(CR) Sousou no Frieren (Frieren: Beyond Journey's End)

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by ryllharu

They deliberately limited the type of spells the examinees could use, under the excuse that it was to protect the other examinees. The magic association had zero doubts about Burg's safety. The test was designed to make mages with powerful magic, like we've seen the entire time in both tests this year, unable to use their full potential to get him to take a step back.

You can hypothesize all you want that the test was intended to make them think in novel ways, but Sense doesn't relay that. What we saw was the selection of a small amphitheater with the examinees standing close by, severely limiting the options of most mages we've seen this year. They go on in detail about how his cloak is impervious to magic to the point that he had never been injured a single time since he completed it. "Imbued with so many defensive spells that no magical attack could penetrate it," (emphasis mine). How exactly were any examinees intended to make him take a step back when they couldn't even use large-scale spells? Lastly, they claim that anything actually powerful enough to blast through it or kill him by any other means (perhaps suffocation?) is disqualification.

The only remaining conclusion we can draw is that the test was specifically designed to make more mages fail for unspecified rationale.

Sense shouldn't have to tell anyone that they need to think in a novel fashion in order to beat the exam, that's the sort of thing they should be able to figure out on their own.

The current test is something you can say that they didn't really intend anyone to pass and even then they did have a clear way to pass they chose not to use. Burg's test was a walk in the park by comparison. Richter, Denken, Lawine and maybe Kanne could have passed easily.

[Liddo-kun]

Originally Posted by TURI123456

Ubel didn't kill Burg on purpose she miscalculated her cut magic.
And the test wasn't to hurt Burg but to move him if Burg took one step the mage was over the test.

I know it wasn't intentional. But the death was so sudden and funny, I had the urge to call it an "assassination".

Originally Posted by Mad Pierrot

No wonder she kept reminding me of Hisoka. Still, the official twitter account for Frieren's anime is not even subtle about the.... fanservice Ubel provides

well then, I need to visit the official twitter account.

anyone here has a link?

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Übel as a substantive (which is how the German names in Frieren are mostly used) doesn't literally translate to "evil", btw, more something like "Malady" or "Illness", at least in common use in German. For "Evil" we would use "Böse", as in "Das Böse".

Ah, thank you for the correction! I saw this stated somewhere at some point but never bothered to carefully source it. It's still a bit on the nose, but not *that* much.

Originally Posted by GDB

Forget if the anime stated so, but the preview at the end of the episode at least had a line that said "The third test will now begin."

Ah yeah, I missed that too, but yeah I also expected it. Still, though, two episodes left so this time they can't drag it out that much.

Originally Posted by Liddo-kun

I know it wasn't intentional. But the death was so sudden and funny, I had the urge to call it an "assassination".

I honestly couldn't tell if it was truly unintentional, or was one of those "oops, my hand slipped" sort of "unintentional." Her lack of remorse could honestly support either interpretation, and I feel like that probably suits her just fine.

[ryllharu]

Originally Posted by Endscape

The current test is something you can say that they didn't really intend anyone to pass and even then they did have a clear way to pass they chose not to use. Burg's test was a walk in the park by comparison. Richter, Denken, Lawine and maybe Kanne could have passed easily.

Of all the abilities we've seen them use that could move Burg, all of them would have not been allowed to use them, "for the safety of the other examinees".

Richter maybe, but that's depending on exactly what the cloak blocks. We'll never know. This series is very loose with its rules about magic (if you actually look back, it has next to none), so we have to take them at their word when the characters discuss it.

I will still argue that even if Frieren and Fern were not present, Sense's clone alone would have caused the majority of them lethal damage requiring breaking the bottle. All the mages felt pretty hopeless about her except for Ubel. We know that no one has passed her proctored exams until now.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by ryllharu

Of all the abilities we've seen them use that could move Burg, all of them would have not been allowed to use them, "for the safety of the other examinees".

Richter maybe, but that's depending on exactly what the cloak blocks. We'll never know. This series is very loose with its rules about magic (if you actually look back, it has next to none), so we have to take them at their word when the characters discuss it.

I will still argue that even if Frieren and Fern were not present, Sense's clone alone would have caused the majority of them lethal damage requiring breaking the bottle. All the mages felt pretty hopeless about her except for Ubel. We know that no one has passed her proctored exams until now.

Richter, Methode, Edel, Ehre, Denken, Wirbel, and Land are all currently second-class, meaning they either passed Burg's test or something similar.

Kanne, Lawine, Laufen, Scharf, and Fern are in third-class.

Blei, Dunst (Edel's teammates), Länge, and Ton (the arrogant guy) are unspecified.

[shmaster]

Originally Posted by Endscape

Burg's test was a walk in the park by comparison. Richter, Denken, Lawine and maybe Kanne could have passed easily.

