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View Poll Results: Claymore - Chapter 107 rating
Perfect 10 21 14.89%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 14 9.93%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 16 11.35%
7 out of 10 : Good 20 14.18%
6 out of 10 : Average 8 5.67%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 3 2.13%
4 out of 10 : Poor 3 2.13%
3 out of 10 : Bad 2 1.42%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 1 0.71%
1 out of 10 : Painful 53 37.59%
Voters: 141. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2010-09-04, 14:18   Link #941
Dj0rel
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Originally Posted by Ryus View Post
Of course Galatea wouldn't fall for this. She has no back story!

Hence part of the reason why I felt this ability was aimed solely at killing Miria. Lets face it only Clare, Raki, & Priscilla could really fall for this. Maybe Deneve, Cynthia, and now Tabitha could fall for this to a lesser degree too. That is without more back history being done for Galatea, Dietrich, Miata, Clarice, and Yuma first. This power was a counter and not really a trump card.
Err... Nope. Even if Galatea didn't reveal her past you can bet Raftela would make her see her parents who were eaten by yoma as we all know it happened. And if that is a bit too standard for you, her hallucination could have something to do with those orphan children she took care of in Rabona.

Pick a half-yoma warrior, any half-yoma warrior, and it's pretty much guarantied they will have some sort of memory that would be vulnerable to the effects of Raftela's ability. Rubel said it very clearly. Raftela's ability works by messing with victim's head. She probably didn't even know what was Miria hallucinating. As far I understood the effects of this ability is kinda like if you gave a normal person hallucination inducing drug. No matter who the person is, he/she will be affected.
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Old 2010-09-04, 14:19   Link #942
Ryus
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Originally Posted by MalakTawus View Post
Ryus,i have read your post,and there are a lot of things that i agree,but others are plain stupid imo.
For example

Come on!Like this is the only technique that only one warrior is able to use!
The prediction ability is Teresa only (Claire eredited),the QS is Irene only and if she didn't teach Claire she would have NEVER learned it,manipulation is Gala only (well,there was even an other AB,but who knows how many generations are passed before someone else was able to use the tech),semi awakening is Claire only (well,maybe in this case she is the only one to be able to do it),that "fusion" technique is Raph only.......
maybe I wasn't clear enough...

I didn't imply at all that this was her one and only power... I asked why others who could yoki sync not discover this power on there own. I don't know where you got that from. Flora developed the windcutter and Irene developed the quicksword... they weren't natural abilities both show that warriors experiment with the powers naturally one of these yoki sensing types should have discovered this ability and not been a #10. I'm not even saying in Clare's generation but Rubel stated only the #10s know of this power... so I ask how did they learn about it... That's all.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MalakTawus View Post
I see a perfect logic here,i mean it makes sense that to "connect" Rafty has to feel the yoki at least a little.

That in itself is my issue. We had no knowledge of her attempt to do this to Miria prior... only that she had now succeed. I see that a poor writing... more specifically it was either rushed for space purposes or Yagi was aiming for shock factor and not actually taking the reader through the natural sequence of events. Both are considered poor writing when introducing new plot elements. The best writings engage the reader which Yagi has done time and again and don't treat it like a soap only aiming at the shock factor. I felt like Yagi pulled a fast one on me.


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Originally Posted by MalakTawus View Post
Lol,considering what she was doing have you thought that MAYBE she didn't say anything 'cause she was concentrating A LOT?
Uh yeah... but my point was it was her introduction to the plot and all she did was stand there getting ugly while making Miria look like a crazy lady. It's a poor character introduction. As I mentioned earlier if Yagi had actually taken the time to show her attempting to find Mirias yoki she could have been more than a static character. All he needed to do was have her act like a loyal puppet to one of the MiB for a line or two saying she needed the shrimp twins to pressure Miria more for her to sense something... since she wasn't made to attack warriors with masked yokis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MalakTawus View Post
Anyway that was a really good post (even Rennir post was really interesting),and i agree with a lot of things,it's just that on this chapter have been said a lot of things that makes no sense,and when i was talking about "forced meaningful deaths" i wasn't referring to anything you said,but trust me,for some people it's like an absolute rule.......
Oh I understand.. sorry if it seemed other wise and thanks for saying that.
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Old 2010-09-04, 14:25   Link #943
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Originally Posted by yononaka View Post
I'm not sure what you mean by your "the math should be"? I was simply pointing out the dichotomy, not misrepresenting the numbers in any way... it's not like people can't take their own look at the rest of what's there if they want. I wasn't saying people think it's great, just that it's nowhere near being super bad by consensus.

