US Elections 2012 Part I: The Primaries/Caucus

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by synaesthetic

These days no news source is truly "reliable." You basically have to look at everything--and yes that does include the totally batshit ones like Fox News--and find the common threads that weave through everything, then fact-check them.

I find that mixing Fox News with Russian Today makes an explosive and often hilarious view of human society. At the very least, I know the two batshit insane organisations have competing interests, and as such if they both agreed on something, it is probably true.

[Sugetsu]

For those who got no time to watch the segments i just posted; the conservative voter's mentality has been molded by Freudian analysis to Emulate the behaviour of customers. The father of this idea was Edward Bernays, who based on his brother's idea of human nature, believed that human beings are irrational emotional machines and the only way to control them is by fullfiling their selfish desires through the free market.

This agenda was in the works since the great depression but was only possible to implement when Reagan took office. Before the 80s American voters were programmed to behave as socially conscious individual, whose voting habits were based on the needs of all. Howerever, by the time Clinton took office he realized that the old Democratic principles no longer applied, and the bulk of swing voters had adpted a costumer based approach to politics. This meant that people only cared about their selfish desires, and therefore, any attempt at raisin taxes in order to care for the less fortunate would be met with great discontent. His health care reform and the traditional welfare system that was in place for over 50 years came to an end.

Democrats were left with no choise but to adopt the Bernays model or face an uphill battle. That is how Clinton got reelected.

For the last 20 years Democrats have been playing this game. That is until Obama took office, he knows that Reagan is held in a pedestal so he doesn't dare go after his legacy. However, he did win the election by attacking Bushes policies, which are modeled after Reaganomics.

What this 2012 election comes down to now is whether swing voters still behave as costumers. That my friends is the stark difference between Romney and Obama. I watch this race with both excitement and fear.

[mangamuscle]

In a nutshell, what I learned years ago watching anime is more relevant today than back then "don't trust the mass media, they will hide the truth or downright lie to you"

[GundamFan0083]

Originally Posted by Sugetsu

I am surprised you were not aware of this. Reagan was the emissary of corporate interests. He was the one who finally started the process of selling the US to corporations. There is even footage of him being told when to speak and when not to (I am looking for it, I forgot where i saw it XD, but when I do I"ll link it here). He was an important puppet.

I was talking about REASON magazine not Ronald Reagan, but you are absolutely correct Sugetsu, Reagan was a corporate puppet, but hardly the first.

This process of corporatism started in the early 1900s with the Federal Reserve, Income Tax, etc. Reagan just helped boost us into the next step after corporatism, that being Fascism.

Here is an excerpt from the documentary, which explains in full detail, how Reagan came to power and the forces behind him:

Very interesting film Sugetsu, thanks for that.

Edit 3: 3:46:40 Edward barneys' plan for society and how to control individuals through politics and the free market.

Bernays was a coporate-socialist, he had no interest in the Free-Market system.
Remember, the free-market (as Adam Smith defined it) means that people choose what products will succeed or fail through their buying power.
Bernays wanted to destroy that and wanted corporations dictating (through advertising) what people bought and consumed.

Part 2:

Originally Posted by Sugetsu

For those who got no time to watch the segments i just posted; the conservative voter's mentality has been molded by Freudian analysis to Emulate the behaviour of customers. The father of this idea was Edward Bernays, who based on his brother's idea of human nature, believed that human beings are irrational emotional machines and the only way to control them is by fullfiling their selfish desires through the free market.

By that definition there are no Liberals left in the US save people like me.
What you are saying is that since all Americans are consumer minded, all are conservatives, and we both know that's not true.

What this 2012 election comes down to now is whether swing voters still behave as costumers. That my friends is the stark difference between Romney and Obama. I watch this race with both excitement and fear.

Wrong, way to put your own Bernays style spin on it Sugetsu.
Let's look quickly at the major piece of legislation that Obama has passed, the Health Care Law.
What was the model for that law?
Romineycare in Mass.

Does Obama support war with Iran?
Yep.
Does Rominey?
Yep.

Did Obama bail out the banks?
Yep.
Would Rominey have done that?
Yep.

Should I go on?
You are voting for Obaminey or Robama, either way Wall Street wins and the agenda started back at the turn of the 20th century will continue to its fascist conclusion.

If you really want change you currently have no choice but to vote 3rd party.
Personally I see the Libertarians as the best bet right now.
They are FAR from my ideal political group, but they are the best that exists in the US right now.

If you vote for either Repub or Dem at this point, you are simply throwing away your vote.

[mangamuscle]

Originally Posted by GundamFan0083

If you vote for either Repub or Dem at this point, you are simply throwing away your vote.