Technically it should be a walk in the park for anyone.
The exam never demands that Burg has to be the target of magic cast.
In other words, anyone is free the destroy the piece of the platform he is standing on.
Just keep on shooting the floor next to him repeatedly with Zoltraak until the platform is unstable enough that Burg will fell on his own.

[ryllharu]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

Richter, Methode, Edel, Ehre, Denken, Wirbel, and Land are all currently second-class, meaning they either passed Burg's test or something similar.

100% speculation.

We could also say all of them are in the military, from prestigious magic families, or the magic academies, so they were all given easier exams than Ubel's cohort.

See how easy it is to make stuff up about the gaps in the lore this series has?

[TURI123456]

Originally Posted by ryllharu

They deliberately limited the type of spells the examinees could use, under the excuse that it was to protect the other examinees. The magic association had zero doubts about Burg's safety. The test was designed to make mages with powerful magic, like we've seen the entire time in both tests this year, unable to use their full potential to get him to take a step back.

You can hypothesize all you want that the test was intended to make them think in novel ways, but Sense doesn't relay that. What we saw was the selection of a small amphitheater with the examinees standing close by, severely limiting the options of most mages we've seen this year. They go on in detail about how his cloak is impervious to magic to the point that he had never been injured a single time since he completed it. "Imbued with so many defensive spells that no magical attack could penetrate it," (emphasis mine). How exactly were any examinees intended to make him take a step back when they couldn't even use large-scale spells? Lastly, they claim that anything actually powerful enough to blast through it or kill him by any other means (perhaps suffocation?) is disqualification.

The only remaining conclusion we can draw is that the test was specifically designed to make more mages fail for unspecified rationale.

We saw a mage that shot on Burg's fire, ice, and lightning (one of those attacks almost hit the mage that shot those attacks so limits are necessary), even more than this it seemed if Ubel wasn't killing Burg she was passing the test. So based on that I don't think that was anything special against the people that took the test at the time.
They didn't need to worry about Burg because nobody thought that there was a danger for him maybe it was too arrogant for them but they had a good reason not to be worried about him.
About the part that the exams are not fair and too hard, those exams are supposed to be hard they test people for a job that not only will give them high status in society but also will give them some privileges.
About Sense, she never said that the exam is about inviting a new thinking way. She just tried to make the examines in the exam work together to end her exam, and even with her clone in the dungeon, they could end it actually even with Sense's clone, Denken group almost ended the dungeon if not Frieren's clone more mages were finished this exam.

Denken and Richter are already second-class mages, so they had needed to over that kind of test before.

Originally Posted by Endscape

Sense shouldn't have to tell anyone that they need to think in a novel fashion in order to beat the exam, that's the sort of thing they should be able to figure out on their own.

The current test is something you can say that they didn't really intend anyone to pass and even then they did have a clear way to pass they chose not to use. Burg's test was a walk in the park by comparison. Richter, Denken, Lawine and maybe Kanne could have passed easily.

Why do you say, that Lawine and Kanne could over that kind of exam? I don't say that I disagree but I'm curious to know why you think that way.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by ryllharu

We know that no one has passed her proctored exams until now.

I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I take issue on Genau setting up a test that would lead to causalities. But Sense provided a means to minimize and even prevent causalities so there's nothing wrong with her test.

Sense has no obligation to make the test easy. If anything, it would be counterproductive to do so, because first class mages are supposed to take on demon subjugation quests. If they aren't real tough, they won't survive.

Besides, even if Ubel didn't take part in the exam, they could have defeated the Sense clone using team work. Put Wirbel, Methode and Denken to fight together and you have a winning team. Methode is very sensitive to mana so the clone would lose the element of surprise. That alone would give them a solid chance.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by ryllharu

100% speculation.

We could also say all of them are in the military, from prestigious magic families, or the magic academies, so they were all given easier exams than Ubel's cohort.

See how easy it is to make stuff about the gaps in the lore this series has?

You sure aren't good at it.

All qualifications have been centralized under the same Continental Magic Association since Serie started it 50 years ago.

If what you're suggesting is that they play favorites based on nepotism and status, then Lawine shouldn't have failed since she literally comes from a rich family who has older brothers in the Association.

[ryllharu]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I take issue on Genau setting up a test that would lead to causalities. But Sense provided a means to minimize and even prevent causalities so there's nothing wrong with her test.

Sense has no obligation to make the test easy. If anything, it would be counterproductive to do so, because first class mages are supposed to take on demon subjugation quests. If they aren't real tough, they won't survive.