I'll venture a wild guess that a good number of "painfuls" are making-a-point votes and not even trying to be fair. (Nothing personal to anyone, I can relate to that -- albeit not in this case.)

Now, assuming what you suggest about the even lower average score is true, that would mean that the average vote on Claymore has been <5 for a while (it's ~5 on this one), which would kind of mean that the people who read it think it sucks (or that there is a large pool of those who hate it but can't let go, enough to skew the average). I know that's just a hypothetical, but it'd be a pretty strange situation.
My point was you didn't list anyone who voted for 2-5 They voted too

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Originally Posted by Dj0rel View Post
Err... Nope. Even if Galatea didn't reveal her past you can bet Raftela would make her see her parents who were eaten by yoma as we all know it happened. And if that is a bit too standard for you, her hallucination could have something to do with those orphan children she took care of in Rabona.

Pick a half-yoma warrior, any half-yoma warrior, and it's pretty much guarantied they will have some sort of memory that would be vulnerable to the effects of Raftela's ability. Rubel said it very clearly. Raftela's ability works by messing with victim's head. She probably didn't even know what was Miria hallucinating. As far I understood the effects of this ability is kinda like if you gave a normal person hallucination inducing drug. No matter who the person is, he/she will be affected.
Oh god... that would likely be even poor writing... Since doing it to a character without a known past means he could do anything he wants and claimed it fit. Thats far from having a character develop naturally and attacking a known kink in there past. Most likely he'd introduce a past then attack it and that once again would be writing to effect a character in a certain way rather than letting them naturally develop and exploiting there character.

Next off I was being facetious... Clearly he could... question is should he?
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Old 2010-09-04, 14:30   Link #944
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A strong emotional side =/= charging into battle trying to overpower everyone.

Seems you got that wrong.

And it´s funny how people make fun of people who care about something they are interested in.

You said it yourself. Aftermath. After losing a lot of comrades. And blaming herself. Yes.

I´m not talking about that, dear Sir or Madam, I was talking about the fact that she just walks "in" there, thinking she´s ready to take them on alone. Seriously?
Without a backup plan? With all that experience she has and the things she learned about them?

Miria is a deep character and yes, she has a an emotional side, but this has nothing to do with a calm pre-battle plan. She allways had one. She even came up with one in the most desperate situation.

And that´s her plan this time? Say Hi and then slay everyone?

Next, what was that about not killing other Claymores? She´s up against the Org. What did she think she´d be fighting against? Stormtroopers? Hollows? Carebears?

Of course she´d have to face other Claymores, she had to face some before allready. And now, during the most dire situation, she suddenly thinks what to do with them? Really?

Maybe everyone is right, it´s good she died, don´t want to know what she might´ve turned into if this went on.

