Dating

[Samari]

Originally Posted by Flinch

Now let's not fight here, as this is for advice (or rather, supposed to be.) Personally, I'm a fan of intellectual debates, but this is gonna turn into mindless bickering within a few more posts, so let's not get there.

Well I know I've moved on.

[idiffer]

where's the mod when you need him, huh?
on topic

"if u can't dazzle them with intelligence, baffle them with bullshit." replace "bullshit" with "truth" and u'll have my opinion. i once told a girl not to lie to me. worked wonders. dunno if she lied or not, but at least she had greater respect for me.

[Flinch]

It's like politics, the better BS you can sell, generally the better off you'll be. But I jest; honesty is important, but more often than not, you don't want the exact truth.

[Kaijo]

Indeed. Some people just can't handle the truth, as the line goes. Of course, you really don't know that until you present them with the truth.

So if someone punishes people for telling the truth, people begin to learn that it's better just to feed the person lies. If truth is punished, then lies prevail. Reward the truth, and you'll get it more often.

[idiffer]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Indeed. Some people just can't handle the truth, as the line goes. Of course, you really don't know that until you present them with the truth.

So if someone punishes people for telling the truth, people begin to learn that it's better just to feed the person lies. If truth is punished, then lies prevail. Reward the truth, and you'll get it more often.

everyone can handle the truth. and we're not talking about extreme cases here. in most cases ppl would be what i said - baffled. and respond in a way they would not usually respond.
and this is about the initial confession talk that started a page or two ago. about how its not wise to tell a girl you liked her out of the blue... what i said was conscerning that topic.

[Kaijo]

Well, what I meant by not being able to handle the truth, is that a lot of people will get upset or angry and either not believe it, or stop talking to you. Yeah, confessing feelings for someone is a difficult thing to do, and doing it in the right way at the time can be difficult to do (wish it was as easy a girl putting a love letter in someone else's shoe box like in anime, heh), but that's why it's a risk.

[Jjo]

Alot of people tend to confuse their personal opinions with truth/fact aswell. Which is not only insanely arrogant but kinda nutty to walk around thinking your opinions on people or anything is the 'truth'.

Unless someone ask for your opinion on something, or someone you are most likely just giving a rude unprovoked douchebag type comment. I actually had to teach my boyfriend this, when he decided that any opinion he had regarding anyone was the "truth" and if they got upset they couldn't 'handle' it. lol It's so silly how arrogant some people are.

[Ricky Controversy]

Originally Posted by Jjo

Alot of people tend to confuse their personal opinions with truth/fact aswell. Which is not only insanely arrogant but kinda nutty to walk around thinking your opinions on people or anything is the 'truth'.

Unless someone ask for your opinion on something, or someone you are most likely just giving a rude unprovoked douchebag type comment. I actually had to teach my boyfriend this, when he decided that any opinion he had regarding anyone was the "truth" and if they got upset they couldn't 'handle' it. lol It's so silly how arrogant some people are.

Well, to think one's opinion is categorically the truth is quite arrogant. However, there's nothing wrong with having confidence in one's judgment and, when the occasion genuinely calls for it, acting on that judgment on your own initiative. It's a question of balance. Someone who decides everything is such and such a way and is unwilling to see alternatives is a fool. Someone who never follows the conviction to act or say something is a coward. Somewhere in the middle is the person who reserves their judgment, considers the situation carefully, and is willing to take bold action if necessary.

[Jjo]

Originally Posted by Ricky Controversy

Well, to think one's opinion is categorically the truth is quite arrogant. However, there's nothing wrong with having confidence in one's judgment and, when the occasion genuinely calls for it, acting on that judgment on your own initiative. It's a question of balance. Someone who decides everything is such and such a way and is unwilling to see alternatives is a fool. Someone who never follows the conviction to act or say something is a coward. Somewhere in the middle is the person who reserves their judgment, considers the situation carefully, and is willing to take bold action if necessary.

You can have all the confidence in your opinions you want and it still wont make it worth any more or less than the next person really. Facts are facts, and opinions are opinions. For me to take someones judgement or opinions regarding another person seriously you better be damn near perfect first. Otherwise, it's just another worthless view.

[yezhanquan]

Be slow to speak, but quick to listen.

[Ricky Controversy]

Originally Posted by Jjo

You can have all the confidence in your opinions you want and it still wont make it worth any more or less than the next person really. Facts are facts, and opinions are opinions. For me to take someones judgement or opinions regarding another person seriously you better be damn near perfect first. Otherwise, it's just another worthless view.

