Medaka Box [Manga]

[Takigashima]

I think her choosing of the flask plan goes all the way back to middle school. I re-read some chapters and it feels like during the minus arc that kuma was jealous of zen.
Ajimu may have chosen kuma as her first subject, but he was a failure (literal and figurative) and came across Zen, some who matched her ideals.
This could have lead to the middle school event which no-one but kuma and Ajimu know about, and a possible reason as to why kuma really made naked apron alliance.
Must remember, Kuma ALWAYS lies.

[solomon]

Just recently got into the manga. Not totally caught up (at 92) but getting there.

Started slow then grew on me, fun brawler. Little (more like very thanks to Nishi) wordy but the fights are cool. Nice jokes dropped every once in a while too. Nice to see a female actually kick MAJOR ass in shonen (usually it's just minor ass).

Also

Spoiler for probably not at this rate but:

Was I the only one who thought Medaka II was SERIOUSLY FUCKING HOT?

[Haesslich]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

I wouldn't say that it's completely impossible...the way Ajimu framed Zenkichi's position was made to look as if he had no other choice if he wanted to be "special" to Medaka...and Medaka has responded to her disappointment in Zenkichi by deciding that fighting him is her only choice in helping him grow. However much it could be said that Medaka prefers her "enemies", however, you have never seen Unzen or Kumagawa cause Medaka to break down into tears. The value that Medaka used to place on Zenkichi was that she thought he was someone who truly shared and understood her ideals. The reason she's grown disillusioned with him now is because she's learned that, rather than understanding her, Zenkichi has actually just been following along with her and acting like whatever she's said has been right. Medaka is encouraging Zen's growth now because she would rather he fight for his own ideals than pretend to go along with hers; but really what Medaka would most appreciate is a "friend" who, on an equal level, genuinely shares her dreams and aspirations.

Medaka and Zenkichi would not have to fight if their goals and ideals were actually the same. The problem is that Zenkichi is not even looking at Medaka's dreams or ideals in the first place, only at the "position" of being the most special person in her heart. What Zenkichi doesn't understand is that it's not, as Ajimu is telling him, her enemies that Medaka would most truly value, but rather someone who genuinely shares her dream. It's only the fact that no such person has yet existed that makes it look like Medaka prefers her enemies.

The thing which could restore the Student Council to peace and repair Zen and Medaka's relationship is if they could come to genuinely support and understand each other. Ajimu has mired Zenkichi in self-doubt and worries about his own position, and Medaka has given up on being understood by Zen without speaking through their fists and bodies, but it's the potential to snap both of them out of this narrow perspective that is represented by Kikaijima's faction.

Is it wrong to want everyone to be happy? Is it wrong to hope that every person could work passionately towards their dreams and their goals? Up to now, deep in his heart, Zenkichi has believed that that isn't possible. (Up until the treasure hunt arc, Akune had believed he was too guilty to deserve such an opportunity. Up to the Election Battles, Kumagawa had believed that that was a world in which the Minus could never take part.) Certainly, Medaka is now encouraging Zenkichi to become strong enough to prove to her that it isn't possible, if that's what he truly believes in. This is what her current actions seem to represent and what is making Kikaijima most upset: giving up hope on Zen ever understanding her and resorting to fists to prove who is right . However what would make Medaka truly happy, restore Zenkichi's place beside her, and eliminate the need to fight, would be if Zenkichi could come to genuinely believe that making others happy, (as well as making himself happy as he told her back when he helped Medaka II change back into herself), was for himself also a worthwhile and achievable goal.

The way things stand right now, returning to that 'happy happy place' is impossible - the innocence is gone, and the look of disgust will linger in Zen's mind to some extent, even if he tries to ignore it. He now knows Medaka no longer considers him 'special' - in fact, she dislikes the idea that he's not only not special, but that he is 'that type' of person (aka: one who can't completely believe in others, such as Kumagawa), and one who managed to stay by her side so long while apparently holding such ideas.

Medaka can't take back her words, or the beating. It's not something that a smile and a 'sorry about that' will fix. Zen can't take back his words, or the bad feelings which have been exchanged. Short of removing all their memories of the incident, neither Zen or Medaka will lapse back into their previous relationship without a fault... and unless you wipe everyone else's memories of the events, they'll remember it, and their behavior will be altered by the memory.

Zen's always had the self-doubt; it's something that comes with being human, especially one who's had to try and keep up with someone who is impossibly skilled and competent in comparison. All Ajimu did was provide other people who could keep up with Medaka, or at least go along with her ideas, and by doing so make Zen seem less special. Ajimu didn't make Kumagawa tear her face off in middle school, did not make Kumagawa the negative bastard he always was (as far as we know), and didn't make Kumagawa tell Medaka that life was worthless. Nor did she make Zen tell Medaka that her purpose was to make people happy.

Their old relationship is forever altered - they'll have to go on from this point, and figure out a basis for a new one.