From strong confident experienced intelligent but still caring and emotional Phantom Miria, to overconfident naive dumb oversentimental wreck? Great development and plot twist.
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Old 2010-09-04, 14:34   Link #945
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i'd lose respect for him if he decides to bring miria back just cuz the fans are bitching about a claymore character's death. u.u it's been already done and let's move on.
Wow Clarakiss, I've never seen you post like this before , especially with the language :O
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Old 2010-09-04, 14:36   Link #946
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i was just as sad to see miria go. but she sorta overshadowed everyone in the group, except for clare. perhaps yagi-sensei is thinking of giving others the chance to shine like tabby, yuma and cynthia?
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Old 2010-09-04, 14:42   Link #947
irvinethearcher
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Originally Posted by Ryus
I asked why others who could yoki sync not discover this power on there own. I don't know where you got that from. Flora developed the windcutter and Irene developed the quicksword... they weren't natural abilities both show that warriors experiment with the powers naturally one of these yoki sensing types should have discovered this ability and not been a #10. I'm not even saying in Clare's generation but Rubel stated only the #10s know of this power... so I ask how did they learn about it... That's all.
I think the answer is quite simple if you look at it from a different angle...
Galatea or Theresa are probably able to even surpass #10 with proper training in that technique. The problem is that galatea and theresa are characters who respect and honour their comrades and never would have used their powers to mentally manipulate, rape or mindfuck them. With number 10 it is otherwise. She was trained from the beginning by the org and encouraged by them to use her yoki manipulation and synchronisation powers against their comrades as a weapon.
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Old 2010-09-04, 14:49   Link #948
yononaka
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Originally Posted by Ryus View Post
My point was you didn't list anyone who voted for 2-5 They voted too
Oh come on, that small fraction wasn't at all difficult to figure out by subtracting two numbers from the total...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryus View Post
I didn't imply at all that this was her one and only power... I asked why others who could yoki sync not discover this power on there own. I don't know where you got that from. Flora developed the windcutter and Irene developed the quicksword... they weren't natural abilities both show that warriors experiment with the powers naturally one of these yoki sensing types should have discovered this ability and not been a #10. I'm not even saying in Clare's generation but Rubel stated only the #10s know of this power... so I ask how did they learn about it... That's all.
Why would they experiment with getting into another warrior's head when their job is to kill youma? The kind of personalities most of these girls have, trying this on your own would be like asking to get your ass kicked. Nor would you want to stand around concentrating to try this on a youma or an AB. I see no particular reason why they "should" have discovered this ability. (But, nowhere has it been stated that no one has ever discovered this ability on their own.)

Rubel said #10 is "selected", so clearly there are some sort of tests run on the candidates, probably at an early enough age where those who don't have the aptitude forget all about it later, while #10 keeps working on it.

(Posted before seeing irvinethearcher's post, who also makes good points.)
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Old 2010-09-04, 14:55   Link #949
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Originally Posted by Shiek927 View Post
Wow Clarakiss, I've never seen you post like this before , especially with the language :O
you have no idea shieky.. i could make an awakened prissy like a lil kitten.
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Old 2010-09-04, 14:55   Link #950
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Originally Posted by Ryus View Post
I didn't imply at all that this was her one and only power... I asked why others who could yoki sync not discover this power on there own. I don't know where you got that from. Flora developed the windcutter and Irene developed the quicksword... they weren't natural abilities both show that warriors experiment with the powers naturally one of these yoki sensing types should have discovered this ability and not been a #10. I'm not even saying in Clare's generation but Rubel stated only the #10s know of this power... so I ask how did they learn about it... That's all.
Yoki sensing/manipulating/synchronizing is probably hardest to learn skill for warriors. And all warriors with such ability are carefully trained by Organization handlers. . It wasn't Galatea who taught Renee how to sense yoki - it was Organization members. It wasn't Galatea who taught Alice and Beth to synchronize, and most probably it wasn't Raphaela either (she refused to use yoki). In other words Organization have an ability to teach yoki sensors without help of warriors with similar skill.
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Old 2010-09-04, 15:12   Link #951
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Originally Posted by Ryus View Post
maybe I wasn't clear enough...

I didn't imply at all that this was her one and only power... I asked why others who could yoki sync not discover this power on there own. I don't know where you got that from. Flora developed the windcutter and Irene developed the quicksword... they weren't natural abilities both show that warriors experiment with the powers naturally one of these yoki sensing types should have discovered this ability and not been a #10. I'm not even saying in Clare's generation but Rubel stated only the #10s know of this power... so I ask how did they learn about it... That's all.
Maybe because: 1 - others who could yoki sync were usually fighting yoma and AB's and not their fellow claymores, 2 - they weren't allowed (by the org) to live long enough to develop it, 3 - they didn't get the special training required for it, 4 - those can yoki sync are very few 5 - no other claymore accidentally discovered soul link either.