Does someone really have to be perfect for their opinion to have worth? It seems to me that it makes more sense if the worth of an opinion is based on how well they know what they're talking about. For example, one hopes you don't consider your boyfriend to be perfect or even 'damn near' it, since humans aren't capable of that, yet I assume you'd put more value in it if he assessed your personality than if Random Person A did. Why is that? Presumably, because you expect him to know you better.

To deny that there's any substance to someone else's opinion--which, I remind, may often be derived from facts to some degree--seems like a defense mechanism to avoid having to seriously weigh valid criticism. I'll be perfectly honest, one of the most insightful comments I've ever received from anyone regarding my personality came from someone who had only known me for two months or so, but she'd been paying attention in that time. What she said wasn't something I liked hearing, but when I paused to think about it, it turned out it was exactly true. Being open to that sort of feedback can do wonders for your capacity to grow.

[idiffer]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Well, what I meant by not being able to handle the truth, is that a lot of people will get upset or angry and either not believe it, or stop talking to you. Yeah, confessing feelings for someone is a difficult thing to do, and doing it in the right way at the time can be difficult to do (wish it was as easy a girl putting a love letter in someone else's shoe box like in anime, heh), but that's why it's a risk.

well, imho, then that person is not worth it. if he/she gets angry/upset over a confession, i don't want that person.
oh, and i wasn't implying that personal opinion is truth. i meant the banal truth like cows can't fly.

[-Antares-]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Well, what I meant by not being able to handle the truth, is that a lot of people will get upset or angry and either not believe it, or stop talking to you. Yeah, confessing feelings for someone is a difficult thing to do, and doing it in the right way at the time can be difficult to do (wish it was as easy a girl putting a love letter in someone else's shoe box like in anime, heh), but that's why it's a risk.

How do you suggest people react? Even if they react to it calmly, the fact is that if the feelings aren't reciprocated, it's going to change how they interact. It doesn't matter in what situation it happens unless you're dealing with someone whose emotions are swayed extremely easily, or an impulsive person (and I'm pretty sure you'd end up with a failure of a relationship with either type of person after enough time). There's no way to stop your brain from bringing up that one pesky memory that tells you "maybe you shouldn't be so nice to this person won't that make them hurt more" or "i wonder if this person is doing soandso thing because of that."

It happened to me twice, and I'm pretty sure I'm at the point where if it happened again I would get angry. Especially if it was, say, a best friend.

[idiffer]

Originally Posted by Ricky Controversy

Does someone really have to be perfect for their opinion to have worth? It seems to me that it makes more sense if the worth of an opinion is based on how well they know what they're talking about. For example, one hopes you don't consider your boyfriend to be perfect or even 'damn near' it, since humans aren't capable of that, yet I assume you'd put more value in it if he assessed your personality than if Random Person A did. Why is that? Presumably, because you expect him to know you better.

To deny that there's any substance to someone else's opinion--which, I remind, may often be derived from facts to some degree--seems like a defense mechanism to avoid having to seriously weigh valid criticism. I'll be perfectly honest, one of the most insightful comments I've ever received from anyone regarding my personality came from someone who had only known me for two months or so, but she'd been paying attention in that time. What she said wasn't something I liked hearing, but when I paused to think about it, it turned out it was exactly true. Being open to that sort of feedback can do wonders for your capacity to grow.

i say that EVERY opinion/assesment is important regarding almost anything. you store it all in your memory untill facts emerge that allow you to compare them and eliminate others, maybe merge opinions and ideas of different ppl.
wikipedia.
Denial - Refusal to accept external reality because it is too threatening; arguing against an anxiety-provoking stimulus by stating it doesn't exist; resolution of emotional conflict and reduction of anxiety by refusing to perceive or consciously acknowledge the more unpleasant aspects of external reality.

[Jjo]

Originally Posted by Ricky Controversy

Does someone really have to be perfect for their opinion to have worth? It seems to me that it makes more sense if the worth of an opinion is based on how well they know what they're talking about. For example, one hopes you don't consider your boyfriend to be perfect or even 'damn near' it, since humans aren't capable of that, yet I assume you'd put more value in it if he assessed your personality than if Random Person A did. Why is that? Presumably, because you expect him to know you better.

To deny that there's any substance to someone else's opinion--which, I remind, may often be derived from facts to some degree--seems like a defense mechanism to avoid having to seriously weigh valid criticism. I'll be perfectly honest, one of the most insightful comments I've ever received from anyone regarding my personality came from someone who had only known me for two months or so, but she'd been paying attention in that time. What she said wasn't something I liked hearing, but when I paused to think about it, it turned out it was exactly true. Being open to that sort of feedback can do wonders for your capacity to grow.

