2009-08-30, 20:00 | Link #5301 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
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2009-08-30, 20:01 | Link #5302 | |
Um-Shmum
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 39
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this is a contrediction in itself if people decided on this peace on their own free will, because thats what people would always strive for - then lelouch's Z-R achieved nothing and he killed people for nothing if lelouch was resposible for people deciding to make peace which they would not create on their own - then its not really free will, but rather manipulation and either option is immoral
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2009-08-30, 20:04 | Link #5303 | |
Shameless Fangirl
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Germany
Age: 34
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Also, there is no ultimate moral theory, and some moral theories are perfectly all right with deception.
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2009-08-30, 20:09 | Link #5304 |
Um-Shmum
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 39
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the question is simple then
what would the reaction of the people of the world be if they learned about Z-R being planned are they more likely to say "yeah, lelouch tricked us into peace, we should accept that all the people he murdered we're just broken eggs, and call him and suzaku heroes for deceiving us" or are they more likely to hang suzaku off the highest building they can find any plan that depends on the public remaining in the dark about it, is immoral because no one would accept it if they knew about it dont think about this idealisticlly think about it like normal people would how would the american people respond to learning that the US goverment is behind 9/11 becuase it allowed them to bring freedom to the people of iraq
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2009-08-30, 20:21 | Link #5305 | ||||
Shameless Fangirl
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Germany
Age: 34
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If everyone was killing each other and innocent people suffering, and you could deceive them into stopping, they'd hate you for it even if you didn't have anyone to kill anyone. It would be ultimate freedom > happiness. Utilitarianism would laugh in your face. Quote:
I'm by no means an idealist. Quote:
See ultimate moral theory.
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2009-08-30, 20:30 | Link #5306 |
Um-Shmum
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 39
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there may not be an ultimate moral theory
but there is a very basic level of it if you have to keep people in the dark about your plan, because they would lash out violently against them if they knew about them then what ever results you achieved by your plan is immoral regardless of whether or not they are "good"
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2009-08-30, 20:33 | Link #5307 |
I change anime endings.
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Looking the storyboard Lelouch could to use more different ways to broke hate chain and build peace, he just used the more spectacular and destructive way, like the unstable man he was, suzaku lost his equilibrium after the fleija disaster, then he was ready for make everything.
Example, before to use the geass for to become king, he could to show to the world what Charles and V.V done and use them to justify euphemia's madness, the result was britannia destruction in every case and world people use their hate to the royal family and not euphemia, after maybe he was a target too, but to die was his goal, then.... |
2009-08-30, 20:35 | Link #5308 | |
Um-Shmum
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 39
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he chose the most spectacular path, rather then the best one
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2009-08-30, 20:36 | Link #5309 | ||
Shameless Fangirl
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Germany
Age: 34
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Because there is no such thing as an ultimate moral theory, except maybe if you believe in God. Quote:
Kant more or less says the ends never justify the means. You say ultimate freedom of choice is most important. That could be difficult in a society where 95% of the population thinks slavery is awesome and refuse to see things any other way. I mean, what do you do if you can't convince them, and had the chance to just trick them? Would you let them continue to hurt others for their personal gain, since they chose to do so?
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2009-08-30, 20:41 | Link #5310 | |
Um-Shmum
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Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
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B)if you say that 95% of people believe slavery is awesome and you force them to change their world views using manipulation of hate and mass murder, then the argument of "everyone agrees suddenly that slavery is wrong on their own free will" is bullshit lelouch DOES force his own world view on people, just as shnizel would have, only using tricker means if by contrast, people would normally agree that slavery is wrong on their own account and free will, then there is no reason to trick them into doing it
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2009-08-30, 22:07 | Link #5311 | |
Puppet Master
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Behind You
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Lelouch's sole reason for doing what he did was Nunnaly. He never really cared about all the other people who suffered because of the Britannian system. While Kallen and Suzaku were fighting for justice, and for the sake of other people Lelouch was fighting for Nunnaly, and to figure out the truth behind his mother's death. That's as selfish as you can really get. If the Marianne plot never took place and Lelouch never had the chance to meet and interact with commoners he most likely would've ended up in charge of an Area playing soutoku.
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2009-08-30, 22:14 | Link #5312 |
Puppet Master
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Behind You
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Well, Mt. Fuji was a contingency plan. Lelouch said it himself that he never expected the Black Knights to pose much of a threat. The battle was going bad for them so they HAD to use Mt. Fuji and sacrifice their ground forces, but that was a good trade off because it took out a good chunk of the Black Knights forces including their flag ship. As a soldier you accept that your life may be expendable and the leader is ultimately responsible for seeing the overall picture and making decisions that could cause you to lose your life.
