Brexit Vote

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

I have no hope for a deal. All I want is for us to be done.

The only way for it to be done is Remain. Anything else, absolutely anything else, means years and years of further political turmoil.

[OH&S]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

The only way for it to be done is Remain. Anything else, absolutely anything else, means years and years of further political turmoil.

Is it even realistic for Remain to be an option at this point without a 2nd referendum?

And would a referendum even solve the deadlock?

In my mind, the only way it could was if there were three options to choose from:

1. Remain in the EU (and cancel Brexit process)
2. Leave the EU with a Deal (as negotiated by Theresa May's party)
3. Leave the EU with No Deal

And, that the vote would be an alternative vote where you choose your best and second best option.

The reality is that this will never happen unless the EU make it one of the conditions of another Brexit deadline extension AND parliament passes the bill (preferably before another election).

And while the final season of Brexit has been unpredictable so far, it would take a shear miracle for the stars to align and allow this to happen. If this dream scenario ever occurs, I might as well start buying lottery tickets from then on.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

The only way for it to be done is Remain. Anything else, absolutely anything else, means years and years of further political turmoil.

It's the "will they or won't they" that annoys me. If they jump that damn cliff, at least we'll be done with that.

[Guardian Enzo]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

It's the "will they or won't they" that annoys me. If they jump that damn cliff, at least we'll be done with that.

Well, thank David Cameron for that. This was all his brilliant idea to try and stave off an inevitable schism in the Tories.

Right now, there is no deal. A second referendum would have to be "No Deal" or "Revoke Article 50". Even if "Revoke and Remain" won, of course, that wouldn't satisfy the half of the country that voted for Brexit. There's no real way out here - Brexit and the country is fucked, no Brexit and half the country is in open revolt.

On top of that, this referendum will never happen because as long as Corbyn is head of the Labour Party he'll never allow it. He's a committed lifelong Brexiteer (which Cameron and May - and even BoJo - are not) and revoke and remain is his worst-case scenario. He'll continue to triangulate and try to get his Brexit while blaming the Tories for screwing it up, and it's really just a race to see which of the two main parties destroys itself first.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

no Brexit and half the country is in open revolt.

Then let them revolt. At some point you had to clear out the malcontents, best that they show themselves in jackboots so we know who is the enemy.

I am reminded of a post in this forum, several years ago. That person was terrified of finding out all the actual fascists living in his American neighbourhood. He doesn't want to know who they are, he rather that they hid themselves so he would never had to fact the reality that he is living with traitors.

He was terrified that if Trump lost the election, the fascists would get desperate and actually start to kill people. Well, he got his wish, the fascists won.

If people are willing to go into open revolt, then it is their right to. Let them exercise their right to revolt. And there are consequences to revolting. Better to air the laundry out in the sun and see who is outnumbered.

[DracoS]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

The only way for it to be done is Remain. Anything else, absolutely anything else, means years and years of further political turmoil.

You think staying in the EU after having vote were we voted to leave will be political tranquillity? Pre Brexit vote the Eurosceptic movement was happily growing. If Hard Remain stops Brexit going ahead, it will just make help entrench attitudes that the Europhile's are anti-democratic.

[Guardian Enzo]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Then let them revolt. At some point you had to clear out the malcontents, best that they show themselves in jackboots so we know who is the enemy.

I am reminded of a post in this forum, several years ago. That person was terrified of finding out all the actual fascists living in his American neighbourhood. He doesn't want to know who they are, he rather that they hid themselves so he would never had to fact the reality that he is living with traitors.

He was terrified that if Trump lost the election, the fascists would get desperate and actually start to kill people. Well, he got his wish, the fascists won.

If people are willing to go into open revolt, then it is their right to. Let them exercise their right to revolt. And there are consequences to revolting. Better to air the laundry out in the sun and see who is outnumbered.

I think that's a naive way to look at things, and I don't think a country can function as a democracy that way. But be that as it may it's moot IMO, because there will be no second referendum. Most of the Tory rebels wouldn't go that far, for starters.

That's what's missing in all this for me - an endgame for the rebel alliance. We know what BoJo wants - out-Brexit Farage and get out of the EU at any costs so he can take the credit. But what does the rebellion want? Some want a second referendum, some don't. Some want to remain, some want to get out with a deal. There's certainly no majority for anything except avoiding a no-deal. But sooner or later even if you extend Article 50 you still need an actual resolution, and I don't see what that is. If an outright remain majority could win a November election that would be one thing, but that's certainly not going to happen.

[SeijiSensei]

Leavers' claims that "a majority" of the country voted for Brexit are simply false. Thirteen million people did not vote in the 2016 referendum. That's nearly as many as voted for Remain or Leave.

I don't see how a second referendum would be worded. Leave and Remain are reasonably absolute, but "leave but with a deal" is totally ambiguous. What kind of deal? Would it require the backstop? Would it continue free movement? Most voters likely have no idea what was contained in the deal May negotiated with the EU.

