[Manga] Chapter 414 Discussion

[Endrance]

Originally Posted by JINBEI

when was Madara ever able to control the 8 tails? and besides Madara has EMS that could be why he is able to control the 9 tails.




Your seriously underrating Naruto.

The J-mans sage powers didn't cut it against Pein fact, that does not mean not Naruto who will master sage art will fail also. Unless you think Naruto is going to bust out with the same powers and abilities like the J-man, and the Kyuubi Key thing will make sure Naruto master's his Kyuubi chakra.IMO

I don't think konoha knows about the 8 tailed jinchuuriki, it was stated that they are secret weapons.IIRC.

considering they apparently new about yugito its a possibility that they also knew about killerbee

[Master Mold]

Originally Posted by Endrance

considering they apparently new about yugito its a possibility that they also knew about killerbee

Yugito is from the cloud, and the Killer Bee is a cloud nin, I would expect Cloud to know, of there jinchuuriki.

But I don't believe Knonha knows about them, unless there has been something I missed.

Originally Posted by SajberToent

He never did but it's reasonable to assume that he would be able to considering how the nine tails is a more powerful beast, nor did the eight tails jinchuuriki ever merit his anti-genjutsu ability to the eight tails, but rather as a general ability for jinchuurikis.

I'm not saying his tailed beast is special when it comes down to breaking out of Gen, I'm just saying him having the 8 tails inside him, and being able to control it will make him the number 1 enemy of Gen user's and spammers.

As for the EMS it's no different from a normal Mangekyo Sharingan, except for that it does not rob the user of his eyesight. We haven't seen anything like Sasuke's new Sharingan, it may very well be another version of Madara's EMS or something even greater.

Itachi said the transplant to gain EMS also gave birth to a completely new eye power.

In what way am I underrating Naruto? He's still got the same arsenal of jutsus that he had as a genin (no wait he's still a genin) hasn't (relatively at least) improved either. He just got an ultra-1-hit-KO move but since he can't use it liberally that changes nothing, he's still weak and can't compete with the likes of Sasuke. What the hell did he do for 3 whole years?

Naruto has yet to have a serious fight, why don't you wait until he fight a oppent worth while then talk trash, and just coz Naruto does not have alot of jutsus does not mean he has not improved. Naruto's hand to hand combat and speed was never a problem.

[Endrance]

Originally Posted by JINBEI

Yugito is from the cloud, and the Killer Bee is a cloud nin, I would expect Cloud to know, of there jinchuuriki.

But I don't believe Knonha knows about them, unless there has been something I missed.

Maybe not.. i go the info from the anime so i guess maybe it was just there and not the manga since i cant seem to find a reference to it anywhere

[SajberToent]

Originally Posted by JINBEI

I'm just saying him having the 8 tails inside him, and being able to control it will make him the number 1 enemy of Gen user's and spammers.

And what's the reasoning behind it? There's none really, I mean, we're not talking about any common genjutsu here. We're talking about THE most powerful genjutsu ever that's supposed to be impossible to escape from. Having two minds, one being a daemon beast still seems like a really poor excuse when even the deamon beasts are affected by it. And what the hell do you mean by 'spammers'?

Itachi said the transplant to gain EMS also gave birth to a completely new eye power.

He did? That's interesting, however that doesn't make Mangekyo any less of an ultimate genjutsu. We also witnessed Sasuke do something similar to Kyuubi when he faced Naruto earlier in the manga.

Naruto has yet to have a serious fight, why don't you wait until he fight a oppent worth while then talk trash, and just coz Naruto does not have alot of jutsus does not mean he has not improved. Naruto's hand to hand combat and speed was never a problem.

Well, I don't think many of us are expecting him to whip out alot of new moves. And his lack of speed and poor taijutsu has been one of the main reasons he's never been able to match Sasuke. If it weren't for his ability to use kyuubi's chakra he'd be quite useless, as he's an offensive ninja. Now he can't even control kyuubi's chakra very well, so what are his uses?