As for making everyone happy, I'm with Zen - it's impossible, especially since some people's idea of happy is to kill other people (which would make those other people unhappy). Happiness is something a person has to find on their own - Medaka can't MAKE them happy, but can make conditions where they can have a chance to be happy. Medaka seems to believe that other people's idea of happiness is like her own - that they'll be happy, once they achieve their purpose. Minuses go out of their way to be unhappy, which is why Kumagawa bothered Medaka for ages... as she ended up beating the daylights out of him, and realized that she couldn't make him happy, no matter what she did, and she couldn't beat him into being happy.

What Zen needs to do now is figure out what he can do, rather than focus on being 'normal' as the core of his identity. He isn't normal now, and never really was normal in the 'average' sense of the word. Such a being does not exist, given the wide range of human ability and personalities - nobody can be that SINGLE 'average' person by which everyone else's 'normal' can be measured.

Of course, given how battle-happy Medaka's been the last 40 chapters, it's no wonder he's decided to try to beat her in a fight to show her the courage of his convictions; he's convinced that's the only way to reach her, and the examples of Kikaijima, Akune, and Kumagawa (former opponents, now friendS) along with the others in every other arc coming to support her during her fight with Kumagawa doesn't help this impression.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by solomon

Just recently got into the manga. Not totally caught up (at 92) but getting there.

Started slow then grew on me, fun brawler. Little (more like very thanks to Nishi) wordy but the fights are cool. Nice jokes dropped every once in a while too. Nice to see a female actually kick MAJOR ass in shonen (usually it's just minor ass).

Also

Spoiler for probably not at this rate but:

Was I the only one who thought Medaka II was SERIOUSLY FUCKING HOT?

Welcome to the party. Nice to see new faces getting popping up and getting into this manga--as we ramp up towards the anime, I hope we'll see even more.

(Haha, Medaka is hot when she is being boss in general. Much as her goal is to help people, you're right, Medaka is most awesome when she is kicking major ass.)

Originally Posted by Haesslich

The way things stand right now, returning to that 'happy happy place' is impossible - the innocence is gone, and the look of disgust will linger in Zen's mind to some extent, even if he tries to ignore it. He now knows Medaka no longer considers him 'special' - in fact, she dislikes the idea that he's not only not special, but that he is 'that type' of person (aka: one who can't completely believe in others, such as Kumagawa), and one who managed to stay by her side so long while apparently holding such ideas.

Medaka can't take back her words, or the beating. It's not something that a smile and a 'sorry about that' will fix. Zen can't take back his words, or the bad feelings which have been exchanged. Short of removing all their memories of the incident, neither Zen or Medaka will lapse back into their previous relationship without a fault... and unless you wipe everyone else's memories of the events, they'll remember it, and their behavior will be altered by the memory.

Medaka's words/beating or Zenkichi's rebellion aren't things to be taken back--they're things to be overcome. Sure, the Treasure Hunt revealed that they had some real differences, but it's not like they're irreconcilable. The fight between Medaka and Zenkichi right now is not about bad feelings, it's about the fact that they think they have no choice but to purposely support and exaggerate those differences to salvage their relationship. From Kikaijima's perspective, however, the point is that even if Zenkichi truly didn't understand Medaka's ideals previously, he is in a position and has such potential that there is no reason he could not in fact easily learn.

Zen's always had the self-doubt; it's something that comes with being human, especially one who's had to try and keep up with someone who is impossibly skilled and competent in comparison. All Ajimu did was provide other people who could keep up with Medaka, or at least go along with her ideas, and by doing so make Zen seem less special. Ajimu didn't make Kumagawa tear her face off in middle school, did not make Kumagawa the negative bastard he always was (as far as we know), and didn't make Kumagawa tell Medaka that life was worthless. Nor did she make Zen tell Medaka that her purpose was to make people happy.

It's not that Zenkichi's self-doubt comes with being human--you are correct to identify that it specifically comes from his relationship with Medaka. The reason Zenkichi has always projected Medaka with an impossible purpose he has never held himself, is because he's always believed that she really is impossibly better him. However, that is what is wrong and unnatural, because the dream that Zenkichi foisted onto Medaka is just as impossible for her as for any other human. It's not that Medaka is unnaturally self-confident--she's had her own share of lapses and difficulties chasing those ideals herself, obviously--it is rather Zenkichi who has the exaggerated degree of self-doubt.

Their old relationship is forever altered - they'll have to go on from this point, and figure out a basis for a new one.

But this is what would be simple from Kikaijima's perspective. Of the Hadoka Apron faction, Medaka already showed them a brilliant basis for the creation of such relationships--friendship, teamwork, "the adventure is the prize" (:P, lol). Even Zenkichi's self-doubt wouldn't have mattered had he been able to take part in it. And, given that in the first place it was Medaka's ideal, even now, it is certainly easy to say that she would prefer such an outcome over fighting.