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Originally Posted by Ryus View Post
That in itself is my issue. We had no knowledge of her attempt to do this to Miria prior... only that she had now succeed.
I'm not sure what do you see as the moment Miria first got under Raftela's ability. The way I saw it, the moment she accidentally cut of an arm of one of those twins was the point were Miria got under the influence of Raftela is . And than she stared missing shots. So we do have a knowledge of her attempt to do this to Miria prior. Only it seems

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Originally Posted by Ryus View Post
Oh god... that would likely be even poor writing... Since doing it to a character without a known past means he could do anything he wants and claimed it fit. Thats far from having a character develop naturally and attacking a known kink in there past. Most likely he'd introduce a past then attack it and that once again would be writing to effect a character in a certain way rather than letting them naturally develop and exploiting there character.
Perhaps that is why he didn't do it.
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Old 2010-09-04, 16:14   Link #952
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Originally Posted by matsunaga_hisahide View Post
A strong emotional side =/= charging into battle trying to overpower everyone.

Seems you got that wrong.

And it´s funny how people make fun of people who care about something they are interested in.

You said it yourself. Aftermath. After losing a lot of comrades. And blaming herself. Yes.

I´m not talking about that, dear Sir or Madam, I was talking about the fact that she just walks "in" there, thinking she´s ready to take them on alone. Seriously?
Without a backup plan? With all that experience she has and the things she learned about them?

Miria is a deep character and yes, she has a an emotional side, but this has nothing to do with a calm pre-battle plan. She allways had one. She even came up with one in the most desperate situation.

And that´s her plan this time? Say Hi and then slay everyone?

Next, what was that about not killing other Claymores? She´s up against the Org. What did she think she´d be fighting against? Stormtroopers? Hollows? Carebears?

Of course she´d have to face other Claymores, she had to face some before allready. And now, during the most dire situation, she suddenly thinks what to do with them? Really?

Maybe everyone is right, it´s good she died, don´t want to know what she might´ve turned into if this went on.

From strong confident experienced intelligent but still caring and emotional Phantom Miria, to overconfident naive dumb oversentimental wreck? Great development and plot twist.
Miria plan was to kill them all, but when the time came she could not do it. Chp 106
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Old 2010-09-04, 16:23   Link #953
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Originally Posted by Dj0rel View Post
Maybe because: 1 - others who could yoki sync were usually fighting yoma and AB's and not their fellow claymores, 2 - they weren't allowed (by the org) to live long enough to develop it, 3 - they didn't get the special training required for it, 4 - those can yoki sync are very few 5 - no other claymore accidentally discovered soul link either.



I'm not sure what do you see as the moment Miria first got under Raftela's ability. The way I saw it, the moment she accidentally cut of an arm of one of those twins was the point were Miria got under the influence of Raftela is . And than she stared missing shots. So we do have a knowledge of her attempt to do this to Miria prior. Only it seems



Perhaps that is why he didn't do it.
Miria used a small amount of yoki because the twins were to strong. Raftela waited until Miria used yoki to manipulate her.
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Old 2010-09-04, 16:26   Link #954
MalakTawus
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maybe I wasn't clear enough...

I didn't imply at all that this was her one and only power... I asked why others who could yoki sync not discover this power on there own. I don't know where you got that from. Flora developed the windcutter and Irene developed the quicksword... they weren't natural abilities both show that warriors experiment with the powers naturally one of these yoki sensing types should have discovered this ability and not been a #10. I'm not even saying in Clare's generation but Rubel stated only the #10s know of this power... so I ask how did they learn about it... That's all.
No,maybe I wasn't clear here.Those where simply examples that showed that it's quite normal that there are techniques that are developed only by one or very few warriors even if a lot more could do it.Take Gala yoki's manipulation,theoretically there could be even other warriors that could find out how to use this power,but since it's probably quite difficult it doesn't happen or happens only sometimes in different generations.The same could be said even for other techniques:we could wonder why everyone don't learn a useful technique like the windcutter,and even the QS could be potentially used by other warriors.