- And please, make an effort to type understandable English in your posts. It gets tedious to read and reply to them otherwise.

[Adediran242]

Originally Posted by SajberToent

And what's the reasoning behind it? There's none really, I mean, we're not talking about any common genjutsu here. We're talking about THE most powerful genjutsu ever that's supposed to be impossible to escape from. Having two minds, one being a daemon beast still seems like a really poor excuse when even the deamon beasts are affected by it. And what the hell do you mean by 'spammers'?

It hasn't been proven yet that the genjutsu used was Tsukuyomi, so it's only safe to assume it was a really powerful jutsu. Plus, the idea behind it seems perfectly plausible. We've always known that one of the ways to break genjutsu is to have your own chakra disrupted by chakra that comes from a different source. What Killerbee has done was put a creative spin on it.

Originally Posted by SajberToent

He did? That's interesting, however that doesn't make Mangekyo any less of an ultimate genjutsu. We also witnessed Sasuke do something similar to Kyuubi when he faced Naruto earlier in the manga.

Mangekyou Sharingan isn't a Genjutsu it is an enhanced variant of the Uchiha clan's Kekkei Genkai, the sharingan. The genjutsu I believe you are refering to is a technique from the Mangekyou. Sasuke's apparent taming of the Kyuubi was incredibly ambiguous in the manga and the anime. We know very little about the extent of that type of control. From the looks of things, Naruto was incredibly reluctant to take the Kyuubi's chakra, possibly from his prior experience in 4-tails mode.

Originally Posted by SajberToent

Well, I don't think many of us are expecting him to whip out alot of new moves. And his lack of speed and poor taijutsu has been one of the main reasons he's never been able to match Sasuke. If it weren't for his ability to use kyuubi's chakra he'd be quite useless, as he's an offensive ninja. Now he can't even control kyuubi's chakra very well, so what are his uses?

You are seriously underestimating Naruto. His speed and taijutsu aren't ever shown to be lacking in the manga, especially since he uses taijutsu as a primary form of offense and use Ninjutsu to supplement it. And as an offensive ninja, he is very impressive. Name me a ninja that has achieved what Naruto has achieved despite the drawbacks you are so ready to point out. He's proven his worth without Kyuubi and he will continue to do so.

I've also heard alot of talk on HJ possibly being able to deflect Amaterasu. The question I keep asking myself is how? Amaterasu isn't a beam or a blast, from what we are told, it's a fire that allmost spontaneously erupts wherever the user is looking, then burns for seven days. Any ideas for how he can escape? I actually want another Jinchuuriki to survive. Naruto is quickly becoming a member in an incredibly exclusive club

[quebas]

Originally Posted by Adediran242

I've also heard alot of talk on HJ possibly being able to deflect Amaterasu. The question I keep asking myself is how? Amaterasu isn't a beam or a blast, from what we are told, it's a fire that allmost spontaneously erupts wherever the user is looking, then burns for seven days. Any ideas for how he can escape? I actually want another Jinchuuriki to survive. Naruto is quickly becoming a member in an incredibly exclusive club

Well for me the 8 tails chakra should protect him from amaretsu, do you remember when naruto was in 4 tails mode and oro couldn't stab his sword on naruto because of it's chakra??

[Master Mold]

Originally Posted by SajberToent

And what's the reasoning behind it? There's none really, I mean, we're not talking about any common genjutsu here. We're talking about THE most powerful genjutsu ever that's supposed to be impossible to escape from. Having two minds, one being a daemon beast still seems like a really poor excuse when even the deamon beasts are affected by it. And what the hell do you mean by 'spammers'?

Where not talking about a guy with normal chakra we are talking about a guy who has the 2nd strongest Bijuu inside him, and on top of that he can control its power like its his left arm. You forget that the tailed beast are a HUGE Amount of pure chakra. you really think sasuke will have enough skill to still make his Gen work when he is going up against a beast who has a unhuman amount of unholy Chakra ready to combat any Gen?