As for making everyone happy, I'm with Zen - it's impossible, especially since some people's idea of happy is to kill other people (which would make those other people unhappy). Happiness is something a person has to find on their own - Medaka can't MAKE them happy, but can make conditions where they can have a chance to be happy. Medaka seems to believe that other people's idea of happiness is like her own - that they'll be happy, once they achieve their purpose. Minuses go out of their way to be unhappy, which is why Kumagawa bothered Medaka for ages... as she ended up beating the daylights out of him, and realized that she couldn't make him happy, no matter what she did, and she couldn't beat him into being happy.

:P But, it's not that Zenkichi believes that making everyone happy is impossible--it's only that he believes that it's impossible for him. Zenkichi believes that Medaka, at least can do anything, which is why he's always seen her as an existence to bring happiness to everybody, nevermind his own existence though.

On murder: there is nobody who exists whose happiness is irrevocably tied with the act of killing other's in itself. In general what someone might relish is a sensation of power over others; or else a catharsis of suffering and hate. But happiness is fulfillment and self-actualization. It is something different from those two.

Regarding happiness being something that people grasp on their own: Medaka has indeed believed this from the start ("Your dreams are your own dreams; you should take on the challenge of fulfilling them. However, your worries are my worries; you can entrust every last one to me!"). However, the reason that Kumagawa's feud with Medaka was resolved at all was precisely due to the fact that, in the end, even Minuses will have a dream.

What Zen needs to do now is figure out what he can do, rather than focus on being 'normal' as the core of his identity. He isn't normal now, and never really was normal in the 'average' sense of the word. Such a being does not exist, given the wide range of human ability and personalities - nobody can be that SINGLE 'average' person by which everyone else's 'normal' can be measured.

Of course, given how battle-happy Medaka's been the last 40 chapters, it's no wonder he's decided to try to beat her in a fight to show her the courage of his convictions; he's convinced that's the only way to reach her, and the examples of Kikaijima, Akune, and Kumagawa (former opponents, now friendS) along with the others in every other arc coming to support her during her fight with Kumagawa doesn't help this impression.

Sure. Because the importance Medaka placed on Zenkichi was unfounded in the first place, Ajimu had no difficulty focusing Zenkichi's attention on the real relationships Medaka had formed. However, what Zenkichi missed out on was the relationship that Medaka had thought she had had. One in which he certainly was, in fact, special. If only Zenkichi could understand how struggle to improve himself in that regard, he really wouldn't need to resort the Ajimu's aid and fighting.

[MD84]

All motivations and analysis aside, the last few chapters have not portrayed Medaka in a very positive light. Beating up a childhood "friend" during his nervous breakdown and telling him he doesn't measure up in her eyes anymore? Harsh. Responding to a challenge to her ideals with unmitigated glee (instead of trying to reach out to him with words in a meaningful discussion) followed by slamming his head into the floor? Harsh. Beating the crap out of him physically and verbally in a twisted attempt to motivate him? Even if it's supposedly for his own good, still pretty twisted. Finally, when a mutual friend wanted Medaka to apologize to Zenkichi and asked if Zenkichi wasn't someone special to her as an old friend, Medaka straight up told her that no one is special in the world. She even declared that leaving him at her side was a mistake, and that she should have made him her enemy earlier. She really wants this fight to happen. Just like with everything else in life, Medaka takes "tough love" to a ludicrous extreme.

The relationship could still be salvaged without a fight. It would require Medaka to change, not Zenkichi. The idiocy of his decision to join the Flask Plan aside, Zenkichi was still somewhat hoping that Medaka would at least try to reach out to him when he declared that she was wrong. Medaka was the one who struck the first blow and guaranteed that it would become a fight.

This isn't even touching on the reveal that Medaka is apparently a murderess who committed "patricide".

Ultimately, we really need to learn more about what the heck happened in middle school before we can analyze the characters.

Edit:

The more I think about it, the more it seems that Zenkichi was already a part of the Flask Plan for a good chunk of the series. Ever since he was given "Parasite Eyes" in fact. The whole purpose of the Flask Plan is to bring "Normal" people into the world of Abnormality, which seems to involve altering their fate and their perspective (as opposed to just giving them powers, which Ajimu can easily accomplish already). We've known for a while that Abnormalities aren't just another word for superpowers -- Koga Itami's Abnormality was her unfathomable desire to be superhuman. It would also help to justify Zenkichi's somewhat unreasonable angst -- Oudo did say that most Normals would likely break down under the strain of being made Abnormal.

[Takigashima]

Originally Posted by MD84

The more I think about it, the more it seems that Zenkichi was already a part of the Flask Plan for a good chunk of the series. Ever since he was given "Parasite Eyes" in fact. The whole purpose of the Flask Plan is to bring "Normal" people into the world of Abnormality, which seems to involve altering their fate and their perspective (as opposed to just giving them powers, which Ajimu can easily accomplish already). We've known for a while that Abnormalities aren't just another word for superpowers -- Koga Itami's Abnormality was her unfathomable desire to be superhuman. It would also help to justify Zenkichi's somewhat unreasonable angst -- Oudo did say that most Normals would likely break down under the strain of being made Abnormal.