The answer to why this doesn't happen is simple:learning by yourself those techniques is VERY difficult if you don't have someone that shows you the correct way.
The same goes for the mental-linking technique.Something like that is almost impossible to learn if someone don't show you the way,and probably even if someone happens to show that kind of potential,the org immidiately gives her the n.10 position.

@matsunaga_hisahide: (WHY I THINK THAT MIRIA WASN'T OUT OF CHARACTER)
It seems that you didn't read my post since i explained a bit why imo Miria doesn't act out of character.
But first i'd make a little precisation to what you say:it's NOT TRUE that Miria was ALWAYS able to make a plan even in desperate situations,infact the only two times that the situation was REALLY desperate she was saved by Claire and not by her amazing plan.
Said that iom the people like you that think that it doesn't make sense the way Miria acted are committing a little but very important mistake:
Miria was able to fool the org (well,not so much since they sent her to Pieta....),stay calm and study the situation for a long time,but at that time she was still acting mainly by yourself and for herself,so she was able to control her emotional side.
Now (after Pieta) the situation is COMPLETELY different,she cares a lot for her friend (specially Claire,Helen and Deneve) and her emotional side lead her to act with her heart instead of remaining calm and collected.
Important to notice that the emotional side was always there,it's just that before it was under control 'cause she was alone,while now the love for her friend is her greatest weakness.
Her friends are too important for her and even if she knew perfectly well that attacking the org was not a good idea (someone smart as her has to know something like that),that also was her only hope to end everything by herself without putting her friends in danger.
So basically what i'm saying is that in those years the love for her friends became so important to convince her to try a desperate attack by herself.
Thinking now,maybe she was already considering something like this from the moment the ghost splitted,and when she saw that A&B where busy with Riful she must have thought something like "now or never" (especially 'cause if she had waited Claire's return it would be impossible to "escape" from the other ghosts).

Quote:
That in itself is my issue. We had no knowledge of her attempt to do this to Miria prior... only that she had now succeed. I see that a poor writing... more specifically it was either rushed for space purposes or Yagi was aiming for shock factor and not actually taking the reader through the natural sequence of events. Both are considered poor writing when introducing new plot elements. The best writings engage the reader which Yagi has done time and again and don't treat it like a soap only aiming at the shock factor. I felt like Yagi pulled a fast one on me.
Ok,i think to understand what you mean,but to be honest i don't think it's a big problem,especially if you consider that we get ONE chap per month,i mean,i think we can forgive something like this imo considering the space that he has......

Last edited by MalakTawus; 2010-09-04 at 17:01.
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Old 2010-09-04, 16:31   Link #955
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I don't think Miria is dead but if she is, this only means the Ghost are going to get an upgrade. Clare has gotten lots of power-ups, but the rest of the Ghost are still weak. Dead or not, Miria going missing will force them to take drastic measures.

Yagi would never kill off a main character just for shock effect. He is way too good for that. Look how long it took for Irene to show up after we all thought she was dead.
When she did, Clare got a major power up. He planed it way in advance. I still have confidence in him.
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Last edited by Awakened; 2010-09-04 at 16:48.
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Old 2010-09-04, 16:33   Link #956
matsunaga_hisahide
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I knew about that plan, but still thanks for remembering me...seeing as there are one months breaks between each chapter, I nearly forgot it was only one chapter before this maniac-chapter that Miria went down the hill.
Once month is simply too long...

But this aside, that´s one thought out plan, right?
Sounds like a plan Miria would or by that any sane person would go for.

Though it seems like the Miria-bereaved and those who simply don´t care, fans of still living characters or allready dead characters, etc. will never find a way to agree on this matter.

I, for one, will drop it now and as some senior member said, ask myself what will happen next.

Seeing as Miria is most likely dead and Claire is still "dead"...wonder what viewpoint we´ll have next?