Besides, even if Ubel didn't take part in the exam, they could have defeated the Sense clone using team work. Put Wirbel, Methode and Denken to fight together and you have a winning team. Methode is very sensitive to mana so the clone would lose the element of surprise. That alone would give them a solid chance.

I agree with all of this, except the reason for Methode.

Methode (apparently) has whatever abilities the story needs to her have for any given moderate dilemma. That's her real ability. The story needed to account for Fern's clone, so in addition to her beam reversal shield (perfectly unique and fine to have), specialization in mind magic and binding magic because they eliminated or sidelined three other mages with those skillsets, her significant healing skill because people needed to survive Sense's clone, they also gave her exceptional mana sense.

edit:

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

All qualifications have been centralized under the same Continental Magic Association since Serie started it 50 years ago.

If what you're suggesting is that they play favorites based on nepotism and status, then Lawine shouldn't have failed since she literally comes from a rich family who has older brothers in the Association.

Your petty ad hominem attacks aside, Lawine and Kanne are both recent graduates from the academy, or they still go, that's not clear.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by ryllharu

Your petty ad hominem attacks aside, Lawine and Kanne are both recent graduates from the academy, or they still go, that's not clear.

I fail to see how this proves Ubel was given an unfair test. The ones that are known to have connections to first-class mages like Ehre and Lawine weren't given an easy pass for the first class exam, so it's not likely that they were given one for second-class given that it's the same group of people in charge.

That's also ignoring the fact that as mages they clearly should be able to control their strength.
Ubel's clone didn't bisect Land, so she clearly could have held back against Burg.

Richter also held back against Kanne and Lawine, and Frieren and Fern hold back all the time.
In what scenario are you thinking of that would prevent them from doing anything?

[ChronoReverse]

Are we seriously entertaining the wild conjectures that there is nepotism in these exams? Why even bother when this is the person who calls things they didn't like "deus ex machina" and "plot contrivance" regardless of whether it really was, demonstrating clearly the level of thought they have.


This same person calls out others for "100% conjecture" while zooming along with massive conjectures the entire time.

[ryllharu]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

I fail to see how this proves Ubel was given an unfair test. The ones that are known to have connections to first-class mages like Ehre and Lawine weren't given an easy pass for the first class exam, so it's not likely that they were given one for second-class given that it's the same group of people in charge.

That's also ignoring the fact that as mages they clearly should be able to control their strength.
Ubel's clone didn't bisect Land, so she clearly could have held back against Burg.

Richter also held back against Kanne and Lawine, and Frieren and Fern hold back all the time.
In what scenario are you thinking of that would prevent them from doing anything?

You seem to be countering with points that I'm not bringing up?

Ubel clearly stated she didn't hold back enough. The test itself is unfair, not her performance. She didn't argue over her disqualification. She states exactly that to Sense.

What I did say is that Ubel's entire cohort was given a purposefully unfair test, designed to make more of them fail with its restrictive rules. Take the emotion out and read my responses, please.

The more recent takeaway from this discussion that I'm asking you to be receptive towards is that Frieren (the series) has exceptionally loose lore. There's huge gaps in the series composition, that are nearly seamlessly backfilled. That's not a bad thing. But it does show that the series was never particularly well-planned from the beginning. Lots of series aren't. What Frieren (the series) is good at is making it seem like it is well-planned, by keeping recently introduced concepts vague, then expanding on them later. There's some very clear contradictions concerning many details of the series' setting.

I'm also not saying anything I'm speculating is true. I'm pointing out that if the series doesn't explicitly state it, it can't be used as rationale in a discussion, because its lore is so open-ended and very frequently backfilled. It doesn't have a consistent magic system. It doesn't even have rules for its magic system. The politics of the world is basically made up as the main party go along. This isn't negative criticism. But don't try to extrapolate beyond what the series verbally states or shows. Because it has changed as the series has gone along.

The criticism I do have is almost entirely restricted to THIS arc and THESE new characters. Because I don't think this arc or the new side characters are as consistent, well composed, and the writing just isn't as good, as everything that proceeded it.

[TURI123456]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

You sure aren't good at it.

All qualifications have been centralized under the same Continental Magic Association since Serie started it 50 years ago.

If what you're suggesting is that they play favorites based on nepotism and status, then Lawine shouldn't have failed since she literally comes from a rich family who has older brothers in the Association.

If you send so many people against Sense's clone, Denken's clone, Methode's clone, and Wirbel's clone, will still be free to attack and you will find yourself with a lack of people who can fight against those clones...
If I need to say my personal opinion, Denken's clone alone was strong enough to win against Wirbel's group and it was the clone alone against three strong mages.
By the way, they don't need to win against Sense's clone they just need to buy time against it until someone takes the Spiegel out.

Don't you agree about this?

Originally Posted by ryllharu

I agree with all of this, except the reason for Methode.