The answer is simple its two much for Sasuke to handle....

He did? That's interesting, however that doesn't make Mangekyo any less of an ultimate genjutsu. We also witnessed Sasuke do something similar to Kyuubi when he faced Naruto earlier in the manga.

Sasuke just suppressed a small amount of Kyuubi, thats nothing compared to the 8 tails who is also one of the ultimate chakra supplies.

Well, I don't think many of us are expecting him to whip out alot of new moves. And his lack of speed and poor taijutsu has been one of the main reasons he's never been able to match Sasuke.

Really now, in part one Naruto was doing a good job in part 1, and in part 2 with what lil of speed and taijutsu we have seen Naruto display, I'd say he does not need to improve on that anymore.

If it weren't for his ability to use kyuubi's chakra he'd be quite useless, as he's an offensive ninja. Now he can't even control kyuubi's chakra very well, so what are his uses?

The same can be said about Sasuke and his Sharingan, and Are you asking me what are Naruto uses in combat? Why don't you just look at what Naruto has done to Kakuzu....

- And please, make an effort to type understandable English in your posts. It gets tedious to read and reply to them otherwise.

Maybe English is my 4th language.

[Frenchie]

And what's the reasoning behind it? There's none really, I mean, we're not talking about any common genjutsu here. We're talking about THE most powerful genjutsu ever that's supposed to be impossible to escape from. Having two minds, one being a daemon beast still seems like a really poor excuse when even the deamon beasts are affected by it. And what the hell do you mean by 'spammers'?

Hm. True, Sasuke can't possibly use genjutsu effectively on this particular occasion. However, I don't think the amount of chakra really makes the difference in dispelling genjutsu rather than how the flow is disrupted. In any case, the fact that we were previously explained how to dispel Genjutsu in the manga means that this fits in perfectly as well. If Kishi had pulled this out of his ass without any previous explanation, then yeah, I'd say it was plot no jutsu.

He did? That's interesting, however that doesn't make Mangekyo any less of an ultimate genjutsu. We also witnessed Sasuke do something similar to Kyuubi when he faced Naruto earlier in the manga.

JIN has a point, but seriously, have we been reading the same manga? How many times was it explained that the Sharingan had a power over the Kyuubi? Is the Hachibi the Kyuubi? Hum... well... there's the chakra shroud... and... huh... yeah that's it.

Well, I don't think many of us are expecting him to whip out alot of new moves. And his lack of speed and poor taijutsu has been one of the main reasons he's never been able to match Sasuke.

Well, it was at least on par with many of the Konoha gang. Sasuke was (and remains) a freak of nature that learns ridiculously fast. However, I think that's the whole point of senjutsu. Seeing what it did to Jiraiya's immediate abilities, it's going to fuel Naruto's speed and taijutsu insanely. Oh, and don't forget since shadow clones are virtual copies of him... hmm... 1,000 senjutsu Naruto's? Ouchies. (And not to mention his nuclear strike attack: The Rasenshuriken... currently at 50% completion.)

Naruto already has the potential to destroy the Narutoverse, don't make the mistake of underestimating the blondie boy.

[Endrance]

Originally Posted by quebas

Well for me the 8 tails chakra should protect him from amaretsu, do you remember when naruto was in 4 tails mode and oro couldn't stab his sword on naruto because of it's chakra??

A sword and Amaterasu are to completely different things. I could see the 8 tails chakra stopping a regular fire jutsu but Amaterasu isnt a regular fire jutsu

[SajberToent]

Originally Posted by Adediran242

We've always known that one of the ways to break genjutsu is to have your own chakra disrupted by chakra that comes from a different source. What Killerbee has done was put a creative spin on it.

I agree with that your theory does make sense, however the Mangekyou's genjutsu isn't your average Joe's technique. Even if a brute force of demon chakra could break it, I don't see why Sasuke wouldn't be able to use afflict both the host and eight tails with the genjutsu (judging from when he went inside Naruto and confronted Kyuubi).