Its what i said in an earlier post.
I believe he was hand picked from the start to be the subject of the Flask plan my Ajimu during middle school.
If you read the chapters of the Minus arc that compose of Zen and Kuma, Kuma shows a broad range of emotions that are not related to his normal outgoing appearance. Something that is akin to jealousy for likely having the love of the two girls he wanted ie. Ajimu and Hitoyoshi's mum. And medaka has bashed Zen around not once, but several times when he said or was attempting to do something SHE did not like/want ie. when he told Medaka that he would beat the crap out of Akune.

[MD84]

Originally Posted by Takigashima

Its what i said in an earlier post.
I believe he was hand picked from the start to be the subject of the Flask plan my Ajimu during middle school.
If you read the chapters of the Minus arc that compose of Zen and Kuma, Kuma shows a broad range of emotions that are not related to his normal outgoing appearance. Something that is akin to jealousy for likely having the love of the two girls he wanted ie. Ajimu and Hitoyoshi's mum. And medaka has bashed Zen around not once, but several times when he said or was attempting to do something SHE did not like/want ie. when he told Medaka that he would beat the crap out of Akune.

What I'm saying is that Ajimu had already started modifying him even before he gave his consent in chapter 117. I agree that she probably chose Zenkichi to become a guinea pig long before the series began.

Speaking of Kumagawa, it's kind of weird that Zenkichi is the only person he tried to permanently injure in a way that "All-fiction" couldn't undo or that Aka couldn't heal. Kumagawa actually took away Zenkichi's eyesight using All-fiction, and one of the ability's few limitations is that it can't restore anything it removes. Zenkichi is only able to see thanks to a side-effect of the Parasite-Eyes, and Kumagawa apparently did not expect that to happen.

[Last Carpet]

Originally Posted by Haesslich

The way things stand right now, returning to that 'happy happy place' is impossible - the innocence is gone, and the look of disgust will linger in Zen's mind to some extent, even if he tries to ignore it. He now knows Medaka no longer considers him 'special' - in fact, she dislikes the idea that he's not only not special, but that he is 'that type' of person (aka: one who can't completely believe in others, such as Kumagawa), and one who managed to stay by her side so long while apparently holding such ideas.

Medaka can't take back her words, or the beating. It's not something that a smile and a 'sorry about that' will fix. Zen can't take back his words, or the bad feelings which have been exchanged. Short of removing all their memories of the incident, neither Zen or Medaka will lapse back into their previous relationship without a fault... and unless you wipe everyone else's memories of the events, they'll remember it, and their behavior will be altered by the memory.

Their old relationship is forever altered - they'll have to go on from this point, and figure out a basis for a new one. .

Of course, given how battle-happy Medaka's been the last 40 chapters, it's no wonder he's decided to try to beat her in a fight to show her the courage of his convictions; he's convinced that's the only way to reach her, and the examples of Kikaijima, Akune, and Kumagawa (former opponents, now friendS) along with the others in every other arc coming to support her during her fight with Kumagawa doesn't help this impression.

You can go so far as to prove someone is wrong in something, such as their answer in solving a problem, their choices, or their worldview, but that someone could still choose to uphold their belief in it.

Even if Zen beats her and proves she's wrong, unless she's is willing to admit and acknowledge that she's wrong, things won't pick up for them from there.

And another thought

When Medaka beats someone, they change tend to change their ways. This follows the whole "Medaka is right, and her enemy is wrong pattern". But this is a new sequence here. In her past fights, this came through because of what her enemies were doing. But Zen's reasons for opposing Medaka have nothing to do with hurting people, like Unzen, Oudo and Kumagawa.

His reasons are more self-oriented. He's opposing Medaka because he wants to be special to her. His new belief is that people shouldn't always succeed, that failure is necessary. And Medaka's fighting on the opposite side, believing that people should always succeed to be happy. So by fighting Zen, is she going to make him happy by beating him?

It seems counterproductive for Medaka to fight Zen. She beats Zen, she doesn't make him happy because he couldn't defeat her, or maybe she beats him and Zen gets up still intent on defeating her despite his failure, not making him happy but still proving her wrong. Or Zen beats her, he proves that people shouldn't win all the time. But just defeating her might not make her realize that she's wrong. Even so, would beating her bring their relationship back to where it was, no way. Who knows if he'd want anything to do with her after he won? Imagine him beating her and thinking, this is what it took, this is what I had to do to get you to recognize me?

Personally, I think failure would be good for her. Medaka herself said "Winners aren't strong, the strong ones are the losers who get back up" Considering the "make everyone succeed make everyone happy" way that she thinks, does Medaka even realize what a hypocrite she's being?