Methode (apparently) has whatever abilities the story needs to her have for any given moderate dilemma. That's her real ability. The story needed to account for Fern's clone, so in addition to her beam reversal shield (perfectly unique and fine to have), specialization in mind magic and binding magic because they eliminated or sidelined three other mages with those skillsets, her significant healing skill because people needed to survive Sense's clone, they also gave her exceptional mana sense.

edit:



Your petty ad hominem attacks aside, Lawine and Kanne are both recent graduates from the academy, or they still go, that's not clear.

Methode isn't the main reason that people survived against Sense's clone the golems are the main reason.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by ryllharu

Of all the abilities we've seen them use that could move Burg, all of them would have not been allowed to use them, "for the safety of the other examinees".

Richter maybe, but that's depending on exactly what the cloak blocks. We'll never know. This series is very loose with its rules about magic (if you actually look back, it has next to none), so we have to take them at their word when the characters discuss it.

You sure do lack imagination. You don't need wide range magic or actually any kind of powerful magic at all to pass Burg's test. Richter for example could have simply destabilized the ground under his feet to get him to fall back. Easy.

I will still argue that even if Frieren and Fern were not present, Sense's clone alone would have caused the majority of them lethal damage requiring breaking the bottle. All the mages felt pretty hopeless about her except for Ubel. We know that no one has passed her proctored exams until now.

I'll agree that Sense should have stayed out of it because she made it unnecessarily harder, but there was a simple method to pass that people avoided so they're at fault.

Originally Posted by TURI123456

Why do you say, that Lawine and Kanne could over that kind of exam? I don't say that I disagree but I'm curious to know why you think that way.

Lawine is an ice mage, just create ice under his feet and get him to slip.

Originally Posted by ryllharu

Ubel clearly stated she didn't hold back enough. The test itself is unfair, not her performance. She didn't argue over her disqualification. She states exactly that to Sense.

What I did say is that Ubel's entire cohort was given a purposefully unfair test, designed to make more of them fail with its restrictive rules. Take the emotion out and read my responses, please.

Again, the test was perfectly fair and easy to pass. It's not their fault most of the test takers were stupid.

[ryllharu]

Originally Posted by TURI123456

Methode isn't the main reason that people survived against Sense's clone the golems are the main reason.

Edel's companion that I never bothered to learn the name of (because we're not likely to see him ever again once this arc is over) had a grievous shoulder wound, bleeding significantly. But he had helpful hints to confirm to the team so they had to keep him around! It would have been better writing to have him use his bottle once he had delivered the info.

Sense certainly wasn't going to help him because she wasn't going to interfere in the exam...besides her clone being present as a threat.

So Methode of all people happens to have a holy book and know how to heal? Frieren also had a holy book revealed in a previous arc, but the author chose to slap another ability onto Methode, because why not?

[TURI123456]

Originally Posted by Endscape

You sure do lack imagination. You don't need wide range magic or actually any kind of powerful magic at all to pass Burg's test. Richter for example could have simply destabilized the ground under his feet to get him to fall back. Easy.



I'll agree that Sense should have stayed out of it because she made it unnecessarily harder, but there was a simple method to pass that people avoided so they're at fault.



Lawine is an ice mage, just create ice under his feet and get him to slip.



Again, the test was perfectly fair and easy to pass. It's not their fault most of the test takers were stupid.

Go over again Lawine's fights, she can't freeze the ground against someone so strong.
Although I don't say that she is unable to over that kind of exam.

I disagree with you Sense clone maybe wasn't "a fair" thing to deal with but it's not supposed to be fair to begin with. They take an exam for a very dangerous job so they can find themself in much more danger and an "unfair" situations than this if they over the exam.

I do agree that the exam could be easier depending on who is in charge of the exam. However, I don't think that we saw something so unfair until now.

[Liddo-kun]

Originally Posted by ryllharu

Edel's companion that I never bothered to learn the name of (because we're not likely to see him ever again once this arc is over) had a grievous shoulder wound, bleeding significantly. But he had helpful hints to confirm to the team so they had to keep him around! It would have been better writing to have him use his bottle once he had delivered the info.

referring to the part I put in bold.

his name is Dunste. He is another pair of hands. It's a waste to send out someone willing to cooperate. Heal him so he could he help. Dunste helped Kanne keep the Richter clone busy.

[ryllharu]

Originally Posted by Liddo-kun

referring to the part I put in bold.

his name is Dunste. He is another pair of hands. It's a waste to send out someone willing to cooperate. Heal him so he could he help. Dunste helped Kanne keep the Richter clone busy.

Which Frieren could have done with her previously established triage capability instead of Methode being a mage-priest-etc. with every skill needed at the moment.