Mangekyou Sharingan isn't a Genjutsu it is an enhanced variant of the Uchiha clan's Kekkei Genkai, the sharingan. The genjutsu I believe you are refering to is a technique from the Mangekyou.

Quite true, pardon me. The same genjutsu that Itachi used on Sasuke and Kakashi. I'm not sure wether it has a name or not.

Name me a ninja that has achieved what Naruto has achieved despite the drawbacks you are so ready to point out. He's proven his worth without Kyuubi and he will continue to do so.

Ehrm, how about Lee? Being without talent (s'posedly) and unable to use ninjutsu he came a long way, although we still don't know at what level he currently is.

Naruto isn't fighting genins anymore, he's fighting jounins and in a jounin fight his speed and taijutsu is average at best. Those being the very foundation of his offense since he needs them in order to deliver his powerful attacks, what's the point of rasengan if he can't hit? Well, he does have the summoning techniques at least, shame we haven't seen him use them in ages.

- Naruto would be lucky if he could survive an encounter versus even a pawn like Suigetsu Hozuki. Maybe the outcome would be different after the Sage training, should he learn to control the powers of the nine tails, then he may even take on the likes of Sasuke.

I've also heard alot of talk on HJ possibly being able to deflect Amaterasu. The question I keep asking myself is how? Amaterasu isn't a beam or a blast, from what we are told, it's a fire that allmost spontaneously erupts wherever the user is looking, then burns for seven days. Any ideas for how he can escape? I actually want another Jinchuuriki to survive. Naruto is quickly becoming a member in an incredibly exclusive club

I think that the eight tails fellow will survive, seeing how the others died without as much as a name and now suddenly this guy gets all the attention. I suspect that he's got a card or two yet to play in the series, possibly by befriending Naruto.

The same can be said about Sasuke and his Sharingan, and Are you asking me what are Naruto uses in combat? Why don't you just look at what Naruto has done to Kakuzu....

Sasuke is still the fastest character in the series with an arsenal of highly potent attacks, having access to both fire and lightning jutsus aswell as many of oro's summoning techniques. Naruto has kage bunshins, rasengan, another rasengan he can't afford to use, frog summonings and.. and... no wait, that's pretty much it.

As for Kakuzu he was already pretty much finished by the time that Naruto delivered the coup de grâce. If anything I found shikamaru to be far more impressive.

Maybe English is my 4th language.

English isn't my first language either, yet I try to keep my posts somewhat proper (ie. check spelling if unsure, no l337 or ghettospeak, skim through the post before posting etc). Although frequent misspellings and typos do occur.

[Master Mold]

Originally Posted by El_Frenchie

Hm. True, Sasuke can't possibly use genjutsu effectively on this particular occasion. However, I don't think the amount of chakra really makes the difference in dispelling genjutsu rather than how the flow is disrupted. In any case, the fact that we were previously explained how to dispel Genjutsu in the manga means that this fits in perfectly as well. If Kishi had pulled this out of his ass without any previous explanation, then yeah, I'd say it was plot no jutsu.

Well, think of a Genjutsu as a water Pipe, if someone puts a Pipe (Genjutsu) that has a limit to how much water (Chakra) it can hold (control), do you think it could take on a water supply that holds an amount 2nd to the Ocean?

I hope this was a good analogy.

[Frenchie]

Originally Posted by JINBEI

Well, think of a Genjutsu as a water Pipe, if someone puts a Pipe (Genjutsu) that has a limit to how much water (Chakra) it can hold (control), do you think it could take on a water supply that holds an amount 2nd to the Ocean?

I hope this was a good analogy.

Hahaha, touché. Point taken.

[SajberToent]

Originally Posted by JINBEI

Well, think of a Genjutsu as a water Pipe, if someone puts a Pipe (Genjutsu) that has a limit to how much water (Chakra) it can hold (control), do you think it could take on a water supply that holds an amount 2nd to the Ocean?