Or better said, which person will be killed off next? Hopefully one of the men in black, this time.
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Old 2010-09-04, 16:53   Link #957
Shiek927
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Once month is simply too long...
Not at all

A month usually gives us all the time we need to analyze, debate, predict and enjoy ourselves before the next chapter comes out, as well as gives Yagi the time to perfectly decide what it is he wants to do, as well as refine his artwork.

I just don't get people who complain about the time-span and prefer weekly-chapters, when all that does is cut down on everything; if you get bored easily, just focus on something else in the meantime .
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Old 2010-09-04, 17:10   Link #958
MalakTawus
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Anyway imo Miria's biggest mistake in her decision to attack the org wasn't going alone (of course this too was VERY BIG) imo,but it was the fact that she wasn't sure if she was ready to kill.
If she was really ready to kill she could have killed the twins easily cutting their heads and maybe without using yoki she would have won,but attacking the org alone AND without being ready to kill.......that was asking really too much even for her ability.


Anyway i edited my previos post.
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Old 2010-09-04, 17:25   Link #959
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Wouldn't it have been possible for Miria to sneak into the Org and kill the MIB stealthily? She was still under the yoki radar. Seems rather dumb to show up at the front door and go hai guys, what's going on in here nao? Oh btw, I'm here to kill you.

Stealth was the only thing she had going and she didn't even make use of it. And if she was found out, why couldn't she just run away and circle back later? She did outrun an AO after all. It just doesn't compute.
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Old 2010-09-04, 17:28   Link #960
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At any rate, it's been awhile, so I'll add my take and repost this post of mine:

http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...&postcount=451

The reason being because, again, I don't think people are taking all this in the right direction; everyone's listing various reasons how and why Miria made mistakes, but we have to remember Miria's intellect (which no doubt already took many of what we are saying probably into consideration), but more importantly, the fact that what she was doing wasn't motivated by strategy or logic, but by sheer force of will.

Miria did what she did because she wanted too, plain and simple, and we need to think about that; Galatea already implied that Miria herself was aware that what she was doing was probably suicidal, but she wanted to go anyway because she was so strong for what she believed. In these past two chapters, we examined how, logically, their is a mountain of reasons why this whole situation was stupid and not worth it....but again, what are the odds that Miria herself was aware of all this and decided to try it anyway?

Miria is not stupid; regardless of what happened in these past two chapters, we can't assume she suddenly lost her marbles or whatever; it's just that, what she did, was motivated by logic or strategy; on the surface, perhaps it is(Alicia and Beth being away for example), but their isn't much, and that makes sense: because she didn't go to Staff for those kinds of reasons. She went, purely on emotional reasons, because she felt so strongly that what she was doing was the right decision for the sake of her team.

She's like Claire and Deneve in these regards; acting out almost purely out of instinct and emotion, and, despite having a frosty exterior(and my own admittingly disliking opinions about her, because I wished she would have opened up more), she does have a heart and she does care for her team; she, obviously, wouldn't have sliced up her most loyal follower if she didn't have a good reason, and while we can argue about said-reason and say it doesn't make sense, it's stupid yadda yadda yadda....we have to remember that, said actions, and everything she did and done, was not motivated by logic and reasoning, it was done purely by emotion, force of will, and the belief that she was doing the best and right thing for the Ghosts.

In that regard....Miria's death, is actually kind of beautiful; the way to Staff from Rabona is a looong distance, and along the way, Miria was probably mentally preparing herself for her likely death; she didn't want to die, obviously and no doubt, but the probability was very high and it's not like she knew everything that was waiting for her (and neither did we), but getting back to the point, as tragic as her death was....it was almost like a sacrifice she made for her teammates. We can argue that it was a needless and pointless sacrifice, but as I say, this whole scenario wasn't one motivated by logic and/or reasoning and shouldn't therefore be judged that way....she died, but she died, probably feeling the happiest she ever felt in her entire life; she sure smiled that way .

At the very least, her sacrifice, will push the remaining Ghosts to fight even harder against the Organization; no doubt, without holding anything back.
__________________
"You know, their are as many ways to live as their are people in this world...and each one deserves a closer look."

Last edited by Shiek927; 2010-09-04 at 17:55.
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