IMO ATM you have no real options:

1. Vote repub. Fascist agenda moves two steps
1. Vote dem. Fascist agenda moves one step
1. Vote 3rd party. Throw away your vote since ATM no one takes those small parties seriously (not even themselves)
1. Do not vote. Agenda moves on, thanks for your cooperation.

As times goes on with the voting machines having no paper trace and being easy to hack, there wil be a time that the elections become truly a farse. Ten years ago the GitS TV series talked about the "american empire", seems we are getting there little by little

[GundamFan0083]

Originally Posted by mangamuscle

IMO ATM you have no real options:

1. Vote repub. Fascist agenda moves two steps
1. Vote dem. Fascist agenda moves one step
1. Vote 3rd party. Throw away your vote since ATM no one takes those small parties seriously (not even themselves)
1. Do not vote. Agenda moves on, thanks for your cooperation.

As times goes on with the voting machines having to paper trace and being easy to hack, there wil be a time that the elections become truly a farse. Ten years ago the GitS TV series talked about the "american empire", seems we are getting there little by little

I can't argue.
Sadly, you are probably closer to the truth than I am willing to admit, but I do keep up hope that Americans will wake up and actually start voting responsibly.
Is that willfully delusional of me?
Probably.

[mangamuscle]

Originally Posted by GundamFan0083

I do keep up hope that Americans will wake up and actually start voting responsibly.

IMO that is part of the problem, people are used to voting as the ONLY option to change a country bearing, they emit their vote every several years and forget about the whole thing the next minute. I do not mean that people should go into the streets in senseless fits of hopesslessnes like OWS or that they become pawns of big money like the WASP err TEA party. Remember what happened with SOPA a few months ago, I people protest against such impositions then politicians would not have a blank check to do as they (and their masters) please.

"The price of freedom is eternal vigilance." - Thomas Jefferson.

[Mr. DJ]

Nobody seems to really know that Obamacare is Romneycare and it's giving me such a massive headache -_- and somehow it wouldn't surprise me if Obama was used to test out Romneycare on a national level under his name...

[synaesthetic]

Originally Posted by mangamuscle

IMO ATM you have no real options:

1. Vote repub. Fascist agenda moves two steps
1. Vote dem. Fascist agenda moves one step
1. Vote 3rd party. Throw away your vote since ATM no one takes those small parties seriously (not even themselves)
1. Do not vote. Agenda moves on, thanks for your cooperation.

As times goes on with the voting machines having no paper trace and being easy to hack, there wil be a time that the elections become truly a farse. Ten years ago the GitS TV series talked about the "american empire", seems we are getting there little by little

Which is exactly what I've been trying to tell Vallen Chaos Valiant for ages, but he still won't listen. It's hard to understand just how fucked up the American system is unless you actually live in America.

This is why I don't vote for president. It's pointless. There's no reason to bother. No matter what you do, they--the corporatist one-percenters--win. The game is rigged. The dice are weighted. You roll snake-eyes every time, and nobody will let you change for a fresh pair of dice.

Why bother voting, then? Your effort does nothing. Why expend energy for no purpose? It's pointless. Until we start seeing five and six different candidates from a wide variety of different political parties, all very different, and none on the corporate take, then voting is largely pointless. Because right now you're either voting Military-Industrial Complex (Republican) or Big Content (Democrat) for President.

[mangamuscle]

^ That is akin to going everyday to a restaurant, looking at the menu, disliking everything on it, and leaving the place hungry because your did not order anything. That path leads to madness! You must do something, make your own local party if need be, that is what social networks are good for, if one year ago arabs can change the political systemin many countries, then why you would not?

[synaesthetic]

Originally Posted by mangamuscle

^ That is akin to going everyday to a restaurant, looking at the menu, disliking everything on it, and leaving the place hungry because your did not order anything. That path leads to madness! You must do something, make your own local party if need be, that is what social networks are good for, if one year ago arabs can change the political systemin many countries, then why you would not?

I've got more pressing things to worry about, like passing calculus, putting food on the table, and making sure I don't wind up on the streets--again. Unfortunately the hierarchy of needs doesn't allow me to do much other than talk to people.

I don't have the time, energy or the money to run a political activism group, and I'm also getting very tired.

I'm just a person. A powerless, penniless person. I couldn't even get myself a job right now, much less convince a statistically significant number of people to vote for an alternate political party.

Not to mention that even if we were to use the internet to force a third (or fourth, fifth, etc) political party into the system, ultimately it would always return right to where it began. The "first-past-the-post" system of elections is guaranteed to always result in a two-party system.

[Sugetsu]

Originally Posted by GundamFan0083

This process of corporatism started in the early 1900s with the Federal Reserve, Income Tax, etc. Reagan just helped boost us into the next step after corporatism, that being Fascism.

