

Altima of the Gates · 2016-01-06, 15:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeliriousEagle

It is able to revive oddities. Why was it made originally? Who knows, but it is used by Gaen.

I have a theory about that. I mean, some oddities, like gods and guardian spirits, have important jobs to take of, right? Wouldn't a tool to bring them back in essence be a safeguard of some sort in case things got really bad?

But then that does make one wonder why no one ever used it to revive the god of the Shirahebi shrine.

Spoiler:

DeliriousEagle · 2016-01-07, 19:37

Seems like for Waza it will have a Hanekawa and Karen pov as well.

Didn't notice the spoiler, woops sorry Altima. Feel silly making the same post as someone before me.

Anyway this is what you meant right?

Altima of the Gates · 2016-01-12, 14:36

Yeah, I meant that, the guy's blog went dark that I found it on, but was mysteriously restored.

Either way, nice pics.

Marcus H. · 2016-01-12, 19:08

六百年ほど前、今はもう滅びた国に「うつくし姫」と呼ばれる女の子がいました。

About 600 years ago, this now-destroyed country was where the girl called the "Beautiful Princess" had lived.

Vallen Chaos Valiant · 2016-01-14, 05:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tormenk

Anyone can explain the use of Yume Watari to me? If it's a companion blade to Kokoro Watari, does it mean it's able to resurrect any oddity?

It is the "Undo" button. It doesn't resurrect, it undo the killed state caused by its sister blade. So basically if you change your mind after killing a monster, you can reverse it.

DeliriousEagle · 2016-01-14, 15:14

Seems like the ride is still not over.

moodie · 2016-01-14, 19:23

Wazamonogatari released today, announces upcoming books with Nademonogatari and Musubimonogatari.

damn shaft will always have new material lol

DeliriousEagle · 2016-01-15, 02:47

Bet that one of the release dates will be around when part 2 of Kizu comes out.

Altima of the Gates · 2016-01-17, 08:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeliriousEagle

Seems like the ride is still not over.

He could easily turn this story into a saga that goes far into the future.
Heck, I have a few ideas he could use that could make at least 4 more books viable.

DeliriousEagle · 2016-01-17, 10:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Altima of the Gates

He could easily turn this story into a saga that goes far into the future.
Heck, I have a few ideas he could use that could make at least 4 more books viable.

Seems like we are probably going vamp orientated again in the future from the sayings. If that was one of you ideas, good chance it is happening.

Spoiler for Findings:

Probably in the future of more of a summary from someone. I honestly hope its beyond the timeline of Hana as that would make things interesting. Makes me wonder where is Nisio going with this. Part of me hopes Araragi loses his humanity, though that is what I would like to see. I always had somewhat of a dislike how Araragi tries to be human while always staying Vamp. Either way, interesting times ahead.

Spoiler for Nip sum:

2015-12-20, 02:52	Link #3201
Tormenk Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Gaf's Room	Anyone can explain the use of Yume Watari to me? If it's a companion blade to Kokoro Watari, does it mean it's able to resurrect any oddity? __________________ "Are you afraid of change? Or are you afraid to change?" "Wheel turns, river flows and life goes on." "Best way to kill a man, is to leave him alone." "Until you come, until we close our eyes."

2015-12-31, 19:47	Link #3203
karice67 さっく♥ゆうきゃん♥ほそやん Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: in the land down under...	I just found out (from someone who reviewed the book) that the KizuMonogatari translators put Araragi's famous phrase as “Making friends would lower my intensity as a human,” as opposed to the "...means that my strength as a human will decrease." After watching Ougi Formula, though, where we learn about the incident that led Araragi to start using this phrase as a pretext for isolating himself, I don't think either of those translations really captures what I feel he meant. I'm not sure if I can explain it that well, so I was wondering what some of you thought, especially those of you who can read the original Japanese novels? (if you're still around, that is) __________________ *How Suetsugu Yuki drew the cover for Chihayafuru* volume 34** Interview translations etc You must free yourself from that illusion, from the illusion that a story must have a beginning and an end. "No, you are not entitled to your opinion... You are only entitled to what you can argue for.” - Patrick Stokes

2016-01-01, 06:24	Link #3205
karice67 さっく♥ゆうきゃん♥ほそやん Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: in the land down under...	Thanks for replying. But what I'm actually curious about is what you think he meant figuratively. I read your translation back in the day -- before Vertical licensed it and it was taken down -- and I did understand that 強度 is not normally associated with 'people' in the way that Araragi has used it. I looked it up myself when I translated Hyakumonogatari 4-5 years ago, and I remember reading some Japanese fans suggesting that he meant something like "if I make friends, I'll be weak because they can be used against me." And I thought it was fine at the time...but that doesn't really fit with the incident that triggered it, which we find out about in Ougi Formula. I have a hypothesis as to what he actually meant, but I wanted to ask first if anyone else had changed their mind about it after reading Ougi Formula. __________________ *How Suetsugu Yuki drew the cover for Chihayafuru* volume 34** Interview translations etc You must free yourself from that illusion, from the illusion that a story must have a beginning and an end. "No, you are not entitled to your opinion... You are only entitled to what you can argue for.” - Patrick Stokes Last edited by karice67; 2016-01-01 at 06:52.