[MD84]

Originally Posted by Last Carpet

Personally, I think failure would be good for her. Medaka herself said "Winners aren't strong, the strong ones are the losers who get back up" Considering the "make everyone succeed make everyone happy" way that she thinks, does Medaka even realize what a hypocrite she's being?

Hilariously, the one time in her life she faced loss and rejection -- granted, it was Pre-Genre-Shift -- when an artist rejected her as a model for being TOO perfect, she didn't take it very well. To rub salt in the wound, the chosen model was Shiranui Hansode, one of the few people in the series who seems to genuinely hate Medaka.

[Takigashima]

I don't think zen will be happy regardless of win or lose. All he wants is for her to acknowledge that he is someone special to her. Ajimu is the only one who stated that he should win due to her past as a supposed killer. But zen could become happy for fighting, losing but gain the acknowledgment that he wants.
In a way, both meda and zen are in no win situations until they can come to an agreement, something that must be fought for because it's their ideals on the line.

[DawnEmperor]

Originally Posted by Last Carpet

You can go so far as to prove someone is wrong in something, such as their answer in solving a problem, their choices, or their worldview, but that someone could still choose to uphold their belief in it.

Even if Zen beats her and proves she's wrong, unless she's is willing to admit and acknowledge that she's wrong, things won't pick up for them from there.

And another thought

When Medaka beats someone, they change tend to change their ways. This follows the whole "Medaka is right, and her enemy is wrong pattern". But this is a new sequence here. In her past fights, this came through because of what her enemies were doing. But Zen's reasons for opposing Medaka have nothing to do with hurting people, like Unzen, Oudo and Kumagawa.

His reasons are more self-oriented. He's opposing Medaka because he wants to be special to her. His new belief is that people shouldn't always succeed, that failure is necessary. And Medaka's fighting on the opposite side, believing that people should always succeed to be happy. So by fighting Zen, is she going to make him happy by beating him?

It seems counterproductive for Medaka to fight Zen. She beats Zen, she doesn't make him happy because he couldn't defeat her, or maybe she beats him and Zen gets up still intent on defeating her despite his failure, not making him happy but still proving her wrong. Or Zen beats her, he proves that people shouldn't win all the time. But just defeating her might not make her realize that she's wrong. Even so, would beating her bring their relationship back to where it was, no way. Who knows if he'd want anything to do with her after he won? Imagine him beating her and thinking, this is what it took, this is what I had to do to get you to recognize me?

Personally, I think failure would be good for her. Medaka herself said "Winners aren't strong, the strong ones are the losers who get back up" Considering the "make everyone succeed make everyone happy" way that she thinks, does Medaka even realize what a hypocrite she's being?

I'll just play devil's advocate for a bit, and ask; did her enemies really change? Unzen may get along with the protagonists now, but that doesn't mean he doesn't terrorize students. And as we've seen, Kumagawa's still the same cheating- I mean, "charming" guy. Some would argue that Medaka focused their passions in another direction.

Zenkichi's primary reason for opposing her is to become special to her again, right? I'm sure he does want to prove Medaka wrong as well. Which one is the primary motivation?

And now for my personal views. I do think Medaka should learn failure, and as you said, failure is defined by one's own acceptance of it. According to Medaka, success is defined by happiness. And happiness has been considered the greatest state of mind in the series (and I assume, for many others in real life). Is that right?

[Soji]

All living beings want to be happy is a natural thing.
But this does not mean you can always be happy for all your life as it seems Medaka wants for people.

Anyway,the possibility that Najimi chose Zen for the flank plan since middle school seems to be the most logical thing to think(thanks Takigashima that make me think about this).
To think of it ,this thing would explain a few facts that seem to have occurred during that time.
would explain why Kumagawa said what he said when Zen recovered after their fight during the minus arc.
would explain why Kumagawa wanted a tie during that other time with the bomb ....and why he said "maybe we can talk again all three together after all this time"or something like that.
to think of it. this wuold also explain the skills that Zen has shown.
Like disarm weapons etc. ... maybe (and I repeat maybe) during the middle school he was already participating in the flank plan (although he does not remember right now).
The more one thinks in this way the more seems to get some answers to questions that still need to be answered.

[Tenchi Hou Take]

Originally Posted by Soji

All living beings want to be happy is a natural thing.
But this does not mean you can always be happy for all your life as it seems Medaka wants for people.

Anyway,the possibility that Najimi chose Zen for the flank plan since middle school seems to be the most logical thing to think(thanks Takigashima that make me think about this).
To think of it ,this thing would explain a few facts that seem to have occurred during that time.
would explain why Kumagawa said what he said when Zen recovered after their fight during the minus arc.
would explain why Kumagawa wanted a tie during that other time with the bomb ....and why he said "maybe we can talk again all three together after all this time"or something like that.
to think of it. this wuold also explain the skills that Zen has shown.
Like disarm weapons etc. ... maybe (and I repeat maybe) during the middle school he was already participating in the flank plan (although he does not remember right now).
The more one thinks in this way the more seems to get some answers to questions that still need to be answered.