I hope this was a good analogy.

Too bad it doesn't hold water (Harr.. harr), if that were true then the demon fox would have been unaffected by the Sharingan's powers in the first place.

[Master Mold]

Originally Posted by SajberToent

Sasuke is still the fastest character in the series with an arsenal of highly potent attacks, having access to both fire and lightning jutsus aswell as many of oro's summoning techniques. Naruto has kage bunshins, rasengan, another rasengan he can't afford to use, frog summonings and.. and... no wait, that's pretty much it.

Sasuke does not have Oro White Snake power anymore. Naruto's kage bunshins are still Sasuke worse enemy, not to mention Naruto is a pro with them now, Naruto's wind element Jutsus will take care of Sasuke's lighting element. Yes, I know Naruto has not shown any other wind Jutsus besides his wind element rasengan, but if he was able to create the wind element rasengan, I'm pretty sure, Naruto has more of the lesser type of wind element Jutsus up his orange sleeve. Who knows what powers Naruto will get from his Sage training, and from the Kyuubi Key. Oh, yea there also the power Itachi gave him, and why wouldn't Naruto afford to summon frogs?

As for Kakuzu he was already pretty much finished by the time that Naruto delivered the coup de grâce. If anything I found shikamaru to be far more impressive.

Really now, Naruto was the one to kill him 3 times over, with one hit. Not to mention Naruto out witted a Nin who had who knows how many years of experience.

Too bad it doesn't hold water (Harr.. harr), if that were true then the demon fox would have been unaffected by the Sharingan's powers in the first place.

Controlling the Demon Fox could require the EMS, something Sasuke does not have. Not to mention it might not be a Genjutsu type technique.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by SajberToent

I agree with that your theory does make sense, however the Mangekyou's genjutsu isn't your average Joe's technique. Even if a brute force of demon chakra could break it, I don't see why Sasuke wouldn't be able to use afflict both the host and eight tails with the genjutsu (judging from when he went inside Naruto and confronted Kyuubi).

The Sharingan has a weird connection with the Kyuubi. Which was the reason that Danzou and company used the Kyuubi attack as an excuse (if not the sole reason) for the massacre of the Uchiha clan. The Sharingan has not been shown to control other Bijuu, only the Kyuubi. Whether the control is done via genjutsu or something else is unknown.

Originally Posted by SajberToent

Quite true, pardon me. The same genjutsu that Itachi used on Sasuke and Kakashi. I'm not sure wether it has a name or not.

Tsukuyomi. The most powerful Sharingan based Genjustsu.

Originally Posted by SajberToent

Ehrm, how about Lee? Being without talent (s'posedly) and unable to use ninjutsu he came a long way, although we still don't know at what level he currently is.

In the entire continuity of the story, Lee has only won one fight (if you can call it a fight), and that was against Sasuke pre-Chuunin exam. Lee has never once won another fight in the manga.

[nydude20]

part of naruto being weak is that fact that he is too concentrated in getting sasuke back. other's he'd have already learned some new jutsu. At least he's finally getting trained in the sage arts. anyone have thoughts on pain attacking konoha?

[mahbod]

Originally Posted by SajberToent

He never did but it's reasonable to assume that he would be able to considering how the nine tails is a more powerful beast, nor did the eight tails jinchuuriki ever merit his anti-genjutsu ability to the eight tails, but rather as a general ability for jinchuurikis.

As for the EMS it's no different from a normal Mangekyo Sharingan, except for that it does not rob the user of his eyesight. We haven't seen anything like Sasuke's new Sharingan, it may very well be another version of Madara's EMS or something even greater.