The process of corporatism started way back in the 1930s when the federal reserve became as federal as federal express. Edward Bernays was also working hard behind the scenes to change the perception that people had about buying. Everything came full circle when Reagan took office thanks to the implementation of Freudian focus group physiology.

Very interesting film Sugetsu, thanks for that.

I am glad you like it. But it is actually a long documentary series. I hope you can watch the whole thing at least twice, there are some very complex but very important subjects in it.

By the way, the two videos you linked come from the documentary Not sure if you were aware of that.

Bernays was a coporate-socialist, he had no interest in the Free-Market system.
Remember, the free-market (as Adam Smith defined it) means that people choose what products will succeed or fail through their buying power.
Bernays wanted to destroy that and wanted corporations dictating (through advertising) what people bought and consumed.

Bernays adopted his brother's philosophy on human nature. We are all irrational emotional creatures whose wants and needs must be constantly satisfied in order to keep us from running wild. Therefore, the free market system to him was just a charade to keep society under control, he believes that the ruling elite must manage the population behind the scenes, and guess what? It is already happening.

In fact, let me dare saying that Bernays' dreams came through in a way, and we are all puppets in this endless consumer market oriented system. Big corporations control information, food, transportation and virtually everything already.

By that definition there are no Liberals left in the US save people like me.
What you are saying is that since all Americans are consumer minded, all are conservatives, and we both know that's not true.

That's not what I said. There is a large part of the population which is categorized by Freudian analysis as the "inner directives"; "These are people who are not defined by their place in society, but by the choices they made themselves" "Personal satisfaction is more important than status or money, they tend to be self expressive, complex and individualistic". There are also other kinds of individuals but the inner directives are the most prominent. They make the perfect consumers and republican politics was remodeled to attract these type of voters.

Wrong, way to put your own Bernays style spin on it Sugetsu.
Let's look quickly at the major piece of legislation that Obama has passed, the Health Care Law.
What was the model for that law?

Obama's health care model was indeed taken after Romney, but they first explored other options, such as single payer and the public option, but these were quickly tossed out because pooling data showed they were very unpopular. Again, this is due to Reagan era influence.

Did Obama bail out the banks?
Yep.
Would Rominey have done that?
Yep.

It was either bailing out the banks or nationalising them. Again, based on the Reagan era influence what is the only option left?

As for the Obama supporting a war with Iran; this is not true. The left would be crying high and mighty if he supported it.

Should I go on?
You are voting for Obaminey or Robama, either way Wall Street wins and the agenda started back at the turn of the 20th century will continue to its fascist conclusion.

If you really want change you currently have no choice but to vote 3rd party.
Personally I see the Libertarians as the best bet right now.
They are FAR from my ideal political group, but they are the best that exists in the US right now.

If you vote for either Repub or Dem at this point, you are simply throwing away your vote.

Democrats and republicans are playing under the same consumer minded model, because they know that a large portion of people are inner directives, as the documentary pointed out, the labor party was forced to adapt as well or face extinction. However, Democrats at the core still believe that being socially aware is more important than being individualistic and their policies continue to reflect this ideology.

But I digress, nothing will truly change in This capitalist system who has been high-jacked by Edward Bernays and Any Rand. So long as corporations control our lives, so long as FIAT currency is the norm, so long as money is considered a goal but not a tool for living, so long as politicians instead of scientist continue address the problems in society nothing ever change.

A 3rd party is a political party, and politics is nothing but a struggle for power, struggle will lead to resistance, resistance will lead to force, and force will lead to violence. In the end it will become part of a two party political system due the principle of force and resistance, a simple law of nature.

I pick Obama simply because he is the lesser of two evils, if I were in charge of this country I would turn it upside down.

[mangamuscle]

Originally Posted by synaesthetic

I'm just a person.

As long as you have a voice, you are part of the solution (or the problem). Telling people, do not vote, you are powerless, only the rich and the powerful decide tis country future is just sharing your discouragement with everybody and HELPING the powers that be continue to remove your constitutional rights. It uses the same amount of time and energy to tell people to not participate in politics at all as to tell people why the system is wrong, it is your desicion how do you use your time and energy.

Not to mention that even if we were to use the internet to force a third (or fourth, fifth, etc) political party into the system, ultimately it would always return right to where it began. The "first-past-the-post" system of elections is guaranteed to always result in a two-party system.

Many people do not realize the system is rigged, someone needs to tell them.

Originally Posted by Sugetsu

if I were in charge of this country I would turn it upside down.

If I got a dime everytime somebody said that. Everybody wants the one ring and everybody thinks THEY are the ones that could change everything for good. TBT power corrupts, the mere sight of it corrupts, I have seen it happen in my country political system. The real problem is the concentration of power, specificaly, the executive branch continues to do a power grab every year and you are not you are not too far away from having a new king instead of a new president.