It depends on what they're giving an opinion on really. If you are the type of person that thinks your opinions regarding other people are worth something even when you aren't asked to give an opinion and see your perception of people as the "cold hard truth" then yes, to me you better be pretty perfect for me personally to find any worth in your opinion.

And no of course I don't find my boyfriend perfect, it's not my concern what he thinks of my personality either...just like I hope he doesn't concern himself with what I think. It should be clear enough that we have been together for two years that our personalities mesh well enough. If there was something I disliked about his personality, and could not tolerate we wouldn't be together in the first place.

Valid criticism is subjective though, lol. I consider criticism related to work or school fine. But otherwise, um no thanks. If you aren't paying my bills, married to me, or handing me a paycheck there is zero reason for me to concern myself with what you think of my personality whether it's positive or negative. Those that are fine with my personality are clearly the people I will be around, rather than those who aren't.

Personally I think people would be better off working on their own self esteem issues, rather than wasting their energy with people whose personality they take issue with. I mean I don't hang out with people I don't get along with for various reasons, doesn't make my reasons valid to anyone else but me.

[Ricky Controversy]

Spoiler for @Jjo:

Originally Posted by Jjo

It depends on what they're giving an opinion on really. If you are the type of person that thinks your opinions regarding other people are worth something even when you aren't asked to give an opinion and see your perception of people as the "cold hard truth" then yes, to me you better be pretty perfect for me personally to find any worth in your opinion.

I think we're agreed on that point: someone who thinks they are the arbiter of truth at all times is never worth listening to.

And no of course I don't find my boyfriend perfect, it's not my concern what he thinks of my personality either...just like I hope he doesn't concern himself with what I think. It should be clear enough that we have been together for two years that our personalities mesh well enough.

Not to nitpick, but neither one necessarily follows from the other. Sure, good interaction increases the odds of a relationship lasting, but I've seen unhealthy relationships carry on seemingly peacefully for years, and I've seen healthy ones tank after a couple weeks.

Valid criticism is subjective though, lol. I consider criticism related to work or school fine. But otherwise, um no thanks. If you aren't paying my bills, married to me, or handing me a paycheck there is zero reason for me to concern myself with what you think of my personality whether it's positive or negative. Those that are fine with my personality are clearly the people I will be around, rather than those who aren't.

Oh, I'm not saying you're obliged to take their opinions to heart by any means. But you seem to be saying you categorically ignore them if unsolicited, which means you'll miss out on a surprising volume of really deep insight.

Personally I think people would be better off working on their own self esteem issues, rather than wasting their energy with people whose personality they take issue with. I mean I don't hang out with people I don't get along with for various reasons, doesn't make my reasons valid to anyone else but me.

My concern is that the nature of one's world can be shaken dramatically at any time, and if your ability to engage the opinions of others is limited to work within such an idyllic context where you have the luxury to choose the people surrounding you, then under more volatile circumstances you'll have real difficulties coping. Being, at the very least, attentive to the world around you makes you more flexible under duress.

Spoiler for Vis a Vis Confessions:

How do you suggest people react? Even if they react to it calmly, the fact is that if the feelings aren't reciprocated, it's going to change how they interact. It doesn't matter in what situation it happens unless you're dealing with someone whose emotions are swayed extremely easily, or an impulsive person (and I'm pretty sure you'd end up with a failure of a relationship with either type of person after enough time). There's no way to stop your brain from bringing up that one pesky memory that tells you "maybe you shouldn't be so nice to this person won't that make them hurt more" or "i wonder if this person is doing soandso thing because of that."

It happened to me twice, and I'm pretty sure I'm at the point where if it happened again I would get angry. Especially if it was, say, a best friend.

Getting angry at the person doesn't really help anything, nor is it necessarily always right. The feeling that a confession puts one 'on the spot' is based on the assumption that accepting or rejecting will make or break that person's heart. If such is the case, then that person had no right to confess as they weren't able to accept the risk of being rejected, and then perhaps being angry at them is fair, albeit nonproductive. But what if they understand and accept that risk, and can absorb either answer thoughtfully and with dignity? In that case, the feeling of anger is quite misplaced.

Only time can really reveal either, so the best way is to respond clearly and honestly, and then pay attention to what follows. Often times the reasons interactions change after such confessions is because of the very assumptions either party makes about how the other 'must' feel, when watching and waiting for a bit could clear so much up.

[idiffer]

Originally Posted by Ricky Controversy

I think we're agreed on that point: someone who thinks they are the arbiter of truth at all times is never worth listening to.

even a broken clock is right two times a day.
seems like everyone just missed my last post. ah well.