It seems certain the disarming weapons is completely independent of the flask plan considering he himself remembers learning about how to do it (he does not seem to remember anything about meeting Aijimu in middle school) and he even gave a reason precisely why he learned it. Which was because of the fact that he's normal he has to work 10 times harder than anyone else and he also had to prepare 10 times more in order to survive so he essentially prepared for every single eventuality he believed hanging around with Medaka would cause (which included encountering bazooka's lol).

Considering Medaka forcibly dragged him around and begged him to follow her the entire time you gotta feel sorry that he fell in love with her.

[Soji]

Tenchi Hou Take@ I understand what you mean, but I thought more on this line......
we know that during the middle school Zen and medaka were not always together, and more distant to eachother(thanks to what Meguro said to Zen).
So I was wondering if during that timesomething similar has now is happened . (A deal from Najimi to zen to make him stronger) ... maybe Zen accepted the deal more easily because they were more in good term during that time? .. Who knows. Then maybe Kumagawa stops the whole thing and did what we know ... and before she was completely sealed away ,she used one of her many skills to make everyone forget ( or most of them) the events of that time, and (possibly) altered Zen memories in a way that he does not remembered her .
but at the same time he remebered t the skills that he learned during that time?(Only he thinks of he learn them himself).

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by MD84

All motivations and analysis aside, the last few chapters have not portrayed Medaka in a very positive light. Beating up a childhood "friend" during his nervous breakdown and telling him he doesn't measure up in her eyes anymore? Harsh. Responding to a challenge to her ideals with unmitigated glee (instead of trying to reach out to him with words in a meaningful discussion) followed by slamming his head into the floor? Harsh. Beating the crap out of him physically and verbally in a twisted attempt to motivate him? Even if it's supposedly for his own good, still pretty twisted. Finally, when a mutual friend wanted Medaka to apologize to Zenkichi and asked if Zenkichi wasn't someone special to her as an old friend, Medaka straight up told her that no one is special in the world. She even declared that leaving him at her side was a mistake, and that she should have made him her enemy earlier. She really wants this fight to happen. Just like with everything else in life, Medaka takes "tough love" to a ludicrous extreme.

lol, no, these chapters have been showing Medaka exactly the same way as they have pretty much always been showing her: as a monster. However, what Medaka is is not a monster, but a monster with a human inside. This has been pretty much the point of all the revelations about Medaka's character up to now, for the entire manga really: that what is behind Medaka's perfect appearance is a monster, and behind that monster is a normal girl. Now that Zenkichi--who always treated Medaka like her being a "perfect saint" was actually real--has gotten a good smack to awake him to reality: he's gonna have to get through the "monster" first before he can get to the "girl".

What the hell did he expect from falling in love with a beast like Medaka? lol. Making the monster return your affections will take a lot more than some boyish love and ideals.

The relationship could still be salvaged without a fight. It would require Medaka to change, not Zenkichi. The idiocy of his decision to join the Flask Plan aside, Zenkichi was still somewhat hoping that Medaka would at least try to reach out to him when he declared that she was wrong. Medaka was the one who struck the first blow and guaranteed that it would become a fight.

Medaka must certainly rethink her dismissal of Zen. However, the one person who must truly change is Zenkichi himself, as both he and his supporters know. If Zenkichi's been the same for 13 years, then it's time to stop being the 2 yr old kid.

This isn't even touching on the reveal that Medaka is apparently a murderess who committed "patricide".

The fact that you seem surprised by this shows you still don't get Medaka as a character.

Edit:

The more I think about it, the more it seems that Zenkichi was already a part of the Flask Plan for a good chunk of the series. Ever since he was given "Parasite Eyes" in fact. The whole purpose of the Flask Plan is to bring "Normal" people into the world of Abnormality, which seems to involve altering their fate and their perspective (as opposed to just giving them powers, which Ajimu can easily accomplish already). We've known for a while that Abnormalities aren't just another word for superpowers -- Koga Itami's Abnormality was her unfathomable desire to be superhuman. It would also help to justify Zenkichi's somewhat unreasonable angst -- Oudo did say that most Normals would likely break down under the strain of being made Abnormal.

Not Equals are not part of the Flask Plan, so I think here we have to formally lay out the difference between an "Abnormality" and a "Skill". An "Abnormality" is a quirk of personality--an identity quirk which cannot be turned off. A "Skill" is an ability which derives from that personality quirk. Incidentally, since Minus are skills said to arise from a person's environment, they are not part of a person's inherent identity in the same way.

What Ajimu has is 10 trillion Minuses and Skills--she does not hand out Abnormalities themselves. Abnormalities are bound to a person; but Ajimu's Skills are not.