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2009-08-31, 02:34 | Link #5313 | |||||||||
Shameless Fangirl
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Germany
Age: 34
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I just tried to show you it's not perdect. Again, moral theories have to be consistent. If you say manipulating people is evil because you are manipulating them, then Lelouch was no more wrong than you would be if you tried to keep people from getting hurt by tricking those responsible in any way. Quote:
If you kill my hamster, and that maks me think killing is wrong, then I have still arrived at that conclusion on my own free will. If you, on the other hand, take Damocles and point it at my hamster and threaten to blow it up should I kill anyone, I haven't decided that killing is wrong. I have decided I don't want you to kill my hamster. Quote:
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Again, morals have to come from somewhere. Quote:
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Are you telling me they might have had a concscience even without that? And here I thought everyone was like Lelouch, evil by birth and only becoming "moral" through his sister. Quote:
Lelouch isn't "just" in this respect, but he's "loyal". I don't see how one is considerably more selfish than the other. Oh, and Euphie basically came up with the SAZ for Lelouch and Suzaku in the beginning. Maybe she got what was coming to her, and she really never had morals? Wait... Quote:
If anything, their roles would have been reversed, as the staff had intended at one point - Lelouch would have been the idealist and Suzaku the one who thought the end justifies the means.
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2009-08-31, 02:58 | Link #5314 | |||
Um-Shmum
Join Date: Dec 2007
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lelouch's plan is said to put trust in humanity's ability to struggle for a better future, while shnizel's just imposes peace by force without considering people's will ok then lets explore that concept of free will vs manipulation then mao manipulates shierly to almost kill lelouch by using her guilt and pain shnizel manipulates nina to continue building him a nuke by using her feelings about euphie lelouch attempts to manipulate suzaku into joining him by using the guilt over his father diethard manipulates kallen into almost killing suzaku by using her loyalty for zero lelouch manipulates the japanese people into hate against britannia by blaming euphie for something that he's reponsible lelouch manipulates villeta into working for him by using info he knows about her lelouch manipulates gillford into fighting against britannia by making him think lelouch is someone else lelouch manipulates rolo into switching sides by falsely feeding his desire for a family all these are cases where someone is doing something under the effect of a manipulation of some sort all of them were done out of a supposed level of choice but its always something that they would not have done without being manipulated into it Z-R is a paradox in that regard if lelouch was right in trusting in humanity, and people would struggle to make the world a better place on their own free will - then there was no need to deceive them using Z-R, and the only thing that it REALLY achieved was feeding lelouch's ego, and killing people for no reason which makes lelouch's plan un-necessarily evil, and pointless if the only reason why peace exists is because lelouch TRICKED humanity into accepting peace, and people would not have chosen to make peace on their own - then its not really a peace derived out of free will, but rather lelouch manipulated mankind into it against their better judgement and free will which makes lelouch's plan no better then shnizel's and charles Quote:
what are they fighting FOR both suzaku and kallen were fighting for the sake of the Japanese people lelouch was not
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2009-08-31, 03:34 | Link #5315 | |
yare yare..
Join Date: Oct 2006
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A: I am fighting because <insert reason>.. Q: What are you fighting for? A: I am fighting for <insert reason>.. What's the difference? Btw, Lelouch was fighting for Nunnally.
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2009-08-31, 03:39 | Link #5316 |
Um-Shmum
Join Date: Dec 2007
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Age: 39
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the WHAT is the goal
the WHY is the reason for wanting to achieve that goal lelouch was fighting for two things nunnaly (his mortality pet) revenge both are completely self-centered there is a difference between this and fighting to free/improve the lives of an oppressed people
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2009-08-31, 04:50 | Link #5319 | |||
Shameless Fangirl
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Germany
Age: 34
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Schneizel wasn't nearly as bad as many people make him out to be, in my opinion, but what he was trying to do is still different from Zero Requiem - see my allegory with the pet hamster. Quote:
And that's where we disagree. Yes, Nunally was his main reason. But he still felt sympathy for those being oppressed by Britannia, and for the weak in general. Also, fighting for the ones you love isn't self-centered - not in my book. Lelouch was a seventeen year old boy with some serious issues; give the guy a break. Sometimes, I doubt he knew what he was fighting for himself. Still, he did a lot of things he didn't have to do - like when he made Clovis not only stop the massacre but also order to treat the Japanese no different from Britannians afterwards. It's mentioned nowhere that anyone remembered that or even made the connection and thought Zero was awesome because of it. They only cared that Clovis was dead. Also, Suzaku was so driven by his guilt that he didn't stop to think about whether what he was trying to do had any chance for success. Yes, he was fighting for the Japanese, but he chose to overlook the fact that he might be hurting them instead, or that the rest of the world would still be at Britannia's mercy. In my opinion, that's no better than Lelouch's fixation on Nunally.
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2009-08-31, 06:01 | Link #5320 |
yare yare..
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Earth (:
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Well.. not everyone has the same reason to fight for the same goal.
Some do it for freedom, some for money, some for their family etc Suzaku fought because of his past. Lelouch fought because of Nunnally, and like you said, because of revenge. So what they're fighting for and why they're fighting are pretty much the same. ..and actually, you didn't capitalize the wrong words to mean your original point. You just capitalized the wrong words to explain what the "what" and "who" meant.
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