2016-01-02, 02:03	Link #3209
Marcus H. Princess or Plunderer? Join Date: May 2009 Location: the Philippines	I think "ningen kyoudou" can instead be interpreted as being "more or less human". In this case, 「人間強度が下がる」means "being less human". Remember Yotsugi's reminder in Tsukimonogatari (i.e. Yotsugi not wanting Koyomi to be a monster by killing Tadatsuru herself)? I feel that it's related to that. __________________ Continuing: White Sand Aquatope (6/24) and Vanitas S2 (0/12), The Vampire Dies in No Time S2 and Bofuri S2 (3/12). 2021: Restaurant to Another World S2 (3/12), takt Op. Destiny (1/12) and Taisho Maiden Fairy Tale (1/12). 2022: Yuusha Yamemasu (1/12), Kaguya-sama S3, Mob Psycho 100 III (Oct06), Bleach: 1000 Year Blood War (2/13) and Chainsaw Man (6/12). Spring 2023: Yamada-kun to Lv999 no Koi wo Suru, Kuma Kuma Kuma Bear Punch! (4/12), Skip to Loafer, Tonikaku Kawaii S2 (1/12), Otonari ni Ginga (5/12) and Kimi wa Houkago Insomnia (3/13). Contact me on Wikia and MyAnimeList. Anime List Status ~ Watching: 33. Completed: 468. Plan to watch: 39.

2016-01-07, 19:37	Link #3212
DeliriousEagle Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: The forest or any tree really	Seems like for Waza it will have a Hanekawa and Karen pov as well. Didn't notice the spoiler, woops sorry Altima. Feel silly making the same post as someone before me. Anyway this is what you meant right? Last edited by DeliriousEagle; 2016-01-10 at 09:37. Reason: Silly mistake

2016-01-01, 05:06	Link #3204
Shikijin Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2010	Translator of Kizu, here. The translation I used is If you make friends, your strength as a human will decrease. Omimon might have translated that differently before me. The original motto is 友達はいらない人間強度が下がるから. "強度", literally meaning "degree of strength" (translated as "strength" or "intensity" by my vocabulary), is a word that doesn't have any practical meaning associated with the word human, but one could guess what it means on a figurative level. Probably it could have a better translation, but at this point I don't translate anymore.

2016-01-01, 06:56	Link #3206
Shikijin Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2010	In Nisemonogatari we found out Araragi's parents are cops. I assumed he meant that if someone misbehaves the law must punish him, but by making friends with other people it is going to be harder to police them. I assumed Araragi was aiming to become a cop like his parents, so he was preparing himself to a life of loneliness.

2016-01-01, 08:20	Link #3207
Kamieichi Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2013	It's not like I have always had this thought. I just thought up, but...... Maybe, it's better not to try to connect "人間強度が下がるから"(not including "友達はいらない") to the incident. He first used the motto in Kizumonogatari when Hanekawa asked a reason of not making any friends, but I think "人間強度が下がるから" is just his Chunibyou-like excuse, or more like fake, playing dumb because he didn't have any intention to tell the real reason to anyone. The incident was something he never wanted to talk about. Of course, in front of Ougi, the nemesis of lies and faking-ups, it was futile. Images Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload? To be honest, I doubt even Nisioisin thought about the reason of Araragi getting the motto (IOW, the story of Ougi Formula) when he was writing Kizu. Or I underestimate Nisio too much? (Kizu published in 2008, Owari(Part 1) published in 2013) Anyway the link here may be more helpful than my thought. All three answers are convincing for each. http://detail.chiebukuro.yahoo.co.jp...l/q11151084956

2016-01-02, 04:26	Link #3210
Shikijin Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2010	I definitively think Nisio didn't think that far at the time. In fact, he planned to end the series with Nise. Judging from what we discussed here, maybe a better translation for 強度 would be "integrity".

2016-01-12, 14:36	Link #3213
Altima of the Gates Casting a spell on you... Graphic Designer Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Where there are no mallets or tentacles.... and the female cast of Tenjou Tenge is mine, all mine! Age: 40	Yeah, I meant that, the guy's blog went dark that I found it on, but was mysteriously restored. Either way, nice pics.

2016-01-12, 19:08	Link #3214
Marcus H. Princess or Plunderer? Join Date: May 2009 Location: the Philippines	六百年ほど前、今はもう滅びた国に「うつくし姫」と呼ばれる女の子がいました。 About 600 years ago, this now-destroyed country was where the girl called the "Beautiful Princess" had lived. __________________ Continuing: White Sand Aquatope (6/24) and Vanitas S2 (0/12), The Vampire Dies in No Time S2 and Bofuri S2 (3/12). 2021: Restaurant to Another World S2 (3/12), takt Op. Destiny (1/12) and Taisho Maiden Fairy Tale (1/12). 2022: Yuusha Yamemasu (1/12), Kaguya-sama S3, Mob Psycho 100 III (Oct06), Bleach: 1000 Year Blood War (2/13) and Chainsaw Man (6/12). Spring 2023: Yamada-kun to Lv999 no Koi wo Suru, Kuma Kuma Kuma Bear Punch! (4/12), Skip to Loafer, Tonikaku Kawaii S2 (1/12), Otonari ni Ginga (5/12) and Kimi wa Houkago Insomnia (3/13). Contact me on Wikia and MyAnimeList. Anime List Status ~ Watching: 33. Completed: 468. Plan to watch: 39.

2016-01-14, 15:14	Link #3216
DeliriousEagle Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: The forest or any tree really	Seems like the ride is still not over.

2016-01-14, 19:23	Link #3217
moodie Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2015	Wazamonogatari released today, announces upcoming books with Nademonogatari and Musubimonogatari. damn shaft will always have new material lol

2016-01-15, 02:47	Link #3218
DeliriousEagle Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: The forest or any tree really	Bet that one of the release dates will be around when part 2 of Kizu comes out.