That's why Cameron's initial decision to bring forward a referendum was so stupid in the first place. You cannot reduce these kinds of complex issues to simple items on a ballot paper. I suppose voting for Leave included the implicit consequence that Parliament would work out what a Leave vote means. We now know that hope was in vain.

[DracoS]

A none voter a none voter through. The referendum had a much better turnout than any election for decades, yet I don't see anyone saying all our Prime Minsters were not legit. The other issues is how how you resolve EU membership without a referendum on the subject.

[Toukairin]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

I think that's a naive way to look at things, and I don't think a country can function as a democracy that way.

The problem here is not that their opinions differ from other people's. What VCV refers to is the bunch of people out there whose beliefs and actions are just plain toxic for a country's future. You could say that they are a minority, but they are a minority of nutjobs who hold a very poisonous rhetoric, who often show a specific profile (xenophobes stuck in some ideal of some outdated past), who are willingly displaying utter ignorance, and who can't even hold their ground with supporting arguments for 2 minutes.

To use a term coined back in 2016, those people are true deplorables. At one point, they have to be confronted out in the open and then be forced to face of consequences for fucking up the country. To think that we shouldn't take those fringes head on so they get shown their own expiry date... do me a favour!

[James Rye]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

Well, thank David Cameron for that. This was all his brilliant idea to try and stave off an inevitable schism in the Tories.

Brilliant plan! Looks what happened, the Tories are breaking apart BECAUSE of it! XD

[Guardian Enzo]

Wow, Amber Rudd quit the government - and the party. That's major, and not John either.

[Guardian Enzo]

Meanwhile:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...isemitism-tsar

and: https://www.theguardian.com/politics...e-chaotic-week

Johnson’s personal ratings have been dented after his bruising week in the Commons. Now only just over a third (36%) think he would be the best prime minister, down from 41% last month. However, Jeremy Corbyn is not benefiting from Johnson’s troubles. Only 16% say he would be the best prime minister.

Only 37% approve of the way that Johnson is handling the Brexit process, while 43% disapprove. However, that is better than than the ratings for Corbyn. Just 17% approve of the Labour leader’s response.

[James Rye]

^Seriously? Even now Corbyn can't win against the Tory leader? I was already surprised that he failed against Robolady May but Clown Bojo?! What do the Tories need to put up as frontman for Corbyn to have a winning chance? A gay Pony Unicorn?

[Guardian Enzo]

Originally Posted by James Rye

^Seriously? Even now Corbyn can't win against the Tory leader? I was already surprised that he failed against Robolady May but Clown Bojo?! What do the Tories need to put up as frontman for Corbyn to have a winning chance? A gay Pony Unicorn?

Corbyn is literally the most unpopular major party leader in the history of British polling, and it's not close. He was already toxic to the general electorate, but the anti-Semitism crisis and his shameless prevarication on Brexit have made him even more so. There are probably no circumstances - literally - where Labour could win a general election with Corbyn as their leader.

At the moment the rebel alliance seems to be putting their hopes in a massive strategic voting campaign to get people to vote for the most realistic remain candidate in their constituency, be they LibDem, Labour, Green, SNP or Plaid Cymru. Even Tory in some cases. The idea is a hung parliament where remainers could form a coalition, but I'm highly skeptical this can work. It's asking a lot of voters in the first place, and in the second under such a scenario it's likely Labour would have the most seats among the parties involved - and you're going to ask Jeremy Corbyn, a devout Brexiteer, to head a government made possible expressly by strategic remain voting?

[Ithekro]

All for Lord Buckethead for PM say "aye".

[Guardian Enzo]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

All for Lord Buckethead for PM say "aye".

My choice would be Keir Starmer, but given how stupid and self-destructive Labour is right now that’s about as likely.

[James Rye]

Nah, BoJo gonna win. But Brexit Party will take Seats as well so he gonna need to work with them. If the Brexit gets delayed again and the election is hold after the delay then the Leaver Base will be huge and active. So even considering the Remainer Base being bigger and more active they will not win due their many parties dividing the votes between them. So far Cummings plan to make the Conservatives the Brexit Party works, sure it hurts them losing some moderates but if you ask a moderate Tory voter between chosing either BoJo or Corbyn he gonna do a long hiss and then vote Bojo for sure or at least most of them will, enough for BoJo to take first place, especially since Labour will lose more voters to Brexit Party and LimDems than they can gain from the Tories.

[Toukairin]

Until when will the Labour Party wake up and give Corbyn the boot? It shouldn't be difficult for a losing leader in a parliamentary system to be replaced, especially when that leader couldn't even win against Theresa "Robolady" May.

[Guardian Enzo]

Originally Posted by Toukairin

Until when will the Labour Party wake up and give Corbyn the boot? It shouldn't be difficult for a losing leader in a parliamentary system to be replaced, especially when that leader couldn't even win against Theresa "Robolady" May.

Except that Labour MPs have basically no say in who the leader is. Corbyn and McCluskey have rigged the system so it’s basically impossible to remove Corbyn against his will.