I don't think Zenkichi has become an abnormal--he has only recieved a skill. I do think that in being a normal who recieved a skill Zenkichi must be extremely close in classification now to being a Not Equal. While on one hand, I think it's plausible that Zenkichi has been someone Ajimu's kept an eye on for a very long time, I don't think Ajimu's skills or Parasite Seeing have anything to do with the Flask Plan itself.

Originally Posted by Last Carpet

You can go so far as to prove someone is wrong in something, such as their answer in solving a problem, their choices, or their worldview, but that someone could still choose to uphold their belief in it.

Even if Zen beats her and proves she's wrong, unless she's is willing to admit and acknowledge that she's wrong, things won't pick up for them from there.

And another thought

When Medaka beats someone, they change tend to change their ways. This follows the whole "Medaka is right, and her enemy is wrong pattern". But this is a new sequence here. In her past fights, this came through because of what her enemies were doing. But Zen's reasons for opposing Medaka have nothing to do with hurting people, like Unzen, Oudo and Kumagawa.

His reasons are more self-oriented. He's opposing Medaka because he wants to be special to her. His new belief is that people shouldn't always succeed, that failure is necessary. And Medaka's fighting on the opposite side, believing that people should always succeed to be happy. So by fighting Zen, is she going to make him happy by beating him?

It seems counterproductive for Medaka to fight Zen. She beats Zen, she doesn't make him happy because he couldn't defeat her, or maybe she beats him and Zen gets up still intent on defeating her despite his failure, not making him happy but still proving her wrong. Or Zen beats her, he proves that people shouldn't win all the time. But just defeating her might not make her realize that she's wrong. Even so, would beating her bring their relationship back to where it was, no way. Who knows if he'd want anything to do with her after he won? Imagine him beating her and thinking, this is what it took, this is what I had to do to get you to recognize me?

Personally, I think failure would be good for her. Medaka herself said "Winners aren't strong, the strong ones are the losers who get back up" Considering the "make everyone succeed make everyone happy" way that she thinks, does Medaka even realize what a hypocrite she's being?

See, before calling Medaka a hypocrite, you have to actually prove that Medaka "wants to make people always succeed". Medaka isn't fighting Zen because she disagrees with him--she's just fighting him because he's such a clueless bastard that he didn't realize "people should be wrong sometimes" isn't even saying anything new. Nobody ever thought that Medaka is "too right" or "always right" in the first place, except for Zenkichi himself. Nobody knows better than Medaka herself the fact that she can be wrong--that's why she offered the Vice Pres position to Shiranui/Unzen/Kumagawa instead of people who worshipped her like Akune or Zen.

Anyway, here's a hint as to what Medaka actually believes in: it's for people to always try to succeed. And here's another hint regarding failure: Medaka did fail, in her past with Kumagawa, which is precisely why she is a stronger person now after having fought him again.

[DawnEmperor]

^
So now Medaka's just a monster with a girl inside?
Perhaps failure refers to unambiguous failure. Not something where if you try hard enough, you'll eventually succeed. Something that you've truly lost at. Kumagawa was pretty much the sole exception for some time, but she prevailed in the end.

We really don't know what's behind Medaka. Kikaijima calls her a normal girl whose alienated, Zenkichi regards her as a "perfect saint", and her enemies consider her a worthy opponent. I'd argue that the point of Medaka's character is precisely this ambiguity. We're mainly going by the projections of others. We judge Medaka as a monster, and we judge her as a tormented girl. Is she all these things or none of these things, or somewhere in between?

[MD84]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

lol, no, these chapters have been showing Medaka exactly the same way as they have pretty much always been showing her: as a monster. However, what Medaka is is not a monster, but a monster with a human inside. This has been pretty much the point of all the revelations about Medaka's character up to now, for the entire manga really: that what is behind Medaka's perfect appearance is a monster, and behind that monster is a normal girl. Now that Zenkichi--who always treated Medaka like her being a "perfect saint" was actually real--has gotten a good smack to awake him to reality: he's gonna have to get through the "monster" first before he can get to the "girl".

So now Medaka is some kind of bizarre Matroshka doll of characterization: Saint-like figure -> Amoral murderous monster -> lonely girl who fixated on the words of a two year old for a life purpose. So far we've seen precious little of that normal girl though I don't doubt that she's there (deep, deep down). And those chapters were the first time Medaka acted like a monster to someone that everyone else assumed was her closest friend. That's also when we discover her patricide.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

What the hell did he expect from falling in love with a beast like Medaka? lol. Making the monster return your affections will take a lot more than some boyish love and ideals.

Zenkichi didn't fall in love with the monster, he fell in love with the girl behind the monster behind the saint that he saw when he was a child. But at some point, likely around middle school, he lost sight of the girl, denied the monster, and was drawn in by the saint. Zenkichi had already given up on romance by the beginning of the series. All he wanted was to remain someone important to Medaka, someone special. Perhaps it is his fault that he didn't realize that Medaka's criteria for special people was very different from his own.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Medaka must certainly rethink her dismissal of Zen. However, the one person who must truly change is Zenkichi himself, as both he and his supporters know. If Zenkichi's been the same for 13 years, then it's time to stop being the 2 yr old kid.