[Dhomochevsky]

Obviously a third party can never win, or do anything worthwhile in the U.S. system.
But still, you should try to vote for one, instead of not voting at all.

The idea is, that if a third party gets a good amount of votes (which are 'wasted' for influencing the outcome of this election), then strategists for both big parties will notice this.

They will see that there is a good amount of votes from active voters here, that don't belong to either big block yet.
They might want to tap into this reservoire in the next election (or during elections on the state level). They can do that by incorporating some of the third party's maxims.

That way, voting for a third party can have an impact, even though your voting system is really screwed up.

[Lord of Fire]

Originally Posted by Dhomochevsky

Obviously a third party can never win, or do anything worthwhile in the U.S. system.
But still, you should try to vote for one, instead of not voting at all.

The idea is, that if a third party gets a good amount of votes (which are 'wasted' for influencing the outcome of this election), then strategists for both big parties will notice this.

They will see that there is a good amount of votes from active voters here, that don't belong to either big block yet.
They might want to tap into this reservoire in the next election (or during elections on the state level). They can do that by incorporating some of the third party's maxims.

That way, voting for a third party can have an impact, even though your voting system is really screwed up.

But it won't do any good if the party you actually voted for will never have any chance of winning. As much as the major parties like to import viewpoints from third parties, they'll often not follow through with them when they've won the election, giving voters even less incentive to vote for them next time.

If I vote, I want the party I vote for to win, not act as some sort of reserve for any of the major parties to lay claim to if they get the majority of the votes.

[flying ^]

Originally Posted by synaesthetic

I'm just a person. A powerless, penniless person. I couldn't even get myself a job right now...

i'll just leave this here
http://www.filestube.com/d386470df1029ddc03ea/go.html
give this a goood read like I did

[Mr. DJ]

Neal Boortz has it all figured out

http://theghostfighters.wordpress.co...eathly-silent/

[flying ^]

Originally Posted by Mr. DJ

Neal Boortz has it all figured out

http://theghostfighters.wordpress.co...eathly-silent/

Great speech!

I'm gonna pass this around my FB friends who just recently graduated in USC!

[Dhomochevsky]

Originally Posted by Lord of Fire

But it won't do any good if the party you actually voted for will never have any chance of winning. As much as the major parties like to import viewpoints from third parties, they'll often not follow through with them when they've won the election, giving voters even less incentive to vote for them next time.

If I vote, I want the party I vote for to win, not act as some sort of reserve for any of the major parties to lay claim to if they get the majority of the votes.

You just have to step away from idea, that your votes can actually force the parties to do something. They can't.
See it more like a survey, than an instrument to delegate power.

What happens if you vote for one of the major parties?
That's like telling them 'I'm ok with how you did things, carry on'. In no way can you influence the party's politics by that.
Sure you could vote for the other big party, but in a two party system, that is not an option for most people.

Also this only works, if you want your party to be more like the other party. Which does not make much sense, because then you could just vote that one.
But what if you want the dems to be more 'democratic', or the reps to be more 'republican'? How do you convey that? You can't.
Unless you pick a third party that is on the far side of the spectrum.

Same goes for special interests.

Example from Europe:
Want to stop all the ACTA/media lobbying bullshit? Vote pirates.
Yes, different voting systems, but..
They will never be in any government either. Objectively, votes for them are wasted. But it sends a clear message.
A message, that seems to have been picked up on. Suddenly every major party has a standpoint on the issue, when before none had one.


Sure, this is a bit idealistic and politicians will weigh their lobby money against additional votes. But a least I am sure it does have some effect.
So before you give up on voting, better do this.

[synaesthetic]

Originally Posted by Mr. DJ

Neal Boortz has it all figured out

http://theghostfighters.wordpress.co...eathly-silent/

Conservatives also lie about individuals, and then slob the knob of gigantic corporations--the very opposite of the individual--behind the scenes. Actually, they aren't even trying to hide it anymore, it's basically the political equivalent of public blowjobs these days.

I'm sorry, but as soon as I got to the stupid tripe about "those who can't, teach" I stopped taking this pile of horseshit even the slightest bit seriously.

Those who do would never be able to do without those who teach. Actuality always precedes potentiality. Knowledge doesn't just fucking magically appear in your brain. We stand on the shoulders of giants because of those who came before us, those who impart their knowledge and experience unto us.

Isn't this the whole "conservative" mindset, though? "I am an island. Fuck you, I've got mine. My, me, mine. You don't matter, only I do."

I'd like to see exactly how much these peoples' views change when they end up homeless, penniless and on the streets or in a shelter sleeping next to a half-dozen crazy people and drug addicts every night.

I'm really not surprised to see yet another conservative/Republican/douchenozzle slamming and demonizing education. When you educate someone, you cannot control them.