In what way am I underrating Naruto? He's still got the same arsenal of jutsus that he had as a genin (no wait he's still a genin) and his speed nor taijutsu hasn't (relatively at least) improved either. He just got an ultra-1-hit-KO move but since he can't use it liberally that changes nothing, he's still weak and can't compete with the likes of Sasuke. What the hell did he do for 3 whole years?

zzz its his "never give up mentality" sheer power and mass stamina, and ability to take damage, which makes him strong he doesnt need all that other speed and stuff, he has powerrrrrrrr

[Casshern]

As far as killerbee breaking out of tsukiyomi is concerned, imo it's rubbish. Tsukiyomi is instant, you can't break out of it. It's like saying you blocked a punch after taking the punch in the face.

If kishimoto made killerbee receive the full effects of tsukiyomi but had him fully recovered in a few seconds because of his bijuu chakra, that would be somewhat plausible. But to say he broke out of tsukiyomi is a serious error on Kishimoto's behalf that has caused confusion amongst the readers.

In the fight between Team 7 + Chiyo vs Itachi's 30% clone, Chiyo describes the way to fight doujutsu. She says the best way is to have a companion strike either you or the opponent, in order to release you from it. Killerbee claims that the hachibi disturbed his chakra and thus dispelled the genjutsu. It's essentially the same concept as what Chiyo described. However, Kakashi explained to Chiyo that the MS's tsukiyomi can't be dispelled that way because it is instant.

Also, to say Sasuke's tsukiyomi isn't as powerfull as Itachi's is irrelevant. The main characteristic of tsukiyomii is that it's instant. If it's not instant, it's not tsukiyomi.

So in the end, either the jutsu was tsukiyomi and Kishimoto downplayed it too much, or the jutsu wasn't tsukiyomi and Kishi mistakenly made it look like it was.

At this point, the only plausible explanation would be for Kishimoto to have Sasuke say that it was a failed tsukiyomi, that he tried to use that jutsu and it was unsuccesfull. And let killerbee think that he broke out of it...

That's just imo.

[Luce]

I have a thought on what that "tsukiyomi" might be, it might be wrong, but still just a thought. I'm thinking that it could be the paralyzing genjutsu that Itachi used on Orochimaru back in the day and cut his hand off. If you remember it kinda looked like tsukiyomi but Orochimaru clearly stated, "I can't believe you caught me in a paralyzing genjutsu", or something along those lines. This seems to be exactly what happened to Killerbee. It started out looking like tsukiyomi, but then it shows him landing and saying that he couldn't move. Well, this was my thought, your thoughts on my thought

Edit:

Originally Posted by SajberToent

Naruto has kage bunshins, rasengan, another rasengan he can't afford to use, frog summonings and.. and... no wait, that's pretty much it.

Originally Posted by JINBEI

and why wouldn't Naruto afford to summon frogs?

Really now, Naruto was the one to kill him 3 times over

Just to clarify this for you Jinbei, you simply misread Sajber. He said that Naruto has another rasengan, one that he can't afford to use, seeing as he won't be able to use chakra after a while. And the other one is just a technicality. Naruto only destroyed two of Kakuzu's hearts, because Kakishi had to go down and "finish him off." But essentially yes, Naruto did kill him 3 times over.

[HiroInazuma]

Originally Posted by Luce

I have a thought on what that "tsukiyomi" might be, it might be wrong, but still just a thought. I'm thinking that it could be the paralyzing genjutsu that Itachi used on Orochimaru back in the day and cut his hand off. If you remember it kinda looked like tsukiyomi but Orochimaru clearly stated, "I can't believe you caught me in a paralyzing genjutsu", or something along those lines. This seems to be exactly what happened to Killerbee. It started out looking like tsukiyomi, but then it shows him landing and saying that he couldn't move. Well, this was my thought, your thoughts on my thought

I think Tsuyokomi is more of a genjutsu that is so real to the user the mind mistakes it for reality which is the reason it can kill you, I think Kakashi said 'He could've killed me with that jutsu...' or someone said something like that, just like Sasuke sometimes has flashbacks to seeing his clan die, I think its cos the Tsuyokomi implanted the memories of Itachi killing the clan into Sasuke.

If this is true the reason the killer bee might of thought he couldnt move might of been cos his mind thought he was impaled with blades, that stopped his movements.