This is certainly true. There was a moment during which he hoped that Medaka might try to talk him down from his challenge, maybe go back to the way things were. Medaka disabused him of that fleeting notion violently. At that point, any chance of returning to their old "happy" relationship was gone. Even if he does change, a peaceful resolution w/o a fight doesn't seem likely.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

The fact that you seem surprised by this shows you still don't get Medaka as a character.

Not surprised so much as disgusted. If she really did kill a father figure -- unless it was justifiable homicide somehow -- then she's not just a monster, she's a genuinely evil monster.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Not Equals are not part of the Flask Plan, so I think here we have to formally lay out the difference between an "Abnormality" and a "Skill". An "Abnormality" is a quirk of personality--an identity quirk which cannot be turned off. A "Skill" is an ability which derives from that personality quirk. Incidentally, since Minus are skills said to arise from a person's environment, they are not part of a person's inherent identity in the same way.

What Ajimu has is 10 trillion Minuses and Skills--she does not hand out Abnormalities themselves. Abnormalities are bound to a person; but Ajimu's Skills are not.

I don't think Zenkichi has become an abnormal--he has only recieved a skill. I do think that in being a normal who recieved a skill Zenkichi must be extremely close in classification now to being a Not Equal. While on one hand, I think it's plausible that Zenkichi has been someone Ajimu's kept an eye on for a very long time, I don't think Ajimu's skills or Parasite Seeing have anything to do with the Flask Plan itself.

Interesting analysis. Personally, I think the Not-Equals are associated with the Flask Plan, since all Not-Equals are somehow connected to Ajimu, and she is the mastermind behind the Plan.

Maybe Zenkichi isn't an Abnormal yet. I don't think he's a Not-Equal either since he doesn't seem to be connected to Ajimu in the same way as other Not Equals like the Successors and Aka (who is also a Skill-holder). Interestingly enough, Zenkichi's new ability seems to be messing with his mindset: an Abnormality of sorts is being derived from his Skill.

[Tenchi Hou Take]

Originally Posted by Soji

Tenchi Hou Take@ I understand what you mean, but I thought more on this line......
we know that during the middle school Zen and medaka were not always together, and more distant to eachother(thanks to what Meguro said to Zen).
So I was wondering if during that timesomething similar has now is happened . (A deal from Najimi to zen to make him stronger) ... maybe Zen accepted the deal more easily because they were more in good term during that time? .. Who knows. Then maybe Kumagawa stops the whole thing and did what we know ... and before she was completely sealed away ,she used one of her many skills to make everyone forget ( or most of them) the events of that time, and (possibly) altered Zen memories in a way that he does not remembered her .
but at the same time he remebered t the skills that he learned during that time?(Only he thinks of he learn them himself).

Yeah but the thing is thoses skills aren't special or unique, the whole point of those skills was that anyone could learn them from any book if they wanted to. He just learned the theory and was crazy enough to carry it out with no regards to his life (which is nothing new as he planned to simultaneousy take out him and Kumagawa). My point is it sounds precisely what Zenkichi would do naturally without going through special training. Looking retrospectively I'd be surprised if he didn't go to crazy lengths in preparation to be with Medaka, since he knows typical amounts of efforts wouldn't work out.

[Takigashima]

Maybe zen will be the first Equal or square root lol.

Pi(e) anyone?

[Last Carpet]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

See, before calling Medaka a hypocrite, you have to actually prove that Medaka "wants to make people always succeed". Medaka isn't fighting Zen because she disagrees with him--she's just fighting him because he's such a clueless bastard that he didn't realize "people should be wrong sometimes" isn't even saying anything new. Nobody ever thought that Medaka is "too right" or "always right" in the first place, except for Zenkichi himself. Nobody knows better than Medaka herself the fact that she can be wrong--that's why she offered the Vice Pres position to Shiranui/Unzen/Kumagawa instead of people who worshipped her like Akune or Zen.

Anyway, here's a hint as to what Medaka actually believes in: it's for people to always try to succeed. And here's another hint regarding failure: Medaka did fail, in her past with Kumagawa, which is precisely why she is a stronger person now after having fought him again.

What I'm wondering is if that belief is enough to beat her. No matter what the outcome of the fight, I'm pretty sure the end result will be Zen leaving Medaka's side for good. Or at least until she can decide how she really views him, who knows how she'll see him after the fight.

As for the other matter...

On the one hand you could see what happened as "Medaka defeated Misogi and forced him to leave their Middle school", a victory. Or you could view it as "Medaka beat Misogi until he begged her to stop and afterwards realized that she didn't actually make him happy", a failure.

It all really depends on the character's personal definition of failure.
If only we knew the exact details.