[Jjo]

Originally Posted by Ricky Controversy

Not to nitpick, but neither one necessarily follows from the other. Sure, good interaction increases the odds of a relationship lasting, but I've seen unhealthy relationships carry on seemingly peacefully for years, and I've seen healthy ones tank after a couple weeks.
Oh, I'm not saying you're obliged to take their opinions to heart by any means. But you seem to be saying you categorically ignore them if unsolicited, which means you'll miss out on a surprising volume of really deep insight.

My concern is that the nature of one's world can be shaken dramatically at any time, and if your ability to engage the opinions of others is limited to work within such an idyllic context where you have the luxury to choose the people surrounding you, then under more volatile circumstances you'll have real difficulties coping. Being, at the very least, attentive to the world around you makes you more flexible under duress.

It depends on what you'd consider healthy and unhealthy though. =D
See how most things are actually subjective... I have every reason in the world to be single, and very few to actually keep a steady boyfriend at my age..I stopped tolerating people that had qualities I couldn't tolerate a long time ago. That doesn't apply to everyone obviously which is why you have people who constantly complain about their friends, or relationship. >.>
My boyfriend has plenty of little quirks and thing that bug me, but clearly they are not enough for me to say I can't tolerate them. How much someone can tolerate in a relationship or not doesn't define whether it is healthy or not to me.

The thing is, at school and work you don't get to choose the people around you. Which is why the only people I am concerned about when it comes to my personality and the impression I leave are those that I have to be around, and those that I work for. No one is forcing me to go to work or school - it is my choice so obviously I wouldn't take the "screw what you think" attitude towards people in these settings. I do however choose the company I keep, and people I'd consider friends - everyone does.

However others that I don't choose to be around and find themselves injecting their worthless opinions into my life are just that....worthless. I don't find unsolicited opinions insightful or with good intentions at all. People tend to have these things called self-esteem issues, and jealousy and often that comes out when they are giving unsolicited 'opinions' regarding someone else instead of worrying about themselves, and their own life. How anyone finds the time for that I have no idea..>_> jealousy can make people do/say crazy things.

[Nightbat®]

Sometimes the objectivity of a stranger can make you see things in a different perspective

I hold the opinions of friends and family in higher regard than others
but simply to dismiss other people's opinion as worthless because i have no 'connection' to them, seems to me as not wanting to hear anything from outside my 'protected circle'

An opinion has nothing to do with truth
but rather beliefs, some based on true knowledge, others on true fantasies
But even the most unfounded, narrowminded opinions still can make you think

[Ricky Controversy]

So, for a while now, I've had some difficulty with a girl I've known for two years. We got close very quickly, she developed feelings for me that I didn't reciprocate, and after a while she started dating someone else. During that time, her feelings for me seemed to have cooled to the point where I was no longer under consideration, and things were fairly easy between us.

However, she eventually broke up with her boyfriend out of a desire to resume pursuing me, though she didn't explain this until recently. When RB and I were dating, she didn't reveal much of anything, then came after me hard right out the gate when we split. I was angry about that, because it seemed rather exploitative, so I took a few steps back from her. Unfortunately, I am one of the few people in her life that actually provides any sort of support for her--her family is a fractious mess, with a lot of psychological and physical difficulties and entrenched feuds--so when her brother and uncle died in a car accident over the holidays, I couldn't bring myself to stay mad at her. On top of that, while I'm trying to help her come to grips with that, the school district where she works starts debating cutting back on its special needs programs--and she teaches special needs children. Between that and trying to support her grieving mother in the wake of the deaths, she got pretty overwhelmed and had several breakdowns.

That brings us to the present day, where all that has really happened is that she has developed a crushingly heavy dependence on me. I have rejected her advances before, but this time I wasn't really able to control my frustration, and I was rather harsh with her. I told her that a relationship is never going to happen there, and that if she can't detach herself enough from me to be around me without putting all her baggage at my feet, that I will step out of her life permanently. I explained how stifled she made me feel.

I suppose what I'm wondering is...was it fair of me to react that way? It's not like she has been a bad person by any means, nor do I fail to appreciate the weight of the things she has and continues to deal with. What bothers me, and what I notice in many relationships in my age range is that people have this utterly superficial notion about the 'special' nature of romance, that their partner has to be 'the only person they can trust/be themselves with/be honest with/give their best to', or they have to 'need' that person. I can't grasp why people need that, or think that they're ready to have a relationship if they are genuinely pinning a whole part of themselves solely on one person. Personally, I've always decided who I wanted to be with based on "Hey, I like you a lot/love you, let's give it a try" and any more complicated motive than that seems like a bad thing.